Barnes TSX vs Swift A-Frame on Buffalo

[375Fox]

Fair enough, I guess I had forgotten you already have A-Frames in hand.

Wouldn't the idea of "energy dumping" make the A Frame superior? I heard Doctari assert it's 100% about tissue destruction and hydrostatic shock, which lines up with the view I've held for quite a long time.

FWIW, the shot on my cow a couple months back was a raking shot (not intentionally, she turned as I was pulling the trigger), entry just in front of the rumen on the left side. That 286 gr A Frame penetrated about 4' and lodged in the offside shoulder. I imagine if she hadn't turned and the bullet had gone where I was originally aiming, I'd have found 2 wounds. Can't remember if I've already mentioned it or not, but my load is at 2475 fps, so 375 H&H territory.

Trying to remember which PH I heard talking about 9.3 vs 375 (a penetration discussion), may have been Robertson, saying he preferred the 9.3 because of the lower probability of a bullet exiting and hitting another buff.

Anyway, I think we're straining at gnats. Both bullets have a stellar history on cape buffalo.

Even though you got deep penetration with your 286 gr swift, I still wouldn’t expect an exit had it been a broadside shot if it fully mushroomed. I’d really love to be able to see a slow motion camera of it but I’ve found 375 300 gr swift and trophy bonded bear claw (very similar mushroom) on broadside shots on plains game down to 30 yards on skin on opposite side that I didn’t expect to find. I would think the skin must act something like an elastic when it stops the bullet protruding out before coming back on certain shots. I also think the energy theory adds little value in this case between these two bullets. Even if the TSX exits. It will have lost nearly all its velocity, so nearly all its energy was put into the animal and most of it early in the wound channel. Energy is 0.5*mass*velocity squared. The amount put into an animal is the difference on bullet entry and bullet exit (or stop). But I do think there is a lot of value in not exiting hunting buffalo. Just a lot safer hunting in a herd. I don’t remember any discussion about penetration between a 9.3 and 375 but in his podcasts Kevin Robertson like the 9.3 as a client rental rifle because very mild recoil. I can’t recall any other reason.

 

[sgt_zim]

Even though you got deep penetration with your 286 gr swift, I still wouldn’t expect an exit had it been a broadside shot if it fully mushroomed. I’d really love to be able to see a slow motion camera of it but I’ve found 375 300 gr swift and trophy bonded bear claw (very similar mushroom) on broadside shots on plains game down to 30 yards on skin on opposite side that I didn’t expect to find. I would think the skin must act something like an elastic when it stops the bullet protruding out before coming back on certain shots. I also think the energy theory adds little value in this case between these two bullets. Even if the TSX exits. It will have lost nearly all its velocity, so nearly all its energy was put into the animal and most of it early in the wound channel. Energy is 0.5*mass*velocity squared. The amount put into an animal is the difference on bullet entry and bullet exit (or stop). But I do think there is a lot of value in not exiting hunting buffalo. Just a lot safer hunting in a herd. I don’t remember any discussion about penetration between a 9.3 and 375 but in his podcasts Kevin Robertson like the 9.3 as a client rental rifle because very mild recoil. I can’t recall any other reason.

I honestly don't remember who I was listening to, been listening to a lot of him lately, maybe I'm confusing him with somebody else. Too bad @doctari505 isn't still hanging around to chime in.

​

 

[Bos en Dal SAFARIS]

@JG26Irish_2

I shoot both Barnes and Swift out of different calibers, and both have exceptionally good bullets. I have a 375H&H, which I load with Swift A frames. It has successfully killed many buff with a bullet yet to fail. Weight retention averaged 90%, with the best being 96% and the worst being 85%. The picture shows all swift bullets from my 375H&H recovered from Buffalo.

Barnes n 375 I cannot comment on, but what I have seen in the past is that with Barnes tsx bullets out of my 7x57 sometimes does not leave a good blood trail.

All the best

 

[Lance Hopper]

I apologize First, as I did not read the entire thread, so I am not sure if this recommendation has already been made. Please do not look past Cutting Edge bullets as an option. In my mind for dangerous game they are the most superior bullet on the market, bar none. I have been loading this bullet for a buddy of mine who has killed multiple buffalo and elephant with Cutting Edge bullets. 450 nitro express. Exceptionally light for caliber bullets. .295gr. “Softs”, and 325gr. Solids. Very few recovered. Personally, I am of the Camp that believes the bullet should make two holes. 1 in, one out. As a personal testimony, the last deer, I shot with my 222 Remington with a 40 grain, Cutting Edge maximus, I hit the deer in the shoulder blade at a quartering too,angle shot. The bullet exited behind the last rib on the offside. The deer went about 20 yards, wobbled, and fell over dead. I know it’s not dangerous game experience with this particular bullet, but the personal experience I have with my friends 450 nitro Express with the ammo I have loaded for him is unquestionable.

 

[Piet-Vis]

I recently bought a few boxes of Norma Ammo loaded with 270 grain TSX.
I most lly use my 375 for problem animal control as I though the lighter 270 grain bullet would give me a bit for reach for crocs and hippos thst are not always obliging to stand hear.
I used my 375 for my recent Eland and Sable hunt. Neither bullet fully penetrated, and neither "flowered" well. The bullet in the left was retrieved from the Sable.
On Tuesday I was as called to attend to a Hippo that was responsible for the death of two villagers. I shot it at 80m on the ear, with the animal standing dead square. I was flabbergasted to find that the 375 did not fully penetrate the skull. The villagers openened the scull with a axe, and found the bullet, not underneath the opposite skin, but only having penetrated 3/4 through. I guess that it lost more than 50% of its weight.
I am NOT taking a 270 grain TSX on a DG hunt again!

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I recently bought a few boxes of Norma Ammo loaded with 270 grain TSX.
I most lly use my 375 for problem animal control as I though the lighter 270 grain bullet would give me a bit for reach for crocs and hippos thst are not always obliging to stand hear.
I used my 375 for my recent Eland and Sable hunt. Neither bullet fully penetrated, and neither "flowered" well. The bullet in the left was retrieved from the Sable.
On Tuesday I was as called to attend to a Hippo that was responsible for the death of two villagers. I shot it at 80m on the ear, with the animal standing dead square. I was flabbergasted to find that the 375 did not fully penetrate the skull. The villagers openened the scull with a axe, and found the bullet, not underneath the opposite skin, but only having penetrated 3/4 through. I guess that it lost more than 50% of its weight.

I am NOT taking a 270 grain TSX on a DG hunt again! View attachment 642694

PV - Thank you for sharing these experiences. Those are interesting results. I saw a similar result with a 300wm using Barnes LRX on an American Bison (not mine). The bullet hit at about 3000fps and shed all of its petals but did kill the animal. Not a fail but not ideal result either. With your 270g bullets do you have any idea what the muzzle vel was? I am wondering out loud if the Barnes may be prone to breaking up like this when impacting much faster than its usual velocity for caliber? Just a theory. Anybody out there who has used the TTSX, TSX or LRX is some of the very fast calibers like 300PRC, 300RUM, Weatherfbys, 243, etc where the MV us well over 3000fps? Did they break up?

 

[ve7poi]

I’ve Used both calls,
400 gr tsx in 404J frost shot through shoulders spun and second in neck drt
470 NE dropped first shot then got up and ran around bush stopped to see what hit him two more 500g woodleigh softs ran 20 feet and down for the count
375 H&H 270 gr raw end to end on bear and dropped drt
I’ll use these as aframes are scarcer than hens teeth in Canada currently

 

[rookhawk]

Both are good bullets with excellent track records. What I like about the A-Frame is that it has 98% weight retention while operating at a broader swath of impact velocities.

Copper doesn't expand naturally, it has to be fabricated to create those petals which they have done quite well. In theory, the performance of the A-Frame would work better regardless if it hits bone early or later in the wound channel. The TSX petals may open later (when more resistance is found) or may fragment early (upon initial impact to a shoulder).

Are these critiques real? Mostly theoretical, just understanding their construction. I've shot both. I think a-frames are the gold standard. TSX is in the running with other bullets one-tier down in my mind, but wholly acceptable.

I am looking for input from a broad spectrum of this forum since it contains experienced PH's and Hunters alike. I am booked to hunt Cape Buffalo next year in 2025 and have been testing loads and plan to settle on that this fall in time to allow more practice and tuning with my chosen loads. I am not reloading for a variety of reasons and will work with factory loads. I will be using a 375HH CRF rifle. I thought I had settled on 300g Swift A-Frame with a pair of Woodleigh Hydro cup point solids in the bottom of the mag in event of a charge. But recent results by my PH and another client has given me cause for at least reconsideration. For reference, all three loads shoot to the same POI and all are very accurate in my rifle. When I take the trouble to shoot them at 100y off of the bench, they all shoot under 1" groups and more often than not those groups are closer to 1/2". We will not shoot at buff further than 100y away. In fact the ideal range should be 70-80y for the first shot. That is close enough for max impact while being far enough to allow time for at least two more shots by me should the animal want to charge and would also allow enough time for the PH to get in a pair of shots if needed. My rifle holds 4 rounds but if loaded carefully, you can get one in the chamber with four in the mag for a total of five.

Please read on and then offer your experiences.

I believe in always trying to learn more all the time when it comes to shooting, hunting, bullet performance, etc. My own experience is most important but it is more efficient to learn what we can from others. Until recently, I had never hunted with Barnes or Swift bullets. In North America, for most game those heavy bullets were just not needed. So, my experience was very limited. Most of my larger game were taken with 308 using 165g Nosler BT's or with 270 using 130g BT's. They worked so well, that I never needed much more.

In Africa on a recent PG safari, I took five animals with a 308 loaded with Fusion 180g bonded bullets and they were like hunting with Thor's Hammer. One shot and DRT in every case. I was uber impressed with them. I took one larger beast with a 375HH loaded with 300g TSX bullets and it did fine but also required three shots to finish it. Yeah the first shot killed it but it ran a short distance and then wallowed around until I could finish the job. Effective but less of a hammer than the smaller, faster 308.

My PH in Africa posted the pic below this morning from a client hunt on his reserve in SA. It was a particular Cape Buffalo bull that had a "Bad Attitude". I knew this bull having encountered him with a small herd of others while hunting plains game this summer at the same place. He called him a "Cheeky Bastid", lol. I was scheduled to hunt Cape Buffalo next year with him. This bull trotted forward to guard his herd from us when we got a bit too close. When he showed me this bull, I asked him about hunting for it next year? He said that unfortunately it had a date with another client later this year. A few days ago, the client dropped that bull with a 375HH. Since, I planned to likely use the same caliber on my hunt, I was asking him this morning which bullet was used and how well did it perform? I was pleased to learn that the client used a 375 and two of my Barnes 375HH loads that I had left with him this summer when I went home. I told him then, that he could use as much of them as he wanted, as long as he saved me a few for my buff hunt. I was very pleased to hear him report that the Barnes TSX was likely the most effective bullet on Buffalo that he had ever witnessed. He was even thinking about using them in his backup rifle in the future.

I have never had much experience hunting with these copper only bullets and was having trouble getting comfortable with them. My rifle shoots them great but I had the opinion that they are slow to expand and as such were slow to dump energy into the target. Perhaps that is by design? If you have hunted with these, please comment and share your results. Especially on Buffalo, but other results would apply as well.

View attachment 641572

 

[WyoBull]

PV - Thank you for sharing these experiences. Those are interesting results. I saw a similar result with a 300wm using Barnes LRX on an American Bison (not mine). The bullet hit at about 3000fps and shed all of its petals but did kill the animal. Not a fail but not ideal result either. With your 270g bullets do you have any idea what the muzzle vel was? I am wondering out loud if the Barnes may be prone to breaking up like this when impacting much faster than its usual velocity for caliber? Just a theory. Anybody out there who has used the TTSX, TSX or LRX is some of the very fast calibers like 300PRC, 300RUM, Weatherfbys, 243, etc where the MV us well over 3000fps? Did they break up?

I shoot the Barnes 145 gr LRX in my 7mm RUM. I cannot answer your question about if they break up because I have never recovered a bullet. They have all been pass throughs with the animals being DRT or at most a very, very short distance from where shot.

 

[Piet-Vis]

PV - Thank you for sharing these experiences. Those are interesting results. I saw a similar result with a 300wm using Barnes LRX on an American Bison (not mine). The bullet hit at about 3000fps and shed all of its petals but did kill the animal. Not a fail but not ideal result either. With your 270g bullets do you have any idea what the muzzle vel was? I am wondering out loud if the Barnes may be prone to breaking up like this when impacting much faster than its usual velocity for caliber? Just a theory. Anybody out there who has used the TTSX, TSX or LRX is some of the very fast calibers like 300PRC, 300RUM, Weatherfbys, 243, etc where the MV us well over 3000fps? Did they break up?

Not fast, the box is bit rubbed out, it looked like 2625 fps at the muzzle and 2350 at 100 m.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Not fast, the box is bit rubbed out, it looked like 2625 fps at the muzzle and 2350 at 100 m.

So much for my theory, lol Thank you for the additional info. I really want to like the Barnes but it is going to take some time and a few more successful hunts to make me a dyed in the wool believer. The PH's in Africa and the Guides here in North America are going to be the guys most able to judge these since they will see many times more results from various bullets and calibers than most us amateur hunters who will see only a few over the same time frame. I know I am splitting hairs and also know that bullet placement is far more important than which bullet or caliber.

I am reminded of a late evening conversation with myself and two PH's while sitting at the bar savoring a 3rd or 4th helping of good ole KY Mothers-Milk. We were discussing bullets and calibers for African game. We were also discussing hunting Free State where my PH said the shots could be longer than typical for Limpopo. He said to plan for shots to range 200-300y normally and possibly out to 400y at times if I was confident in my marksmanship. I told him that I would dearly love to bring my Sako S20 Hybrid for that hunt since it was one of my more accurate rifles. But, it is chambered in 243. Both PH's agreed that a hunter could be successful on PG with a 243 using well constructed bonded bullets, or partitions or A-Frames or Barnes type, but they did not recommend that caliber due to concerns that the bullets might break up and not penetrate enough for a clean kill. They also pointed out that the owner of the concession in Free State we would be visiting required all clients to use a 270 or larger cartridge. I considered getting another S20 in a larger caliber such as 30-06, 300wm, etc but the Sako is a very heavy rifle and lugging it around can be a chore. When all said and done, I ended up with a old Husqvarna in 30-06.

Still, during that same conversation, we talked about my witnessing my grandfather drop a 1400lb bull with a single shot to the brain with a 22 short prior to butchering the beef. My PH agreed that one could kill a Cape Buffalo the same way if you could get close enough but who wanted to play that game. We agreed that if the 22lr could do the job, that a 375HH or a 416 Rigby would be at least as effective, lol. I still want to take my 243 to Africa some day to do some work. I have some Barnes TTSX 80g ammo that it shoots well. Might be a good item for Baboon sniping or Jackal smoking, etc. More in the varmint category. Still it would have been great for use on Free State Springbok, Blesbok, Reedbok, and other of the mid to small size up to deer sized critters. When I made my first trip to Limpopo, the PH dissueded me from considering the 243. Having hunted with me and learned that my marksmanship skills are at least adequate, he was ok with it for future trips. But, since RSA limits us to only 2 rifles per hunter, I cannot take it next year if it is not allowed for Free State. Hell, if it was up to me, I would have also brought a precision 22lr to terrorize the squirrels and vervet monkeys around the compound. I have one that was built by GAP that will hit 1/2" dum dum suckers from a solid rest at 100y. Pic below is Sako Quad 22lr GAP-Tac. It will out shoot a lot of centerfire rifles.

 

[Piet-Vis]

So much for my theory, lol Thank you for the additional info. I really want to like the Barnes but it is going to take some time and a few more successful hunts to make me a dyed in the wool believer. The PH's in Africa and the Guides here in North America are going to be the guys most able to judge these since they will see many times more results from various bullets and calibers than most us amateur hunters who will see only a few over the same time frame. I know I am splitting hairs and also know that bullet placement is far more important than which bullet or caliber.

I am reminded of a late evening conversation with myself and two PH's while sitting at the bar savoring a 3rd or 4th helping of good ole KY Mothers-Milk. We were discussing bullets and calibers for African game. We were also discussing hunting Free State where my PH said the shots could be longer than typical for Limpopo. He said to plan for shots to range 200-300y normally and possibly out to 400y at times if I was confident in my marksmanship. I told him that I would dearly love to bring my Sako S20 Hybrid for that hunt since it was one of my more accurate rifles. But, it is chambered in 243. Both PH's agreed that a hunter could be successful on PG with a 243 using well constructed bonded bullets, or partitions or A-Frames or Barnes type, but they did not recommend that caliber due to concerns that the bullets might break up and not penetrate enough for a clean kill. They also pointed out that the owner of the concession in Free State we would be visiting required all clients to use a 270 or larger cartridge. I considered getting another S20 in a larger caliber such as 30-06, 300wm, etc but the Sako is a very heavy rifle and lugging it around can be a chore. When all said and done, I ended up with a old Husqvarna in 30-06.

Still, during that same conversation, we talked about my witnessing my grandfather drop a 1400lb bull with a single shot to the brain with a 22 short prior to butchering the beef. My PH agreed that one could kill a Cape Buffalo the same way if you could get close enough but who wanted to play that game. We agreed that if the 22lr could do the job, that a 375HH or a 416 Rigby would be at least as effective, lol. I still want to take my 243 to Africa some day to do some work. I have some Barnes TTSX 80g ammo that it shoots well. Might be a good item for Baboon sniping or Jackal smoking, etc. More in the varmint category. Still it would have been great for use on Free State Springbok, Blesbok, Reedbok, and other of the mid to small size up to deer sized critters. When I made my first trip to Limpopo, the PH dissueded me from considering the 243. Having hunted with me and learned that my marksmanship skills are at least adequate, he was ok with it for future trips. But, since RSA limits us to only 2 rifles per hunter, I cannot take it next year if it is not allowed for Free State. Hell, if it was up to me, I would have also brought a precision 22lr to terrorize the squirrels and vervet monkeys around the compound. I have one that was built by GAP that will hit 1/2" dum dum suckers from a solid rest at 100y. Pic below is Sako Quad 22lr GAP-Tac. It will out shoot a lot of centerfire rifles.

View attachment 642899

Yeah, the good old 22 LR. Many tales are told about kudu shot between the eyes and falling over like a sack of potatoes.
My experience is that I rarely have one shot head shot kills with my 22.
Last night I shot two veggie eating Bushbuck rams, one took 2x shots to the head to kill, the other 3x. Maybe I'm just a bad shot.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I used to exclusively prefer using Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft points as my expanding bullets of choice for dangerous game. Unfortunately, Federal has constantly been keeping them listed as “Out of Stock” ever since the outbreak of the Chinese virus. So (out of compulsion) I turned to the Barnes TSX bullet in 2020, as my dangerous game expanding bullet. So far, I am definitely liking what I am seeing.

I have (till now) successfully used 300Gr Barnes TSX factory loads (fired from a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum) on:
Two Hippopotamus bulls
One Cape buffalo bull
One Gaur bull

The hippopotamus bulls were an eye opener for me. Prior to 2020, I exclusively preferred solid bullets for tackling hippopotamus bulls on land. The problem was that (when using solids in a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum or indeed any caliber lighter than .458 bore) the hippopotamuses would often manage to make into into the water prior to expiring when shot in the body. Once I started using 300Gr Barnes TSX bullets for making body shots on hippopotamuses on land, I suddenly realized how quickly these gigantic animals were dropping to the shot. Performance was like night & day. As of this time of writing, I still keep a solid (Hendershots Custom loaded 300Gr Cutting Edge monolithic brass flat nose) in the magazine in reserve for the last shot (if needed). But in the future, perhaps I just might load the entire magazine exclusively with Barnes TSX hollow points.

All were one-shot kills, but the Gaur was recovered six hours later.

This was not the fault of the Barnes TSX bullet though. It expanded beautifully, but only solid bullets should be employed on Gaur (on account of their extremely tough hides & muscle/bone structure).

But I would only recommend the Barnes TSX being used in high velocity calibers such as the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum or .416 Rigby/Remington Magnum or the .458 Lott or .450 Rigby Magnum or the .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs. In slower calibers (like the .450/400 Nitro Express, .470 Nitro Express or .500 Nitro Express) expansion is not very reliable.

Below is a 570Gr Barnes TSX bullet (fired from a .500 Nitro Express Federal Premium Cape Shok factory load at 2150 FPS) that was recovered from an African Cape buffalo. Expansion was non-existent and the Cape buffalo required other shots in order to be taken down.

Photograph Source: Thaba Mahaka Safaris

Swift A Frames are excellent bullets, but virtually never available these days. I have hunted an American Kodiak bear with them, but have not yet been fortunate enough to hunt in Africa with them.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I used to exclusively prefer using Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft points as my expanding bullets of choice for dangerous game. Unfortunately, Federal has constantly been keeping them listed as “Out of Stock” ever since the outbreak of the Chinese virus. So (out of compulsion) I turned to the Barnes TSX bullet in 2020, as my dangerous game expanding bullet. So far, I am definitely liking what I am seeing.

I have (till now) successfully used 300Gr Barnes TSX factory loads (fired from a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum) on:
Two Hippopotamus bulls
One Cape buffalo bull
One Gaur bull
View attachment 642905
All were one-shot kills, but the gaur was recovered six hours later.

This was not the fault of the Barnes TSX bullet though. It expanded beautifully, but only solid bullets should be employed on Gaur.

But I would only recommend the Barnes TSX being used in high velocity calibers such as the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum or .416 Rigby/Remington Magnum or the .458 Lott or .450 Rigby Magnum or the .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs. In slower calibers (like the .450/400 Nitro Express, .470 Nitro Express or .500 Nitro Express) expansion is not very reliable.

Below is a 570Gr Barnes TSX bullet (fired from a .500 Nitro Express Federal Premium Cape Shok factory load at 2150 FPS) that was recovered from an African Cape buffalo. Expansion was non-existent and the Cape buffalo required other shots in order to be taken down.

Photograph Source: Thaba Mahaka Safaris


Swift A Frames are excellent bullets, but virtually never available these days. I have hunted an American Kodiak bear with them, but have not yet been fortunate enough to hunt in Africa with them.

Hunter-Habib,

Dankie Meneer, for your sharing of your experiences. This is helpful to us all. I was fortunate to have acquired three boxes of Federal 375HH 250g Trophy Bonded Bear Claw ammo from my local FFL the day we transferred my first 375 to my hot little hands. The dealer did not sold much of it and offered to me all of his inventory at 1/2 price. I bought it for practice fodder as I got used to the rifle. I also used it to harvest a Whitetail in WV just for fun. I still have about a box and a half of it.

It is accurate and works fine on game but shoots to a good bit higher POI compared to the 300g ammo I have. Therefore, I never used it in Africa. I am looking into an American Bison meat hunt for the freezer for next year as my wife and I dearly love Bison. This stuff might be good for that application. Dunno yet. Since I have both the 300g TSX and the 300g A-Frames already, I will stick to those for the Cape Buffalo hunt next year. They both shoot great and either will do the job. Likely will discuss both with PH and get his take on them.

 

[Royal7]

But I would only recommend the Barnes TSX being used in high velocity calibers such as the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum or .416 Rigby/Remington Magnum or the .458 Lott or .450 Rigby Magnum or the .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs. In slower calibers (like the .450/400 Nitro Express, .470 Nitro Express or .500 Nitro Express) expansion is not very reliable.

Below is a 570Gr Barnes TSX bullet (fired from a .500 Nitro Express Federal Premium Cape Shok factory load at 2150 FPS) that was recovered from an African Cape buffalo. Expansion was non-existent and the Cape buffalo required other shots in order to be taken down.

Photograph Source: Thaba Mahaka Safaris
View attachment 642909

Swift A Frames are excellent bullets, but virtually never available these days. I have hunted an American Kodiak bear with them, but have not yet been fortunate enough to hunt in Africa with them.

Have other folks had the same experience with the Barnes in the slower calibers? I just purchased at 470NE for buffalo hunt next summer and found a good price on 500gr Barnes TSX and bought a few boxes. I had heard good reports but if they arent expanding well, I make look into some of the other non available rounds haha