Barnes Banded Solid

[TOBY458]

'Have shot the RN banded solids @ 2,450 fps to very good effect!!! No issues. .458 WM and many old time slower double NEs prob beg of the FN. The much better suited Lott will push that RN to the Middle East where it belongs!

Get him @michael458 !

 

[fourfive8]

Well, any bullet will work until it doesn't. Bell shot a trainload of elephants with a FMJ roundnose 173 gr 7mm bullet with a long ogive. Out of historical curiosity, I tested that bullet (173 gr DWM FMJ RN) at factory load levels and corrected for about 50 yard impact vel and found it penetrated OK but nothing to write home about and did loose stability within the media veering off axis about 2/3 of the way to final terminus. The evidence is pretty clear. By testing two solid bullets as equal as possible- one with a roundnose and one with a flat point, the flat point will penetrate in a straighter line and thus farther than the roundnose. A short ogive roundnose solid penetrates slightly straighter thus deeper than a long ogive solid roundness, the difference is not great. The flat point is significantly better than all other bullets tested for straight-line penetration and depth. I tested them in media similar to what @michael458 uses. The worst, most squirelly was a FMJ spire point with long ogive. The next bullet tested that penetrated straighter than the FMJ spire point but lost stabilization in the test media and started veering off course between 2/3 and 3/4 of the way to its terminus of penetration was the roundnose. The bullet that traveled in a straight line constantly to its terminus thus out penetrating all others was the flat point monolithic solid that included examples I tested of the North Fork FP and the GS Custom FP. Matter of fact I had trouble stopping both those designs in my 50" test media trough and had to add an additional 2 ft. of media to stop them. I used up a pick up bed full of bundled and water soaked phone books in the process along with a bunch of 1" wood planks placed about 4" after the entry point for bone simulation.

But use what you like, just passing along what I know and have tested and experienced.

For historical perspective, first 2 pics are of original Bell era 7mm Mauser DWM factory round with 173 FMJ

I'll add a pic since credibility on the these forums appears to be based on anecdotal evidence, no matter how sketchy or limited..... Bullet on right is unfired. Bullet on left is a 450 gr .458 GS Custom FP copper monolithic dug out of a bull elephant's skull after what coincidentally amounted to a "Bell shot" from the rear. Penetration was at least 5-6ft.

 

[michael458]

Get him @michael458 !

Well, any bullet will work until it doesn't.

@fourfive8 hit the nail on the head with that statement.

In aqueous medium, animal tissue, a Round Nose Solid/FMJ will go off course at some point. Many times, that point that it goes off course may be after it has accomplished the mission set forth, and no one cares, or even knows that fact. Its only when they go off course "Before" the mission is accomplished that we start looking into WHY.

Once a Solid begins terminal penetration, it becomes a "Front End Drive", the front does the steering from the point of contact with any aqueous medium, or tissue. A Round Nose projectile has no steering once terminals begin, there is no guidance at all in the front. A Flat Nose solid begins to create a bubble that it rides in, and if the meplat is the proper size it will ride that bubble true and straight for the entire depth of penetration. The meplat size has to be 65% of caliber to accomplish this. Any less than 65% will also become unstable at some point, less than 65% meplat you can increase stability using other Factors of Solid penetration such as Twist Rate and Velocity. But still, at some point it will loose stability as well.

There is no getting around this fact, it is proven over and over again.

Here in our test medium which is made up of wet newsprint with a mix of magazine materials. I started injecting the mix with magazine/catalog material quite by accident 20 years ago, my wife received daily so much of this in the mail I thought I would make some use of it. Well come to find out, it was a good thing, I learned by putting layers every 10 inches of magazine/catalog in the mix, 1.5 inches of this material, it actually made the mix about 35% more dense, and really tested a bullet to its max potential, so it became a standard for the last 20 years. This material is completely soaked over several days to make sure it is aqueous all the way through. In addition to that, we have shot enough animals to have correlation between the test medium and what we can expect in animal tissue, including the solids. Let me be 100% clear, Bullet Behavior (how a bullet reacts) in the test medium is exactly what you will get in animal tissue, taking into the facts of impact velocity, bone and other similar factors. What you get in the test medium, is what you get in animal tissue, period end of story. What the difference is, the test medium is far more dense than animal tissue, and you will get more penetration in animal tissue than you do the test medium I use. With solids that Rule of thumb is 35% more penetration in animal tissue. With expanding bullets the Rule of Thumb is 70% more penetration, with Non Conventional Trauma Inflicting bullets that increases to 100% or more.

After you absorb the 8 Factors of Solid Penetration, we will go into more detail on some of the most important points, with examples, but first you have to have this to understand.



There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber
Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles..........

#2 Nose Profile
There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more... Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all.... John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD........

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.



#4 Nose Projection
Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.


#5 Radius Edge of Meplat
We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius.... No more to go into here, thats it.......

All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design........



#6 Velocity
Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6.........



#7 Barrel Twist Rate
Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT....... If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower...... I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST....... I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times...... If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ.......


#8 Sectional Density
Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............



These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over...... These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets.................

 

[michael458]

The evidence is pretty clear. By testing two solid bullets as equal as possible- one with a roundnose and one with a flat point, the flat point will penetrate in a straighter line and thus farther than the roundnose. A short ogive roundnose solid penetrates slightly straighter thus deeper than a long ogive solid roundness, the difference is not great. The flat point is significantly better than all other bullets tested for straight-line penetration and depth. I tested them in media similar to what @michael458 uses.

Indeed a true statement. I test and have a private 50 yard indoor range. The Round Nose Solids finally just caused too much damage to the range by coming out of the box, hitting light fixtures above the box, walls on all sides, ceilings, and everything else you can imagine when they veer off course and exit the box through the sides, top, bottom, since they have no steering mechanism there is no way to predict which way they might go, but go they will, 100% of the time, every single time. I quit testing Round Nose Solids, they just did too much damage to the range.

This happens in animal tissue as well. I have not only seen it, but had it happen to me several times. I watched as Round nose solids exited animals at 90 degree angles from point of impact, I would say that is "off course"............

I commend @fourfive8 highly for his own test work, very very well done. Instead of just accepting the status quo, he is finding out the proper way for himself, and thanks so much for sharing, it only confirms the work we did here for so many years, and 1000s of solids fired and tested.

My Best friend and Test partner loves double rifles, and loves his 577 NE guns....... nearly 15 years ago he first came down to test with me, and got the shock of his life. He learned his mighty 577 NE was not quite as Mighty as he thought..................In fact, it was rather dismal to say the least, and yes, I said the words......."I told You So"................... HEH HEH.....................

My friend is extremely talented, has his own lathe and has the ability to make bullets. So begins our major Endeavor for the Perfect Solid. With him making all sorts of designs, and some of those were pretty wild, and we tested literally 100s of designs, 1000s of rounds fired and tested, literally tons of wet print chewed to pieces, and we tested weekly 2-3 times a week for months on end.

A very very long story, made short as possible, in the end we ended up with what we called the BBW#13 Solid.......... It was called BBW because at one point I accused my man of making bullets with a Bastard File, and I would call these bullets made from "Bastard Bullet Works"........... The #13 came from the degree angle off the nose, it is the current Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solid now. But it came and was designed here. I won't go into detail of how it came about, but we tested meplat size from Round Nose up to 80% meplat, we tested angle off the nose from 10 degree to 20 degrees before getting everything right, and even after that there was more to come, as you see in the 8 Factors of Solid Terminal penetration........... The CEB #13 was the very best design, it drove the straightest, and deepest of anything ever tested here. It was followed in just a matter of months by the North Fork Solid, if you compare the two, you will see the amazing resemblance. The North Fork is around 12 degree angle I think, and it might edge out the #13 by a small margin in depth of penetration........ These two bullets are the finest deep diving solids ever designed. So far, nothing I have seen can come close.

After the #13s were designed, my Friend made some two band bullets, for double rifles, to reduce the amount of barrel strain on doubles, this is an entirely other area of study, with barrel strain and pressures, we won't go there yet. But this 2 band #13 Solid made from copper enhanced his 577 NE incredibly............ Compare this to the 14 inches of the RN Woodliegh.

One made of brass, with three bands and smaller meplat size of 65%..............

Test work like this has to be done from the bench, it has to be precise and no margin for error......or you waste your time, and bullets.........577 NE in full recoil.

We also tested Barnes FN Solids at the time as well, and they did good, straight at least........Meplat size is a bit small for caliber, but it still performed good.

I believe it was 2010 that my Friend took his 577 NE to Africa with the very first BBW#13 Solids the continent had ever seen. I told him at the time, that when he set foot in Africa, he had the most powerful and reliable 577 NE that the continent had ever seen in its history, because of that bullet.

A few years later he dropped the weight of the solid to 650 gr and the Raptor to 600 gr in which he took several elephants, buffalo and hippo with these.............

 

[michael458]

Want more proof of Round Nose Solids being inferior? You don't believe it yet? OK, lets look at .510 caliber. My pal loves 500 NE as well, and I have a few .510 caliber rifles as well...... so we went to work with this at the same time we were doing other calibers..... such as 470 NE, various 458s, 416s, and lots and lots of .500 caliber rifles, which I had to have solids for my own .500 caliber guns.......

Well that did not turn out too good did it.............

But the big flat nose bullets won't feed in my POS Rifle? Oh boo hoo, these bad bullets won't feed in my $2 dollar POS. Well, I have one of those POS rifles, big Ruger Magnum that converted to 510 Wells, it weights so damn much I would never ever consider taking it to the field, so it was never worth worrying over getting a proper gunsmith to work on it so it would feed, but we did modify bullets that would feed.......

So here is what you get, when you are too damn sorry to have the gun worked on, so you decide it is easier just to modify the bullet so it will feed in your POS gun...........

If I recall correctly Hornady made bullets so they would feed in Rugers and CZs..... almost, but not quite there, meplat size a little less than optimum...............

And lord knows we tried everything, including taking a Woodleigh FMJ and making it a hollow base, thinking just maybe we could stabilize it........... Wrong............Remember what I said about being a "Front End Drive?"

Now, how about you take a look at a properly designed solid to see what it does........ This is one of the very first #13 Copper Solids with two bands fired in 500 NE...................

And the end version of the Cutting Edge #13 Solid in Brass, with the current 4 band configuration

And an example of a good FN Solid, but with a different Nose Profile Factor #2

That about or should wrap up .510 caliber for you.......... are you beginning to get the picture, or is it still a little fuzzy for you?

 

[michael458]

In those early days, 2006-2007 I had what is called a 50 B&M. It is a 2.250 inch RUM case at true .500 caliber, rifle is a WSM action and barrel is 18 inches. Its rather sporty. But there was a major problem in 2006-2007, there were no .500 caliber solids? I could not be successful in my endeavors without a proper solid? This could not be a DG Cartridge, and no solids available. First I just had some CNC Copper RN made, similar to a Woodleigh..... Hell that was good enough, was it not? Yeah, until I stared seeing them blow off 90 degree angles exiting animals before they reached vitals.... I went to work. I was working with JD Jones with the B&Ms and JD had connections to a CNC bullet maker. JD suggested we try a faster twist and yes, it helped but performance was still not up to what I desired......... Penetration increased with the faster twist barrel by about 20% or so, but still not enough..........

We tried some other options, and some were pretty decent, but still I thought we could do better...

Pay close attention to this particular bullet, as it would be the beginning of greater things, notice the nose profile.........

Still I was not 100% satisfied. I had been having good results with the Barnes FN SOlids in 2005 in 458 and 458 Lott. They were stable, had a 65% meplat of caliber and had done a great job for me on several buffalo, so I directed to JD to make us a .500 caliber, similar nose profile to a Barnes FN Solid....... this was what we came up with.......

I ended up shooting a few rogue elephants that in 2007, and I used this bullet with incredible success. I only recovered one of these from elephant...... this elephant was a night, in the bottom of a dry river, I had about 6 feet advantage of elevation, so I was shooting somewhat downward on the animal. First shot at 35 steps had to be full heart broadside, no time for brain shot, elephant turned and started running away, I shot downward from the rear for the second and third shot and the elephant went down. Later we discovered the 1 st shot broadside exited centering the heart, the second shot from the rear also exited the front of the chest, crossing thru the hear a second time from the rear, the third shot is the bullet we recoverd that was about a foot or so further to the rear than shot #2. Total penetration on elephat was 84 inches.

Later we discovered the BBW #13 Solids which I felt overall were much better designs. And in the 50 B&M I dropped the weight to 450 grs with the superior design I did not need 500 gr or better to accomplish the mission, and with added velocity we gained some hitting power up front..........

I love Solids........ So I had several designs made to work in all my .500 caliber guns. Starting at 375 gr for the Super Shorts, from CEB and North Fork, then two for lever guns 375 and 405, the 450, 475, 500, 525 and 550 gr for the larger bolt gun cartridges............. In .500 caliber I had the Solids Covered..........

Now, do you recall Factor #2........ Nose Profile..... All Nose Profiles are not created equal.........

Example, North Fork.

I think we have now covered the Basics of Solid Terminal Performance in .500 caliber.................

 

[michael458]

Convinced yet? Well, truth is, I am not here to convince you, only to show you the light and maybe, just maybe you might be smart enough to use the knowledge to become more successful in your endeavors to the field. You know there are those that have been so set in their ways, so determined to fight change, so in love with one bullet or another or one bullet company or another that they would never accept that a Round Nose was not superior in every way, I have heard it all...... It was good enough for "so and so", they shot 1000s of elephants with the RN and never had a problem. and and and......... And BTW, how do you know they never had a problem?? I have heard of many many problems from the field..........

OK, well lets look at .474 caliber and see how that stacks up.................

I know we tested some RN FMJ, but not finding a detailed photo, only these are in my photo file???

But we did test some others that are less than suitably designed.......

Now, I have to point something out here, on the tests with the 470 Capsticks, I had two of these Big Five special custom guns from Winchester, both had over size barrels, they were .477 and not .474 and in some cases with undersized bullets, there was no engraving found on the bullets at all... this of course has some effect on stability right....... yes........ However, of special note as well, you see the Barnes Banded FN SOlid above, with its 65% meplat of caliber, was able to self stabilize itself to a point before loosing stability making it to 57 and 60 inches dead straight before going off....... No engraving on them at all.......... What does that tell you about how important the Meplat size is?

And finally a properly designed bullet............

Now I did a couple of .474 caliber B&Ms too...... One standard 2.24 inch RUM case, and the other a Super Short, 1.65 inch WSM case, 16 inch barrel on a WSSM action.............The Solids below as a special note, my Son used his 475 B&M Super Short in 2014 in Zimbabwe to successfully take Buffalo, hippo and elephant with it. Not a stunt, but with extreme prejudice. Buffalo hit with Raptor through the heart first, followed immediately by a solid, and the buff went 5 steps total. Hippo DRT brain shot with solid. Elephant side brain shot at 10 steps with a 350 gr .474 caliber CEB #13 Solid, DRT on the spot, and exited far side............. ....... What was that about SD and just how important it is?? I think it is the Last Factor in Solid Terminal Performance, with the other 7 being of more importance? No, you can't use a 350 gr .474 caliber bullet on elephant, that is just stupid, Except for..................

Is anyone seeing any sort of trend here.........>>???

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Convinced yet? Well, truth is, I am not here to convince you, only to show you the light and maybe, just maybe you might be smart enough to use the knowledge to become more successful in your endeavors to the field. You know there are those that have been so set in their ways, so determined to fight change, so in love with one bullet or another or one bullet company or another that they would never accept that a Round Nose was not superior in every way, I have heard it all...... It was good enough for "so and so", they shot 1000s of elephants with the RN and never had a problem. and and and......... And BTW, how do you know they never had a problem?? I have heard of many many problems from the field..........

OK, well lets look at .474 caliber and see how that stacks up.................

I know we tested some RN FMJ, but not finding a detailed photo, only these are in my photo file???

View attachment 560685

But we did test some others that are less than suitably designed.......

View attachment 560683

View attachment 560684

View attachment 560686

View attachment 560687

Now, I have to point something out here, on the tests with the 470 Capsticks, I had two of these Big Five special custom guns from Winchester, both had over size barrels, they were .477 and not .474 and in some cases with undersized bullets, there was no engraving found on the bullets at all... this of course has some effect on stability right....... yes........ However, of special note as well, you see the Barnes Banded FN SOlid above, with its 65% meplat of caliber, was able to self stabilize itself to a point before loosing stability making it to 57 and 60 inches dead straight before going off....... No engraving on them at all.......... What does that tell you about how important the Meplat size is?

And finally a properly designed bullet............

View attachment 560682

Now I did a couple of .474 caliber B&Ms too...... One standard 2.24 inch RUM case, and the other a Super Short, 1.65 inch WSM case, 16 inch barrel on a WSSM action.............The Solids below as a special note, my Son used his 475 B&M Super Short in 2014 in Zimbabwe to successfully take Buffalo, hippo and elephant with it. Not a stunt, but with extreme prejudice. Buffalo hit with Raptor through the heart first, followed immediately by a solid, and the buff went 5 steps total. Hippo DRT brain shot with solid. Elephant side brain shot at 10 steps with a 350 gr .474 caliber CEB #13 Solid, DRT on the spot, and exited far side............. ....... What was that about SD and just how important it is?? I think it is the Last Factor in Solid Terminal Performance, with the other 7 being of more importance? No, you can't use a 350 gr .474 caliber bullet on elephant, that is just stupid, Except for..................

View attachment 560688

View attachment 560689

Is anyone seeing any sort of trend here.........>>???

@michael458 , you’re the right man to ask 2 question:

1) Assuming that all other factors are equal, will a strongly constructed FLAT NOSED steel jacketed FMJ solid outpenetrate a ROUND NOSED monolithic solid ?
2) Assuming that all other factors are equal, will a brass monolithic solid outpenetrate a copper monolithic solid ?

 

[michael458]

Oh my, we are now to one of my most favorite calibers ever........ .458 Caliber........ You know my name is michael458 for a reason....... I love .458 caliber, it is the beginning of Magic, it may just be the greatest caliber ever to go to the field, it can do everything and do it damn well, very few can do better or even lucky to equal....................

Now, this thread started with .458 caliber Barnes SOLIDS........... In the beginning of days, they were Round Nose in 450 and 500 grains. I used them in the early years, on buffalo and elephant as well. I was lucky with them, but I also had not began this extensive research into Solid Terminal Performance. I had always chosen the Barnes over the Woodleigh RN or not.

Later when Barnes started making the Flat Nose solid, I fell in line, and started to see huge differences in the way they hit up front. I shot a lot of buffalo with those Flat Nose Barnes and could easy compare what I had seen and done with the Round Nose versions. The Flat Nose hit buffalo from 458 Winchesters and 458 Lotts like a freight train, very noticeable reactions. RN just drilled little holes that closed up afterwards, Flat Nose knocked the crap out of them and left big wadcutter holes in buffalo, and almost always exited, dead straight, leaving two big wadcutter holes to leak....... Big big differenece...........

In my own 458 B&Ms in the beginning the 450 Barnes was the mainstay, it would penetrate 57-58 inches of my test medium, time after time after time, and I tested it a lot, just to compare to other bullets....... it was great, it was consistent and it was always the same..............

So if a fellow could get his hands on these Barnes FN Solids, you would be in good shape and you would be successful in your endeavors, I was successful, every single time...... they never let me down.

I even created what I call the T-Rex test, which was a very horrible test, and most bullets were not successful, but I deemed the Barnes a big success........ This test would test Nose Profile, and more importantly the Construction and Material of the bullet.

T-Rex Test on a bullet that I do not think did very well.........

And, from the field I stole this photo of a very similar bullet that failed I believe on elephant, "Construction and Material"..... Factor #3 of Solid Terminal Performance

And this one.......... that failed on elephant and was given to me with the details..... two Factors involved, small meplat causing stability issues, and then Construction and Material causing it to flatten out.......

Oh, wait, you still think that Sectional Density is the one most important Factor in Solid Terminal Performance. Sectional Density? Really.......... Wow.......... OK lets just see about that..............
Of course a 550 gr .458 caliber bullet has a SD of .374 so it has to be the king daddy of penetration right? SD says so, and that is the LAW...............

Wait a minute, something just is not right here.......... I tested some of those really good little 330 gr Barnes FN Solids, remember those, and they did much better, 550 gr at 28 inches straight, and these little 330 Barnes did 52 and 54 inches dead straight, that can't be, they only have an SD of .225................

And now, these CEB #13 Solids at 325 gr with SD of only .221 went 51-52 inches dead straight, compared to the 550 at 28 inches straight.......??? How does that work?

OK want me to tell you how that works?????

Here it is...... The other 7 Factors of Solid Terminal Penetration mean more to straight line penetration and depth of penetration than Sectional Density does. SD will only come to effect when all the other 7 factor are the same.......... When all 7 of the previous factors are equal, the SD makes a difference, other than that, its a useless number.................

There are many examples of other .458 caliber solids I could post, but it begins to look all the same as what you have already seen.............

So I am going to show you the two best 458 caliber Solids to ever go to Africa and they are what I used before I retired in Africa, for numerous buffalo, hippo and elephant.............. and those I advise and friends I help out are using the same bullets for their endeavors, and I have yet to have anyone not be successful, some as recent as the last few weeks...................

Last fall I had a new .458 solid designed for use with serious 400 gr bullets being used. It was a 400 gr CEB #13 and it has also been successful................

If you do not get it by now, then I am sorry, I have to write you off as a waste of time, and I cannot possibly help you in any way......... Thank you very much for listening, if indeed you have made it this far, I apologize for my passion concerning Solids and if it somehow becomes boring to you, just change the channel or turn the set off...............

 

[michael458]

@michael458 , you’re the right man to ask 2 question:

1) Assuming that all other factors are equal, will a strongly constructed FLAT NOSED steel jacketed FMJ solid outpenetrate a ROUND NOSED monolithic solid ?
2) Assuming that all other factors are equal, will a brass monolithic solid outpenetrate a copper monolithic solid ?

Well, I don't know for sure if I am the right man, but I will give you an answer, if I have one.........

Question 1

1) Assuming that all other factors are equal, will a strongly constructed FLAT NOSED steel jacketed FMJ solid outpenetrate a ROUND NOSED monolithic solid ?

Yes, indeed it will, Meplat Size would need to be at least 65% Meplat of Caliber, so it does not loose stability and go sideways..... Construction of the FMJ steel encased or not, is not as strong as the Brass mono. So we need to add to your question this factor "Properly Designed" Strongly constructed.......... The short answer is YES.

Question #2

2) Assuming that all other factors are equal, will a brass monolithic solid outpenetrate a copper monolithic solid ?

No, depth and straight line penetration will be the same in both, all being equal. Brass is tougher than copper, copper is softer and will flow more than brass. For instance hitting bone, the brass solid will do better than the copper depending on the exact circumstances. But make no mistake, both brass and copper will flow with heavy bone contact, I have examples of both taken from buffalo and hippo......... If you are at very high velocity the copper will flow before the brass, copper starts to deform at or around 2600 fps or so, and brass at 2800 fps or so.......... but not many big bore rifles we can tote around will achieve that......

 

[michael458]

Get him @michael458 !

You see what you started.............Damn

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Well @michael458 clearly you haven’t spent enough time on the subject…thanks for posting and completely agree with your summation of round nose vs flat nose performance. Thanks for taking the time to post!

HH

 

[michael458]

Well @michael458 clearly you haven’t spent enough time on the subject…thanks for posting and completely agree with your summation of round nose vs flat nose performance. Thanks for taking the time to post!

You are welcome and glad you got something from it, that is the point.......

But, lets not forget either the effort that @fourfive8 has added as well...... from what I can gather with his test work, he has the same conclusions as what we found here, its always great to have other valid test work in progress. Later, time permitting, I would like to also add to what @fourfive8 posted as well.

 

[michael458]

Bell shot a trainload of elephants with a FMJ roundnose 173 gr 7mm bullet with a long ogive. Out of historical curiosity, I tested that bullet (173 gr DWM FMJ RN) at factory load levels and corrected for about 50 yard impact vel and found it penetrated OK but nothing to write home about and did loose stability within the media veering off axis about 2/3 of the way to final terminus.

I had a friend early on that was a fan of some various 6.5 cartridges, and this bullet in particular. I would think it is somewhat similar to the FMJ in 7mm that you are referencing. It is a long for caliber type Round nose sorta thing..... as you will see. It did very well actually, penetrated deep before loosing stability. Count 68 inches straight.

In another 6.5 cartridge that increased the velocity of the same bullet it went a little deeper, but at the higher velocity the nose started to flatten some, which I think may have been the Factor with some deeper penetration, and of course velocity.

He went up in velocity, and that is when it went to crap adn broke up...........

Later he asked Dan at CEB for some special 6.5 Solids, I never did test them, but I have a box on hand.... I don't do a lot of 6.5 caliber shooting......... This bullet was used by a friend of MY Friend to take buffalo on a hunt with Boddington at some point.......

Another odd exception to the rule is the 320 gr Woodleigh FMJ in 9.3 caliber, or .366 caliber. It is again very long for caliber, and penetrated deep before loosing stability, it did better at the lower velocity because it did not deform as much as the high velocity, the nose starts to flatten out or deform.

Now, if you drop weight to the 286 Woodleigh FMJ it is not too good, it looses stability pretty quick.

Not sure if you guys remember this, but years ago Barnes made a 9.3 caliber solid, they reduced the meplat size substantially below optimum, I think if I recall correct this meplat was 47% of caliber, and it tested horribly the only bullet that ever tested equal to it was the 750 .585 Woodleigh in 577 NE........ This is what you get when you try to change a good bullet to put in a POS Rifle, just so it will feed, exactly like I did with my 510 Wells above....... You get crap results... Fix the damn gun, or throw it away and get one that will work proper. Or keep it as a test rifle only, like mine.

A properly designed bullet will give you consistent results.........

Someone wanted me to test these, I don't remember who.......

The worst, most squirelly was a FMJ spire point with long ogive.

A solid or FMJ pointy bullet has even less to drive it up front....... They are good if you WANT it to tumble around, because that is exactly what they are going to do........

When I was in the bush with 338 caliber, which was not but a few times, I always had some Barnes 250 FN Solids loaded........ and recently I had a bunch of these left over from days gone by, and loaded them for shelf ammo in my 338 RUM..............

If for some reason I went to the field with a 338 caliber today, I would probably opt for these, either Raptor or Solid, you choose......

Even the 200 gr does very well...........

And those can be loaded as a Raptor too.......

@baxterb asked me some years ago to test these in .308 caliber...................

John from North Fork at the time wanted these tested in .308 as well.............. the meplat size was a little bit small, but worked rather well regardless, just going off course slightly over the 5+ feet of penetration

Each box holds around 64-65 inches of test medium......

With some of the really good solids, I had to have two boxes put end to end...........

The two box system worked very good when you had to test Round Nose bullets........ you could move the box some to try and catch them, but most of the time they would go the opposite direction, regardless of how you turn the box.......HEH HEH....................

 

[TOBY458]

Glad I could roust you up out of your cage this morning @michael458 !

 

[Hunter4752001]

I find the arguments put forward in favour of the BBW #13 design to be quite compelling and am very grateful to Michael and all those involved in developing the concept.

As a handguner I can't help noticing the similarity to the concepts underlining the LBT design and the Belt Mountain Punch bullet. In both cases it was found that the best straight line penetration and terminal effect came from a meplat around 70 percent. The LBT was designed for hardcast lead projectiles at around 1200 fps. The Punch bullet was an interesting composite, a turned brass bullet with a lead insert in the base. Because handgun hunting involves much lower muzzle energies than rifle hunting, bullets need to be designed primarily for penetration. Both bullets were designed for handgun hunting where velocities were limited and case capacity minimal. Both gave significant penetration.

I doubt their design work had the same level of testing and development as the BBW #13, but its interesting that the same principles carry over in two different velocity domains.

 

[fourfive8]

@michael458, thanks for posting those results. That data represents an incredible amount of time and effort!

Glad you showed the spire point results. Of all the bullets I tested, those FMJ spire points (and monolithic spire points I assume but I didn't test any of them) were absolutely the most unpredictable. They would invariably become unstable shortly after entering the media and would veer off at unpredictable spiral-shaped tracks, usually exiting the media test trough at variable angles and distances from the entry point. I think they still had some rotation as they penetrated but were yawing with an ever increasing perturbation around their center of mass. I don't think the tracks ever showed true end over end tumbling but certainly many, that by chance ended up in the media, came to rest nearly perpendicular (sideways) to their axis of travel.

 

[Hunter4752001]

Military FMJ projectiles are specifically designed to be stable in flight and unstable in flesh. A ways of getting maximum terminal performance and still comply with the Hague Convention. Take a look at the design of everything from the old 303 (air space or light filler at tip under the jacket) through to the modern 5.56 SS109 (with the "penetrator" under the jacket at the tip.

 

[michael458]

Glad I could roust you up out of your cage this morning @michael458 !

Always stirring trouble......... HEH............

@michael458, thanks for posting those results. That data represents an incredible amount of time and effort!

You are welcome, but no thanks needed......... I also very much appreciate your test work as well, it is very good to have independent test work, and its just amazing when the two come up with the same conclusions.

Concerning the spire point solids or FMJ, correct, Front End Drives with no steering mechanism at all. The millisecond terminals begin, they are unstable, and no way to predict direction.

Military FMJ projectiles are specifically designed to be stable in flight and unstable in flesh. A ways of getting maximum terminal performance

This is also correct, although they did not have to do much design to get that to happen..... it came naturally...... Lots of sub sonic shooters also use this tumbling but to lesser effect than higher velocity.

As a handguner I can't help noticing the similarity to the concepts underlining the LBT design and the Belt Mountain Punch bullet.

@Hunter4752001 Handgun Hunters were decades ahead of Rifle Shooters in this regard. Handgun hunters because of the lower velocities could not always rely on expansion to inflict enough trauma, and reduced velocity also limited penetration. Handgun hunters learned that large flat meplats caused trauma up front, even at lower velocities, and increased penetration as well. Handgun hunters of serious game, where penetration was needed and hit hard up front, always used big cast flat nose bullets to begin with, then the last 15 or so years learned the value of big mono bullets that would not deform at handgun velocities.

Rifle shooters always could rely on expansion to do the dirty work, never considered a big Flat nose meplat because that would liimit BC......... it took years for some, and some never accepted the concept of FN for Solids and penetration, I suspect many handgun hunters thought poorly of some ignorant rifle shooters, with good reason. LOL........... All of Rifle Shooters, and those that have a need of solids should thank the handgun hunters for leading us in the right direction.

So all Handgun Hunters, Thank you for your insight.

the Belt Mountain Punch bullet.

We tested the Punch bullet in .458 caliber, at 45/70 velocities, against a Lever #13 Solid. Even with at large 75% meplat it was not quite stable going off course. There are two things for sure that will cause this, the first and most important is Factor #5 Radius Edge of Meplat. The Punch we tested had very sharp edges, sharp edges cause the bubble the bullet is riding in to rip, lower velocity such as in 45/70 velocity compared to 458 Win or better, causes the bubble to be even more unstable with the sharp edge meplat. The nose profile might have had some effect, but I doubt it, as the nose profile of the Punch is not bad at all, and I have tested many bullets with a similar Nose profile and all were very good in fact, the problem with the Punch in this case is the sharp meplat.

Our early tests with the BBW#13 had sharp meplats. We found that in every case at the end of penetration these sharp edge meplat would go unstable as velocity lessened, and all would be sideways in the medium at the end of penetration. Now we are not talking much, probably no more than the last 5% of total penetration, so the bullet would have already done its work in the field, but still it was something that put a bug in my ass. So, we nicely rounded the sharp edges off of the meplat, and like magic it was now 100% stable to the very end of penetration, and was always found Nose Forward from that point on........ Factor #5 Radius Edge of Meplat..........

 

[schwerpunkt88]

In today's world where we have really good, controlled expansion bullets, like the Barnes TSX, TTSX, LRX or Swift A-Frames, are solids still required? We used solids when your other bullet offerings were mostly cup and core bullets that would blow apart.