Barrel advice 400 H&H

[Pheroze]

Maybe you could get the 24 inch barrel of medium weight and if you don't like the way it handles then you could get a gunsmith to shorten.

That is probably a sensible way to proceed.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Average loss of muzzle velocity is 25fps per inch of barrel. For offhand shooting accuracy, I'd want a rifle that balances well.

 

[Shawn.54]

Twist and number of grooves in rifleing can be confusing in the black powder world speed of bullet as well as length of bullet dictates twist. In my .54 rifle a round ball twist is 1 in 72 for conical bullets 1 in 28 in my .54 pistole a round ball twist is 1 in 20. The pistole operates on about 2/3 the powder the rifle does so it needs faster twist to stabilize the ball (so I was told).
I looked on Pac-Nor site and all the .40ish calibers all seemed to be offered in 10-16 twist with choice of 6 or 8 grooves. Why the difference in twist for bullets that are so close in diameter and same weight is beyond my thinking. Then you have the barrel I ordered in 404 Jeffery, twist choice was 1-9 3 groove or 1-14 9 grooves.

Whatever the formula is to get these numbers I would lean towards the faster twists. With bullets getting more copper than lead their length is growing a partition/ A frame is longer than a cup and core, the North Fork with solid base is even longer, solid monos even more so, then expanding monos are longer yet to offset hollow point.
My 200gr mono is .06 longer than 250gr game kings in .375.
I may have wasted your time and mine explaining my opinion but it's a slow day at work.
Shawn

 

[Pheroze]

Twist and number of grooves in rifleing can be confusing in the black powder world speed of bullet as well as length of bullet dictates twist. In my .54 rifle a round ball twist is 1 in 72 for conical bullets 1 in 28 in my .54 pistole a round ball twist is 1 in 20. The pistole operates on about 2/3 the powder the rifle does so it needs faster twist to stabilize the ball (so I was told).
I looked on Pac-Nor site and all the .40ish calibers all seemed to be offered in 10-16 twist with choice of 6 or 8 grooves. Why the difference in twist for bullets that are so close in diameter and same weight is beyond my thinking. Then you have the barrel I ordered in 404 Jeffery, twist choice was 1-9 3 groove or 1-14 9 grooves.

Whatever the formula is to get these numbers I would lean towards the faster twists. With bullets getting more copper than lead their length is growing a partition/ A frame is longer than a cup and core, the North Fork with solid base is even longer, solid monos even more so, then expanding monos are longer yet to offset hollow point.
My 200gr mono is .06 longer than 250gr game kings in .375.
I may have wasted your time and mine explaining my opinion but it's a slow day at work.
Shawn

Sounds like solid advice. Question, why choose more grooves rather than less? The number of grooves seems to be related to rate of twist

 

[Shawn.54]

That is beyond me I'm in the process of finding out not seeing a whole lot of explanation yet.
404 1-14 9 grooves why is it different?
The answer to this could hold the meaning of life.
Shawn

 

[Hogpatrol]

Sounds like solid advice. Question, why choose more grooves rather than less? The number of grooves seems to be related to rate of twist

I like the 3 groove, more meat in the throat for wear considerations shooting hot loads in known barrel burners. For everything else, 4 groove works.

From accurate shooter site, hope this helps.

What Is the Best Number of Grooves?
Barrel-makers report that, as long as the ratio of lands to grooves is relatively constant, there is no demonstrable difference in accuracy among 3-,4-,5-,6- and 8-groove barrel designs. Krieger has told us “There isn’t any advantage to the shooter. Assuming the ratio of the surface area is kept the same, the number of grooves should not have any effect. Barrel makers use different numbers of grooves for ease of manufacturing and … marketing hype.” That said, in our experience, 8-groove barrels are a little slower, and may foul a bit more quickly because there are more edges to cut into the bullet’s jacket and to trap powder residue. We see no reason not to specify a 4-groove barrel if that is your preference. Moreover, IBS Hunter Champion Al Nyhus and others have had great success with Lilja 3-groove barrels. Al believes the 3-groove design cleans up more quickly and yields a bit more velocity. Famed gunsmith and wildcatter P.O. Ackley believed that, all things considered, a properly-made 3-groove barrel is optimal for most common calibers. Ackley believed 3-groove profiles can deliver higher velocities with less fouling and no significant reduction in accuracy.

 

[Shawn.54]

There it is that is better than I have come up with so far. Now Hogpatrol what's the meaning of life.
Shawn

 

[Hogpatrol]

There it is that is better than I have come up with so far. Now Hogpatrol what's the meaning of life.
Shawn

At the end of the game Kings and pawns all go in the same box.

 

[tarbe]

The greatest issue I have seen regarding the number and depth of groove is when shooting cast bullets.

Generally, the Micro-Groove barrels did not do as well with cast...the softer bullets needing generally deeper engagement to avoid stripping, etc. Also as mentioned previously, fewer edges for less fouling/leading.

And no way would I ever argue with P.O. Ackley. If he says stay with fewer lands/grooves...done deal. I'd stick with 3 or 4.

 

[lockingblock]

I've always wondered by there were so many differences in rifling views among the various shooting sports...and even within them.

On the competitive precision rifle side...many people are enamoured with 5R rifling "Obermeyer Style" and gain twist. Usually this comes from Bartlein although Douglas used to say that they never knew gain twist was a big deal as they always put a small amount of gain into their twist rate. Then Tubb wrote in his book that he prefers Schneider's profile P5 or whatever it was called that was similar to Glock/Poly rifling as it seals better and is more gentle on the bullets. Other makers don't like it because they say it is hard to polish and can only be done with a button.

Plus, twist rates have gotten much faster than they used to be...overstabilization isn't looked at as being a bad thing as it helps the bullet go through transonic flight without tumbling. I routinely see 30 cal barrels that are 8 or 9 twist...and you used to see 11 or 12 as the standard for 308 or similar.

 

[lockingblock]

On a slightly side note, does anyone have a link to factory 400H&H ammo or brass?

 

[Pheroze]

On a slightly side note, does anyone have a link to factory 400H&H ammo or brass?

There are no factory options. Qual-cart makes brass, and it can be obtained through midway

 

[ChrisG]

On a slightly side note, does anyone have a link to factory 400H&H ammo or brass?

The best way to amass a load of brass for this would be to fireform it from .375 H&H brass, which is both cheap and plentiful. Unfortunately it will have the wrong headstamp but you'd basically have to be blind to not notice the difference.

 

[Pheroze]

The best way to amass a load of brass for this would be to fireform it from .375 H&H brass, which is both cheap and plentiful. Unfortunately it will have the wrong headstamp but you'd basically have to be blind to not notice the difference.

You can get an expander die from CH4D. But, Qual-cart makes properly head stamped cases....well, when some ass doesn't buy up the entire stock

 

[ChrisG]

You can get an expander die from CH4D. But, Qual-cart makes properly head stamped cases....well, when some ass doesn't buy up the entire stock

The problem I have always found with expander dies is that they almost never produce a uniform neck thickness which means that the bullet will be slightly off center and your brass will split earlier. Fireforming produces a more uniform neck in most cases due to the speed at which it is accomplished.

And... Oh my goodness, you must have almost as much into brass now as the rifle itself cost!!

 

[Pheroze]

And... Oh my goodness, you must have almost as much into brass now as the rifle itself cost!!

Funny story, I bought a bunch from one supplier, who took a while to get it. I forgot I ordered it and order the same amount from another place....

The problem I have always found with expander dies is that they almost never produce a uniform neck thickness which means that the bullet will be slightly off center and your brass will split earlier. Fireforming produces a more uniform neck in most cases due to the speed at which it is accomplished.

So, how is that done? I thought you would still need the die to expand to .411.?

 

[ChrisG]

Funny story, I bought a bunch from one supplier, who took a while to get it. I forgot I ordered it and order the same amount from another place....



So, how is that done? I thought you would still need the die to expand to .411.?

It can be done by first, running a .375 up into the .400 H&H dies without the expander ball in place. Once it has the .400's shoulder, anneal the neck of the case, then using a small charge of fast burning powder and filling the case with cream of wheat. It will headspace on the belt and the little false shoulder you created by running it into the sizing die. When it is fired, the cream of wheat will blow out the case to fill the chamber. You are only blowing out .036" so not much at all. Annealing will just keep it from cracking. I don't have specific load data for you because I have never fireformed .375 H&H cases, but it is unusual for it to be more than a couple grains. Here is a great video showing how it is done. This guy is blowing out 8mm to .416 and he doesn't even get cracked cases.