Barnes TSX reviews/question

[Jwg223]

@Jwg223
Or one that blows up on impact or doesn't make the target because it vaporised mid flight due to to high a velocity. Had both of these happen to me.
Bob

I mean...yes...but I figured that this crowd tended to choose more ice picks than grenades.

 

[ftrovato]

That's any bullet, though. You need to keep the velocity within the expected performance envelope if you don't want an ice pick.

Understood. However, I have heard several stories of Barnes failing to open on buffalo within velocity parameter that they should have with large caliber rifles and bullets.

 

[deewayne2003]

That's any bullet, though. You need to keep the velocity within the expected performance envelope if you don't want an ice pick.

It’s not just velocity, there is a theory that I believe to be true about spin rate also being a crucial part of the TSX expansion equation.

It was covered on another post in this forum, but basically someone was testing TSX in ballistic gel and fired 2 rounds of the same projectile and at equal velocity into gel by 2 different rifles.

One TSX expanded and the other did not, the only difference was the twist rate of the rifle barrels.

As the author said… “that’s when the lightbulb came on!”

 

[shootist~]

Bullet Spin Rate Calculator - Calculator Academy

Source This Page Share This Page Close Enter the muzzle velocity (fps) and the barrel twist rate into the Calculator. The calculator will evaluate the

calculator.academy

Minimum spin at impact V need to be above 140,000 rpm on Barnes IIRC.

 

[skydiver386]

It’s not just velocity, there is a theory that I believe to be true about spin rate also being a crucial part of the TSX expansion equation.

It was covered on another post in this forum, but basically someone was testing TSX in ballistic gel and fired 2 rounds of the same projectile and at equal velocity into gel by 2 different rifles.

One TSX expanded and the other did not, the only difference was the twist rate of the rifle barrels.

As the author said… “that’s when the lightbulb came on!”

That was my post, and I was quoting Steve the Owner of Hammer Bullets. Although not exactly the same as a Barnes, minimum rifling twist rates still apply.

Post in thread 'Understanding The Barnes TSX Controversy'

Oct 1, 2024

Curious about the rifling perspective (but I am always curious).

Is it twist rate, rifling profile and depth, number of grooves and lands?

It makes sense, that "harder" alloyed mono-metal bullets may require different rifling design, twists than traditional lead, or soft cupronickel cup and core bullets.

It is twist rate.

This is a quote from Steve at Hammer bullets.

"We learned this when we first started impact testing bullets in the beginning of marketing Hammers. We were low velocity testing to confirm proper performance at 1800 fps. Launched a bullet at 1800 fps and...

• skydiver386

• 
• 

I have discussed this issue at length with nearly every manufacturer of monometal bullets, and they have all noticed the same phenomenon. When SPIN RATE is below the minimum, the bullet will likely fail to expand, even when velocity is above the recommended minimum. Adding velocity when the spin rate is below minimum will not solve the problem.

From the Hammer bullets website.

https://hammerbullets.com/about-our-bullets/

Recommended Minimum Twist Rates​

Each of our bullets has a required minimum twist rate that is calculated at sea level using the Miller Twist Formula. We use sea level as the standard to ensure that there is enough rpm’s for proper terminal performance. While the Miller Formula calculates stability for ballistic flight, we are most concerned with hunting performance and ensuring that there is enough stability for proper terminal performance. The required minimum twist rate is based on a gyroscopic stability factor (SG) of 1.5. An SG of 1.5 or higher is needed to achieve full bc value and expected terminal ballistics. In our impact testing for terminal performance, we have found that marginal SG (less than 1.5sg calculated at sea level) hinders a bullets ability to stay on track and open reliably for proper terminal performance. SG factor of 1.5 or higher will keep a bullet oriented point first on impact and promote proper deformation of the frontal area for good terminal performance. We have never seen a downside to running with a faster twist than the minimum required twist. Infact extra stability is always a good thing. When referring to a rifles twist rate, note that a 1-8″ twist is faster than a 1-10″ twist.

If hunting at low elevation and cold temperatures it is recommended to run faster than minimum required twist rates. Hunting with less than listed minimum twist rate can result in poor terminal performance and should not be done.

​

 

[ftrovato]

Bullet Spin Rate Calculator - Calculator Academy

Source This Page Share This Page Close Enter the muzzle velocity (fps) and the barrel twist rate into the Calculator. The calculator will evaluate the

calculator.academy

Minimum spin at impact V need to be above 140,000 rpm on Barnes IIRC.

This spin thing is new to me outside of bullet stability. I know if a bullet is tumbling from lack of stability it cant perform as designed.

I wonder where this notion (new to me) fits into design and testing and why it's taken me till 2025 to hear about this.... tell me more....

 

[shootist~]

@ftrovato

It's pretty new to me as well.

My South Texas Nilgai outfitter's favorable views on Barnes bullets is what convinced me to load the 210 gr TTSX for my Sako 338 WM. Nilgai are extremely tough - my bull was around 550 pounds.

Muzzle velocity at just under 2,900 fps with a 10 twist puts

the spin at ~200,000+ RPM at 49 yards. Bullet recovered under hide on far side after going thru near side shoulder and a rib on far side. I'm now a Barnes fan.

January 2025:

 

[Jwg223]

Understood. However, I have heard several stories of Barnes failing to open on buffalo within velocity parameter that they should have with large caliber rifles and bullets.

Barnes bullets are weight and caliber specific. Some are designed better than others and had more R&D put into them than others. A "bad" combo will yield iffy results. The 70gr .224 cal Barnes bullet got an amazing amount of real world R&D and tweaks done to it. That is part of why I use it. I am not sure about other combos, but have heard similar to what you're telling me from some.

 

[Jwg223]

It’s not just velocity, there is a theory that I believe to be true about spin rate also being a crucial part of the TSX expansion equation.

It was covered on another post in this forum, but basically someone was testing TSX in ballistic gel and fired 2 rounds of the same projectile and at equal velocity into gel by 2 different rifles.

One TSX expanded and the other did not, the only difference was the twist rate of the rifle barrels.

As the author said… “that’s when the lightbulb came on!”

Correct. Monos like higher spin. Also note that rotational velocity decay is far lower than longitudinal.

 

[ftrovato]

@ftrovato

It's pretty new to me as well.

My South Texas Nilgai outfitter's favorable views on Barnes bullets is what convinced me to load the 210 gr TTSX for my Sako 338 WM. Nilgai are extremely tough - my bull was around 550 pounds.

Muzzle velocity at just under 2,900 fps with a 10 twist puts View attachment 672854View attachment 672855the spin at ~200,000+ RPM at 49 yards. Bullet recovered under hide on far side after going thru near side shoulder and a rib on far side. I'm now a Barnes fan.

January 2025:

They work! However, I am tired of scrubbing copper out of bores.
I Wish they would come up with a gliding material that didn't leave such a mess behind.
Barnes says my barrels are not clean enough. PLEASE they dont know how obsessive compulsive I can be.....thats why I shoot their bullets!

However it sounds like something is not right with their big bore bullets not working and Barnes has to own that since they produce them for big bore doubles under the expectation they will expand.

 

[deewayne2003]

They work! However, I am tired of scrubbing copper out of bores.
I Wish they would come up with a gliding material that didn't leave such a mess behind.
Barnes says my barrels are not clean enough. PLEASE they dont know how obsessive compulsive I can be.....thats why I shoot their bullets!

However it sounds like something is not right with their big bore bullets not working and Barnes has to own that since they produce them for big bore doubles under the expectation they will expand.

You bring up a good point, when running 100gr TSX in my .257wby I would have to clean the bore every 30ish rounds or the fouling would build up and accuracy drop off.

If I calculate correctly my .257wby had 240,000+rpm on the projectile and they always performed flawlessly; I once killed 3 pigs with 1 shot and recovered the bullet weighing 93gr.

In comparison I calculated it with my .470ne and it would only be 94,000rpm - much lower than the 140,000 quoted in the article..... Hence why I'll stay with Woodleigh Weldcores & Hydros.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I’m a huge fan of using these on everything except the great cats & elephant.

But they should only be used in high velocity calibers, because these all copper monolithics really need a fair amount of speed to expand properly. They work best in calibers like .375 Holland & Holland Magnum, .404 Jeffery (American or German loadings only; not British), .416 Remington Magnum, .416 Rigby, .500/416 Nitro Express, any of the high velocity .450 bores (.458 Lott, .450 Rigby Magnum, .460 Weatherby Magnum), .500 Jeffery, .505 Gibbs or .500 A-Square. In lower velocity calibers (like the ones most large bore double rifles are chambered in), you can sometimes experience expansion issues due to fluctuations in impact velocity.

Here is a 570Gr Barnes TSX fired from a .500 Nitro Express 3” Federal Premium factory load. After it was recovered from a Cape buffalo bull (that required more follow up shots in order to be successfully dispatched), a complete lack of bullet expansion was discovered.

 

[Trapper]

Many members swear by the Barnes TSX/TTSX and we have all seen recovered projectiles to prove the bullets performance.
I’ve acquired Barnes bullets for every caliber I reload (7mm08, 280, 300 WSM, 404, 416) for but i still have the concern that maybe the Barnes isn’t the best bullet for deer or hogs. Maybe this job should be left to something more soft?

Does anyone have a real world experience for soft skinned game such as deer or hogs

I know I'm late to the party (years in fact) but I've been using Barnes TSX/TTSX since at least 2010 and have had great results. I think people tend to go to heavy on bullet grain weight in many instances and I've found that you can actually go down in grain weight when using the TTX/TTSX bullets and get the same performance. My two "go to guns" are my .264 Win Mag and my .300 Win Mag (with the .264 being my baby.) I have taken African plains game with my .264 and 120 gr TTSX handloads up to the size of gemsbuck, zebra, and kudu, and everything downward from there, and all dropped with one shot w/o failure. I just recently returned from Spain where we took two record book Iberian red stags with the same gun/bullet combo. I actually found the expanded bullet just under the hide on my stag and after I cleaned it and weighed it, it was still 120 grains. We are heading back to Africa this fall and I'll be gunning for both black & blue wildebeest, zebra, blesbuck, and smaller game and the .264 is the only gun I'm bringing this time. As far as "soft skinned game, I don't think it can get much softer than impala and duiker and those TTSX performed excellent.

 

[MS 9x56]

They work! However, I am tired of scrubbing copper out of bores.
I Wish they would come up with a gliding material that didn't leave such a mess behind.
Barnes says my barrels are not clean enough. PLEASE they dont know how obsessive compulsive I can be.....thats why I shoot their bullets!

However it sounds like something is not right with their big bore bullets not working and Barnes has to own that since they produce them for big bore doubles under the expectation they will expand.

I stopped using them for the very same reason.

 

[skydiver386]

I know I'm late to the party (years in fact) but I've been using Barnes TSX/TTSX since at least 2010 and have had great results. I think people tend to go to heavy on bullet grain weight in many instances and I've found that you can actually go down in grain weight when using the TTX/TTSX bullets and get the same performance. My two "go to guns" are my .264 Win Mag and my .300 Win Mag (with the .264 being my baby.) I have taken African plains game with my .264 and 120 gr TTSX handloads up to the size of gemsbuck, zebra, and kudu, and everything downward from there, and all dropped with one shot w/o failure. I just recently returned from Spain where we took two record book Iberian red stags with the same gun/bullet combo. I actually found the expanded bullet just under the hide on my stag and after I cleaned it and weighed it, it was still 120 grains. We are heading back to Africa this fall and I'll be gunning for both black & blue wildebeest, zebra, blesbuck, and smaller game and the .264 is the only gun I'm bringing this time. As far as "soft skinned game, I don't think it can get much softer than impala and duiker and those TTSX performed excellent.

You are right on the money.

The old trick of going "Heavy for caliber" made good sense with lead core bullets to gain penetration, but this is exactly what causes problems with all copper bullets.

The Barnes X, and other all copper bullets tend to penetrate deeply because they don't shed weight like the softer lead core bullets do. Not only are the heavy for caliber bullets not needed to gain penetration, they are counterproductive.

Heavier bullets are longer, and it is LENGTH, not necessarily weight that requires a faster rifling twist rate. Using heavy bullets lowers velocity and degrades terminal ballistic effect.

 

[BryceM]

I use Barnes because:

- I've had excellent success with them.
- The factory isn't too far from home. Shop local.
- The people who work there will send me their data just for asking.
- Most (not all) of my rifles like them.
- I sometimes use live fluoro x-ray machines while trying to put people's bones back together when they've been shot. It it AMAZING how far and wide the little bits travel. You can NEVER find them all and I don't like eating that stuff. Here are a few images I stole from the Internet. The first one is a bit extreme but the others aren't so unusual.

I have shot something around 50 big game animals with TSX and TTSX. I've recovered 2 bullets. A 400 gr TSX from a Caprivi buffalo and a 180 gr .308 TTSX from a Kalahari eland. I've wounded and lost one animal (waterbuck) during that time. The bullets passed through (and killed) everything else including zebra, moose, elk, kudu, wildebeest, and even a rather stout steenbok.

They like to go fast, but Barnes doesn't built them all the same. They're designed to open at typical speeds for a given caliber. They know the .416 and .458 bullets aren't going to be impacting at 3000 fps, for example. They make a 165 gr and a 168 gr bullet in .308, for example. They report the 165 gr bullets requires 1800 fps to expand and the 168 gr requires 1500 fps to expand in their tests.

As with all bullets, arrows, swords and spears, knowing your equipment and matching it to the job at hand takes a bit of understanding and planning.

 

[ftrovato]

I use Barnes because:

- I've had excellent success with them.
- The factory isn't too far from home. Shop local.
- The people who work there will send me their data just for asking.
- Most (not all) of my rifles like them.
- I sometimes use live fluoro x-ray machines while trying to put people's bones back together when they've been shot. It it AMAZING how far and wide the little bits travel. You can NEVER find them all and I don't like eating that stuff. Here are a few images I stole from the Internet. The first one is a bit extreme but the others aren't so unusual.

View attachment 673001View attachment 673002View attachment 673003View attachment 673004

I have shot something around 50 big game animals with TSX and TTSX. I've recovered 2 bullets. A 400 gr TSX from a Caprivi buffalo and a 180 gr .308 TTSX from a Kalahari eland. I've wounded and lost one animal (waterbuck) during that time. The bullets passed through (and killed) everything else including zebra, moose, elk, kudu, wildebeest, and even a rather stout steenbok.

They like to go fast, but Barnes doesn't built them all the same. They're designed to open at typical speeds for a given caliber. They know the .416 and .458 bullets aren't going to be impacting at 3000 fps, for example. They make a 165 gr and a 168 gr bullet in .308, for example. They report the 165 gr bullets requires 1800 fps to expand and the 168 gr requires 1500 fps to expand in their tests.

As with all bullets, arrows, swords and spears, knowing your equipment and matching it to the job at hand takes a bit of understanding and planning.

Hard to argue with your experiences and success....

 

[WyoBull]

I know I'm late to the party (years in fact) but I've been using Barnes TSX/TTSX since at least 2010 and have had great results. I think people tend to go to heavy on bullet grain weight in many instances and I've found that you can actually go down in grain weight when using the TTX/TTSX bullets and get the same performance. My two "go to guns" are my .264 Win Mag and my .300 Win Mag (with the .264 being my baby.) I have taken African plains game with my .264 and 120 gr TTSX handloads up to the size of gemsbuck, zebra, and kudu, and everything downward from there, and all dropped with one shot w/o failure. I just recently returned from Spain where we took two record book Iberian red stags with the same gun/bullet combo. I actually found the expanded bullet just under the hide on my stag and after I cleaned it and weighed it, it was still 120 grains. We are heading back to Africa this fall and I'll be gunning for both black & blue wildebeest, zebra, blesbuck, and smaller game and the .264 is the only gun I'm bringing this time. As far as "soft skinned game, I don't think it can get much softer than impala and duiker and those TTSX performed excellent.

Completely agree with you, in fact, Barnes has said for years their bullets perform like a lead core bullet that is 30% larger. So, using simple math, a 100 gr TTSX/TSX will perform like a 130 gr lead core bullet.

I believe them and have always shot lighter for caliber Barnes bullets in multiple different calibers with great results.