Avoiding CTE, brain damage, retina injury etc with big bore rifles ?

[generalzip]

I shoot a 458 win mag that weights maybe 8 lbs with 450 solids at 2330fps. 19.5” barrel. I actually don’t think the recoil is all that bad from a standing position. Funny enough suppressed vs unsuppressed there’s not that much difference in recoil. My 375 ruger however without a suppressor is pretty brutal. With the suppressor it’s very pleasant

 

[HankBuck]

I shoot a 458 win mag that weights maybe 8 lbs with 450 solids at 2330fps. 19.5” barrel. I actually don’t think the recoil is all that bad from a standing position. Funny enough suppressed vs unsuppressed there’s not that much difference in recoil. My 375 ruger however without a suppressor is pretty brutal. With the suppressor it’s very pleasant

@generalzip - since the weight of Suppressors on a large caliber rifles is 8oz or more, How could they Not reduce recoil? Hanging a 1/2 pound of “anything” off the end of your barrel has to reduce recoil somewhat. I would think that the Lighter your rifle is to start with the more dramatic the reduction should be ie: 1/2 lb. added to 7lb rifle vs added to 10lb rifle etc.. I’ve read many posts on AH touting the advantage of hunting with a Suppressor and using ‘hearing protection & recoil reduction’ as reasons.. I wear ear plugs or noise cancelling muffs whenever practice shooting AND also for high volume dove, duck, hunting…. For Big game hunting I will stick in ear plugs before shooting “if” there’s time. I can see a reason for a suppressor for night hunting or close to neighbors property to keep noise down slightly, makes some sense. If I want to tame recoil or barrel jump I’d prefer to add something nicer looking on the end of my barrel — a Potato maybe !

 

[generalzip]

@generalzip - since the weight of Suppressors on a large caliber rifles is 8oz or more, How could they Not reduce recoil? Hanging a 1/2 pound of “anything” off the end of your barrel has to reduce recoil somewhat. I would think that the Lighter your rifle is to start with the more dramatic the reduction should be ie: 1/2 lb. added to 7lb rifle vs added to 10lb rifle etc.. I’ve read many posts on AH touting the advantage of hunting with a Suppressor and using ‘hearing protection & recoil reduction’ as reasons.. I wear ear plugs or noise cancelling muffs whenever practice shooting AND also for high volume dove, duck, hunting…. For Big game hunting I will stick in ear plugs before shooting “if” there’s time. I can see a reason for a suppressor for night hunting or close to neighbors property to keep noise down slightly, makes some sense. If I want to tame recoil or barrel jump I’d prefer to add something nicer looking on the end of my barrel — a Potato maybe !

Sorry maybe I confused you. On my 458 the suppressor weighs around 14oz or so. It def reduces recoil but not a TON like it does on my 375 ruger. My guess for this is because the 458 is a larger bore. This means 2 things. First, larger bores are larger to suppress as more gas escapes for the suppressor than on a smaller bore. The larger bore also has less internal volume. Secondly, a larger bore all things else equal will have a lower muzzle pressure. Muzzle brakes and suppressors become more effective at recoil reduction when muzzle pressure is high. Especially muzzle brakes. Suppressors there’s more nuances with design of baffles etc.

I own around 30 suppressors. I refuse to hunt without one. I’ve done a little hearing damage over the years and for ME I personally refuse to hunt without a suppressor. They allow me to whisper to a PH without ear protection in, make me more aware of the noise I’m making while moving around and are more pleasant for everyone around me. This is why I cut the barrel to 19.5”. Even with the suppressor it’s handy and balances well. I can even still use the iron sights on my M70 although I use a holosun 509t. I still think the rifle looks good with wood stock and I do not regret my decision to chop and thread the barrel and use a red dot and suppressor. This rifle is reserved for dangerous game only and backing up friends on dangerous game. A CEB 450 solid at 2330 fps is no joke and I bet penetrates more than the 500 grain traditional solids.

I’m using 83 grains of reloaded 10x which is an extended stick powder. It’s a compressed load, doesn’t show much if any pressure and should not run into issues ball powders do when compressed. I had to send the rifle to Winchester because of poor extractor tension and would not reliably kick out the last piece of brass. Also the front sight when my gunsmith installed it is SLIGHTLLYYY off to the left so my sights are adjusted in the rear about 75% of the way to the left but still on target and within range of the sights. It’s kind of a moot point as they are there only for backup as I use the red dot which is very reliable and more quick and accurate than iron sights.

After owning this I’d have no hesitation bumping up to a double in a 470/500 NE but I’m not a PH so it’s use is kind of limited and redundant to the 458 win mag. This rifle also shoots 420 raptors with same charge and POI at 2380fps. First 2 rounds are raptors second 2 are solids. If I’m backing up a friend I’ll load only solids.

 

[HankBuck]

Sorry maybe I confused you. On my 458 the suppressor weighs around 14oz or so. It def reduces recoil but not a TON like it does on my 375 ruger. My guess for this is because the 458 is a larger bore. This means 2 things. First, larger bores are larger to suppress as more gas escapes for the suppressor than on a smaller bore. The larger bore also has less internal volume. Secondly, a larger bore all things else equal will have a lower muzzle pressure. Muzzle brakes and suppressors become more effective at recoil reduction when muzzle pressure is high. Especially muzzle brakes. Suppressors there’s more nuances with design of baffles etc.

I own around 30 suppressors. I refuse to hunt without one. I’ve done a little hearing damage over the years and for ME I personally refuse to hunt without a suppressor. They allow me to whisper to a PH without ear protection in, make me more aware of the noise I’m making while moving around and are more pleasant for everyone around me. This is why I cut the barrel to 19.5”. Even with the suppressor it’s handy and balances well. I can even still use the iron sights on my M70 although I use a holosun 509t. I still think the rifle looks good with wood stock and I do not regret my decision to chop and thread the barrel and use a red dot and suppressor. This rifle is reserved for dangerous game only and backing up friends on dangerous game. A CEB 450 solid at 2330 fps is no joke and I bet penetrates more than the 500 grain traditional solids.

I’m using 83 grains of reloaded 10x which is an extended stick powder. It’s a compressed load, doesn’t show much if any pressure and should not run into issues ball powders do when compressed. I had to send the rifle to Winchester because of poor extractor tension and would not reliably kick out the last piece of brass. Also the front sight when my gunsmith installed it is SLIGHTLLYYY off to the left so my sights are adjusted in the rear about 75% of the way to the left but still on target and within range of the sights. It’s kind of a moot point as they are there only for backup as I use the red dot which is very reliable and more quick and accurate than iron sights.

After owning this I’d have no hesitation bumping up to a double in a 470/500 NE but I’m not a PH so it’s use is kind of limited and redundant to the 458 win mag. This rifle also shoots 420 raptors with same charge and POI at 2380fps. First 2 rounds are raptors second 2 are solids. If I’m backing up a friend I’ll load only solids.

@generalzip - you certainly have put in the thought, planning, and know the details far better then I do. Sounds like you have a very effective rifle that is well set up for the type of hunting you enjoy - your knowledge and attention to detail is impressive.

 

[generalzip]

@generalzip - you certainly have put in the thought, planning, and know the details far better then I do. Sounds like you have a very effective rifle that is well set up for the type of hunting you enjoy - your knowledge and attention to detail is impressive.

It’s easy to go down the rabbit hole haha. That said anyone looking to reduce recoil, cutting the barrel shorter and adding a suppressor would be my first thought. If you’re unable to for legal reasons or simply cannot stand the look, a muzzle brake is the next logical thought but just understand you MUST wear hearing protection even when hunting or you will do permanent hearing damage.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The other alternative is step down in caliber/cartridge + increase weight of rifle. I think a 404 or 375 without can/brake can kill just as effectively with 400 or 300 gr ammo and not shake my brains loose if the gun weighs 10+ lbs. Personally, I'm convinced there is such a thing as too much gun. And I can speak from experience: three major retina surgeries to left eye and at least a dozen laser patch jobs to both eyes. The surgeries without general anesthesia are no picnic but the laser treatments are absolute torture. Like a cattle prod going off inside my brain. And unless an eye surgeon is quick at hand, you run a high risk of losing the eye once a detachment starts. I had to wait eight hours to get the next flight to Winnipeg for my first surgery and by then the detachment was nearly to the macula nerve (connects to brain). Once that happens it's lights out ... literally and for good. Even if an African eye surgeon could be found in time, vitrectomy treatment would leave a gas bubble in the eyeball that won't dissipate for two weeks. No flying till then. And you post- middle-aged guys are at increased risk of detachment/tears because aging causes vitreous fluid to thicken and shrink. Playing with big bores is not without permanent catastrophic risks. I am lucky I can still see with my left eye ... sorta (my surgeon is convinced I'm the only person in Canada whose eye survived three operations). Everything is distorted (valley from lower left to upper right) and though I see with that eye (except substantial peripheral loss), my brain cannot decipher what I'm seeing in the scar tissue zones. Any time I'm even slightly fatigued double vision occurs. When shooting moving targets I MUST close the left eye or I will miss.

Think about it. Know the risks. I reccomend choosing to make better shot placement with less risky ammo/guns.

PS: Dr says I'm "over the hump" with vitreous shrinkage. He gave me the green light to resume shooting years ago but my 10 lb 404 is probably pushing the envelope with 400 gr at 2200 fps. Looking at 360 gr when/if I go back to Africa. Needless to say I don't practice with it much!

 

[roklok]

I definitely think there is a such a thing as too much gun. That line is no doubt different for different folks. With that being said I still believe large amounts of recoil can be detrimental even if the effects aren't immediately noticed. I have a co-worker close to my age (50) who just had to have vertebrae fused in his neck. He wasn't sure what caused his issue, but his surgeon told him that he has seen patients that need neck surgery from coughing or sneezing. If a violent cough or sneeze can cause neck issues requiring surgery I am sure heavy recoil has that potential. I am not getting any younger, and want this body to last as long as possible. If I can avoid beating it up a bit I will.

I also own suppressors, and have experienced the drastic recoil reduction they can provide. I do believe a suppressor, like a brake, is more effective at recoil reduction in higher velocity cartridges with higher muzzle pressures. Cartridges with recoil resulting from heavy bullets at a more modest velocity won't see the same effectiveness in recoil reduction. For various reasons I doubt I will ever take a suppressor to Africa however.

 

[generalzip]

The other alternative is step down in caliber/cartridge + increase weight of rifle. I think a 404 or 375 without can/brake can kill just as effectively with 400 or 300 gr ammo and not shake my brains loose if the gun weighs 10+ lbs. Personally, I'm convinced there is such a thing as too much gun. And I can speak from experience: three major retina surgeries to left eye and at least a dozen laser patch jobs to both eyes. The surgeries without general anesthesia are no picnic but the laser treatments are absolute torture. Like a cattle prod going off inside my brain. And unless an eye surgeon is quick at hand, you run a high risk of losing the eye once a detachment starts. I had to wait eight hours to get the next flight to Winnipeg for my first surgery and by then the detachment was nearly to the macula nerve (connects to brain). Once that happens it's lights out ... literally and for good. Even if an African eye surgeon could be found in time, vitrectomy treatment would leave a gas bubble in the eyeball that won't dissipate for two weeks. No flying till then. And you post- middle-aged guys are at increased risk of detachment/tears because aging causes vitreous fluid to thicken and shrink. Playing with big bores is not without permanent catastrophic risks. I am lucky I can still see with my left eye ... sorta (my surgeon is convinced I'm the only person in Canada whose eye survived three operations). Everything is distorted (valley from lower left to upper right) and though I see with that eye (except substantial peripheral loss), my brain cannot decipher what I'm seeing in the scar tissue zones. Any time I'm even slightly fatigued double vision occurs. When shooting moving targets I MUST close the left eye or I will miss.

Think about it. Know the risks. I reccomend choosing to make better shot placement with less risky ammo/guns.

PS: Dr says I'm "over the hump" with vitreous shrinkage. He gave me the green light to resume shooting years ago but my 10 lb 404 is probably pushing the envelope with 400 gr at 2200 fps. Looking at 360 gr when/if I go back to Africa. Needless to say I don't practice with it much!

Glad to hear you’re ok. I’d def recommend adding a suppressor and choooing the barrel shorter. The 375 ruger with a suppressor and 300 grain is not bad to shoot at all and the ballistics will take down an elephants even with a 20” or slightly shorter barrel. Do what you need to in order to do what you love. Shit placement has always and will always trump caliber and if you’re confident in your rifle that’s matters more than anything

 

[towserthemouser]

I don’t want to shoot a 50 BMG ever again
It was a bolt action Barret , and I shot it laying on a shooting mat
The over pressure was so strong , it made my nose sling snot and keeps running
And my eyes to water, way worse then the howitzer they blast off after a touchdown @ the Texas A&M games

Wait, has TAMU started scoring touchdowns now??

 

[towserthemouser]

There is a lot of great discussion and advice on this thread, helpful and educational for me and I suspect many others also. Tons of great strategies for dealing with recoil.

I have a lot of experience with a 375 H&H and some experience with a 416RM and a small amount of experience with 470NE, as well as tons of experience with shotguns including 12ga duck loads and 10ga as well.

I will simply state my personal opinion that I believe there is too much emphasis on "practicing" with a heavy rifle for Africa. I understand that guys want to be ready, prepared, etc. I don't believe big bores are designed or intended for long range sessions. They punish. On both ends. They are a very specialized tool for a very specific task. I would submit the following:

1.) Do enough shooting with your big bore to verify that it fits, that the scope mount is secure, that the action will reliably cycle and feed and eject, and that it's zeroed with your sighting system. Then put it away.

2.) Do all the dry-fire mounting, finding a target in the scope, cycling the bolt, feeling the trigger practice in the world, until your muscle memory is dialed in for that exact rifle and scope/red dot/iron sight combination. Using snap caps or dummy rounds.

3.) Get your old reliable 22 LR (suppressed is even better) and do 98% of your practice with that. Practice off sticks, off trees, free hand, kneeling, prone, off your friends shoulder, cycling the bolt, shooting slow and aimed and deliberate, and shooting fast strings. Breathing. Footwork. Sight picture. Trigger control. Reacquisition of target. Shooting within 2 seconds of your buddy saying "Get on the sticks." Shooting after walking up a hill or doing a few pushups and being a little out of breath. Shooting with the sticks at not quite the right height. Shooting at short range. Shooting at long range. Shooting at unknown or guessed range. Shooting while crouching down a bit. If you're hunting with a big bore DR, do a lot of shooting with light loads in a SxS shotgun (28 ga is wonderful) with the same trigger setup. Shoot until all the above is ho-hum.

The above is analogous to football players "thudding" in practice. This is thudding the other player without the full-on tackle that they would bring in the game. They might thud hundreds of times in practice, but they will be on ESPN if they make 15 tackles in the game.

I would argue that if you shoot 5,000 rounds a year from your 22LR and 10 or 20 rounds a year from your big bore, you will have a great experience and make your PH very happy with you.

 

[generalzip]

There is a lot of great discussion and advice on this thread, helpful and educational for me and I suspect many others also. Tons of great strategies for dealing with recoil.

I have a lot of experience with a 375 H&H and some experience with a 416RM and a small amount of experience with 470NE, as well as tons of experience with shotguns including 12ga duck loads and 10ga as well.

I will simply state my personal opinion that I believe there is too much emphasis on "practicing" with a heavy rifle for Africa. I understand that guys want to be ready, prepared, etc. I don't believe big bores are designed or intended for long range sessions. They punish. On both ends. They are a very specialized tool for a very specific task. I would submit the following:

1.) Do enough shooting with your big bore to verify that it fits, that the scope mount is secure, that the action will reliably cycle and feed and eject, and that it's zeroed with your sighting system. Then put it away.

2.) Do all the dry-fire mounting, finding a target in the scope, cycling the bolt, feeling the trigger practice in the world, until your muscle memory is dialed in for that exact rifle and scope/red dot/iron sight combination. Using snap caps or dummy rounds.

3.) Get your old reliable 22 LR (suppressed is even better) and do 98% of your practice with that. Practice off sticks, off trees, free hand, kneeling, prone, off your friends shoulder, cycling the bolt, shooting slow and aimed and deliberate, and shooting fast strings. Breathing. Footwork. Sight picture. Trigger control. Reacquisition of target. Shooting within 2 seconds of your buddy saying "Get on the sticks." Shooting after walking up a hill or doing a few pushups and being a little out of breath. Shooting with the sticks at not quite the right height. Shooting at short range. Shooting at long range. Shooting at unknown or guessed range. Shooting while crouching down a bit. If you're hunting with a big bore DR, do a lot of shooting with light loads in a SxS shotgun (28 ga is wonderful) with the same trigger setup. Shoot until all the above is ho-hum.

The above is analogous to football players "thudding" in practice. This is thudding the other player without the full-on tackle that they would bring in the game. They might thud hundreds of times in practice, but they will be on ESPN if they make 15 tackles in the game.

I would argue that if you shoot 5,000 rounds a year from your 22LR and 10 or 20 rounds a year from your big bore, you will have a great experience and make your PH very happy with you.

I have a similar mindset but I use 223 or 6.5 creedmoor so I can shoot further and focus on all the above you mentioned. Still cheap comparatively. After around 100 rounds from a big bore I know it’s zeroed and reliable and I put it away except for hunting and a yearly rezero with a few rounds.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

There is a lot of great discussion and advice on this thread, helpful and educational for me and I suspect many others also. Tons of great strategies for dealing with recoil.

I have a lot of experience with a 375 H&H and some experience with a 416RM and a small amount of experience with 470NE, as well as tons of experience with shotguns including 12ga duck loads and 10ga as well.

I will simply state my personal opinion that I believe there is too much emphasis on "practicing" with a heavy rifle for Africa. I understand that guys want to be ready, prepared, etc. I don't believe big bores are designed or intended for long range sessions. They punish. On both ends. They are a very specialized tool for a very specific task. I would submit the following:

1.) Do enough shooting with your big bore to verify that it fits, that the scope mount is secure, that the action will reliably cycle and feed and eject, and that it's zeroed with your sighting system. Then put it away.

2.) Do all the dry-fire mounting, finding a target in the scope, cycling the bolt, feeling the trigger practice in the world, until your muscle memory is dialed in for that exact rifle and scope/red dot/iron sight combination. Using snap caps or dummy rounds.

3.) Get your old reliable 22 LR (suppressed is even better) and do 98% of your practice with that. Practice off sticks, off trees, free hand, kneeling, prone, off your friends shoulder, cycling the bolt, shooting slow and aimed and deliberate, and shooting fast strings. Breathing. Footwork. Sight picture. Trigger control. Reacquisition of target. Shooting within 2 seconds of your buddy saying "Get on the sticks." Shooting after walking up a hill or doing a few pushups and being a little out of breath. Shooting with the sticks at not quite the right height. Shooting at short range. Shooting at long range. Shooting at unknown or guessed range. Shooting while crouching down a bit. If you're hunting with a big bore DR, do a lot of shooting with light loads in a SxS shotgun (28 ga is wonderful) with the same trigger setup. Shoot until all the above is ho-hum.

The above is analogous to football players "thudding" in practice. This is thudding the other player without the full-on tackle that they would bring in the game. They might thud hundreds of times in practice, but they will be on ESPN if they make 15 tackles in the game.

I would argue that if you shoot 5,000 rounds a year from your 22LR and 10 or 20 rounds a year from your big bore, you will have a great experience and make your PH very happy with you.

I'm with you on every point ... almost.

Last fall I was hunting birds in Montana for a month before my resident brother finally showed up the last two days of big game season. The condition of my deer tag is he has to be hunting with me. First morning at daybreak we spot a deer at 500 yards. Not clear what sex so I dropped out of the vehicle to try to get closer while Mike kept an eye on it. Climbed out of the canal and see a huge muley buck headed down the fence line ahead of me. I'm busted but not a shot I can't make ... but I didn't make it. The Timney trigger on my Springfield 03A3 is a LOT lighter than the old A5 shotgun I'd been using to shoot birds. The gun went off prematurely over his head going away. He jumped into the dry canal and disappeared. If it hadn't been so damn cold I probably would have popped a few rounds at the range the day before (I did check zero after arriving in Montana four weeks before). No matter. I got him the next day. Same shot going away same distance 65 yards. Dropped him with a neck shot.

Moral of the story is get the feel for that hunting rifle, either at the range or dry firing practice, but don't erase it using another gun before taking the hunting rifle into the field, especially if they have different trigger weights.

 

[hoytcanon]

Eat a pot roast and ball up...