Avoiding CTE, brain damage, retina injury etc with big bore rifles ?

[Nhoro]

I have a 458 win mag, now Lott. I have used a number of loads from 480 gr DGS bullets, 450 gr to 515 gr Peregrine copper solids. I also loaded various velocities- biggest recoil was a 515 gr at about 2320 fps. I find noise is a big contributor to headaches at the range. If I help out with the big bore shoot at my range, I get a headache without firing a shot. Velocity is the number one contributor to felt recoil in my opinion. So I shoot 515 gr solids by choice. They are at about 2190 fps. Lighter bullets at higher velocity make for a sharp unpleasant recoil. I think the rest has been covered, heavier rifle and good fit and balance help. But for me a heavier bullet at lower velocity feels like a push rather than a smack.

 

[Rare Breed]

Maybe this will help https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...LnFHHwxPjI9s6R2ho9Syd5osgPa8TwILsi&pid=699899

I use this exact product for all the DRs I have had and worked perfectly. Then when in Africa you don’t feel the recoil anyway but man does it help me practice before Africa in a huge way

 

[coreydb]

If it's rattling your brain housing group, it's honestly too much for your body to take.
1. If a .375 H&H is satisfactory for ALL dangerous game, why go bigger?
2. You don't need to put a lot of rounds down range to zero at 100 yds.
3. The most rounds you'll shoot to bring down an animal will be 3-4 Unless it's a cape buffalo
4. Get a muzzle brake installed and pay no attention to the snide remarks from others.
5. Get a silencer. it reduces recoil somewhat.

 

[colorado]

I don't know after 500 full power loads through my 500 Jeffery I can't remember if it recoils or not

 

[Hunt anything]

Not sure about the rifle recoil but it makes a lot of sense. I currently have tremendous trouble with my neck, next to no cartilage between C6&7 and between C5&6. It has been traced back to shooting up to 2 cases of 3 1/2” 12 gauge waterfowl loads a year for around 20 years.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Not sure about the rifle recoil but it makes a lot of sense. I currently have tremendous trouble with my neck, next to no cartilage between C6&7 and between C5&6. It has been traced back to shooting up to 2 cases of 3 1/2” 12 gauge waterfowl loads a year for around 20 years.

Not my neck, but I’m thinking that’s a good trade.

 

[Hunt anything]

Not my neck, but I’m thinking that’s a good trade.

Your probably correct, watching what my father is going through with brain injuries from playing college football and in the army during the 50’s. I’ll take my neck pain no matter how severe over that.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Is your range covered? The blast from any firearm will reflect off the roof and return to you at a 2x amplitude if covered. Wear good muffs with earplugs. I used to be a IPSC National Range Officer and was subjected to thousands of major Power Factor 38 Super and 45acp blasts from compensated handguns. The noise would leave me with a headache by the end of the day. Those are not even close to the blast from a heavy rifle like your 458. I once shot a 50BMG Barrett Rifle under a covered range with only muffs. The blast from the muzzle brake hit me like a punch in the face and made my vision go white for a few seconds. The recoil was less than a 12ga shotgun since the rifle was about 30lbs. For reference I am not recoil sensitive and find the recoil from the 500g full power ammo in the 458WM out of a 11lb CZ550 to be pleasant and very tolerable. But, once I shot my 375HH at the range and failed to hold it firmly with a good cheek weld. That rifle is about 80% the recoil of the 458. Mild in my view. I had been shooting some 22lr matches and was holding the 375 like an egg. Big mistake. It smacked the hell out of me. Purely from poor shooting form. I fired a second shot and that hurt too. I had a bruise the size of my hand for a month from that error. I know guys hunt ele with 375's but if it was my * I would want your 458 for that job.

Something I would suggest no matter which direction you go. Practice shooting tiny little tgts at closer range with a 22lr off of sticks for several weeks prior to your safari. Also shoot mid-size highpower like a 308 or 30-06 from sticks and limit your exposure to the 458. Ideally, you will find a 22lr and a mid-sized rifle that are closely matched to your 458 in size and feel. I use a CZ452 to match the Mauser pattern rifles or a Winchester 52 Sporter. I also use a custom Sako Quad 22lr in a McMillan A5 stock to match the weight of a heavy gun off sticks. I shoot 1/2" DumDum lollipops stuck in a earth berm in my yard at 35y. The 1/2" tgt at 35y is roughly equal to a 3" tgt at 210y. It is a challenging but makeable shot and it trains you to mount the sticks quickly and precisely the same way each time and to quickly acquire the sight picture and take the shot. 3-5 sec is the par time for such a shot. That is about how long a Kudu will stand still once it is aware of you. I try to be proficient enough to make five DumDum shots in a row without a miss each day leading up to my hunt. It works. I went to the range yesterday with my pair of Safari Rifles for a final range session and shot about eight rounds from each off sticks at a 200y steel plate. All hits, no misses and all the hits from both rifles made a nice pattern about 6" in diameter. The plate was 8"x12" rectangle, and a 2nd was 6" diam round. It is a great confidence booster prior to a Safari. Time to switch on Predator Mode.

For Ele, you will likely shoot offhand at very close range. For that the same approach works. Shoot a golfball sized tgt or plate rack at 30-ish yds with the small bore until it is automatic and then transition to the big bore. That helps you to train without bashing your gourd with recoil and muzzle blast all day, every day. My 2-cents.

 

[Russ16]

Is your range covered? The blast from any firearm will reflect off the roof and return to you at a 2x amplitude if covered. Wear good muffs with earplugs. I used to be a IPSC National Range Officer and was subjected to thousands of major Power Factor 38 Super and 45acp blasts from compensated handguns. The noise would leave me with a headache by the end of the day. Those are not even close to the blast from a heavy rifle like your 458. I once shot a 50BMG Barrett Rifle under a covered range with only muffs. The blast from the muzzle brake hit me like a punch in the face and made my vision go white for a few seconds. The recoil was less than a 12ga shotgun since the rifle was about 30lbs. For reference I am not recoil sensitive and find the recoil from the 500g full power ammo in the 458WM out of a 11lb CZ550 to be pleasant and very tolerable. But, once I shot my 375HH at the range and failed to hold it firmly with a good cheek weld. That rifle is about 80% the recoil of the 458. Mild in my view. I had been shooting some 22lr matches and was holding the 375 like an egg. Big mistake. It smacked the hell out of me. Purely from poor shooting form. I fired a second shot and that hurt too. I had a bruise the size of my hand for a month from that error. I know guys hunt ele with 375's but if it was my * I would want your 458 for that job.

Something I would suggest no matter which direction you go. Practice shooting tiny little tgts at closer range with a 22lr off of sticks for several weeks prior to your safari. Also shoot mid-size highpower like a 308 or 30-06 from sticks and limit your exposure to the 458. Ideally, you will find a 22lr and a mid-sized rifle that are closely matched to your 458 in size and feel. I use a CZ452 to match the Mauser pattern rifles or a Winchester 52 Sporter. I also use a custom Sako Quad 22lr in a McMillan A5 stock to match the weight of a heavy gun off sticks. I shoot 1/2" DumDum lollipops stuck in a earth berm in my yard at 35y. The 1/2" tgt at 35y is roughly equal to a 3" tgt at 210y. It is a challenging but makeable shot and it trains you to mount the sticks quickly and precisely the same way each time and to quickly acquire the sight picture and take the shot. 3-5 sec is the par time for such a shot. That is about how long a Kudu will stand still once it is aware of you. I try to be proficient enough to make five DumDum shots in a row without a miss each day leading up to my hunt. It works. I went to the range yesterday with my pair of Safari Rifles for a final range session and shot about eight rounds from each off sticks at a 200y steel plate. All hits, no misses and all the hits from both rifles made a nice pattern about 6" in diameter. The plate was 8"x12" rectangle, and a 2nd was 6" diam round. It is a great confidence booster prior to a Safari. Time to switch on Predator Mode.

For Ele, you will likely shoot offhand at very close range. For that the same approach works. Shoot a golfball sized tgt or plate rack at 30-ish yds with the small bore until it is automatic and then transition to the big bore. That helps you to train without bashing your gourd with recoil and muzzle blast all day, every day. My 2-cents.

I just picked up a model 52 reproduction to do just this.

 

[HankBuck]

Not sure about the rifle recoil but it makes a lot of sense. I currently have tremendous trouble with my neck, next to no cartilage between C6&7 and between C5&6. It has been traced back to shooting up to 2 cases of 3 1/2” 12 gauge waterfowl loads a year for around 20 years.

@Hunt anything - it’s interesting that once Doctors hear that you Shoot or Hunt that becomes the “cause” of your problems: Hearing issues? It’s gunfire, bad shoulder? It’s recoil? Both my Mom and Father had hearing loss by their 50s and Father very rarely hunted and Mother NEVER did… but Now that I have some hearing loss after 60 the Doctor said “Oh, its from your shooting” (And for that he gets paid??). Shooting becomes a catch all for some health issues that may well be related to genetics.

 

[dougfinn]

The British called them headache guns. Any rifle with a recoil velocity over 15 fps fell into this category. My 450/400 double was good for 6 shots, with shots 7 and 8 giving me an immediate headache. My .375 weighed 11 pounds and never gave me that problem. I had a Ruger no.1 in .458 win. It shook my molars so badly that I never noticed if it gave me a headache or not. For the health of my brain I sold all my heavy hitters.

 

[chashardy]

I see from the builder's specs sheet your gun has 13.5" LOP. Unless you have short arms and neck, I suspect the stock may be a bit short for 5'11" man, especially slight build (170 lbs). Add a slip-on recoil pad and see if that makes a difference. NOT Limbsaver. They are too soft, especially for thumper guns. Collapse too fast under heavy recoil. Also, their slip-on recoil pads are too squirrely. They don't stay put on the stock. Prone to slipping sideways. Pachmayer Decelerator are excellent but be aware their slip-on is designed for easy on ... and easy off too. I have lost several pheasant hunting in thick cover. They now make a cheaper no frills conventional model (Renegade?) that stays stuck much better. Also does not have the Decelerator's hard rubber tip at the top of the butt. That feature is nice for quick mounting and not grabbing clothes but don't lean your gun up against the wall on a hard floor. It will slip and fall over instantly.

If you do decide to try adding a slip-on, I would advise wrapping your middle finger of shooting hand with a bandaid or two above the knuckle. That heavy recoil gun will laterally jump back significantly wearing two recoil pads. The trigger guard will likely slam into that finger. I speak from experience wearing two recoil pads on my 3" mag goose gun. And if you put on a Limbsaver, your finger will definitely get hammered. Shooting trap loads with one of those really hurt me. Limbsaver are all around the most overrated piece of crap gun gear on the market. Catchy name and that's it.

This is where I would focus. If the rifle doesn't fit you, felt recoil and all of your symptoms may be the result. Make sure the rifle fits you correctly. I shoot a 416 Rigby--the Big Game model from Rigby--and it fits me great. Felt recoil is more of a push through my shoulder--no slap to my cheek or head. No headaches or other issues.

 

[colorado]

Same with me and my 500 Jeffery, but I don't shoot more than 10 rounds at a time and I used to box so probably have head injuries already.

 

[Black Fly]

I had to have a retina repair after a day of big bore shooting. If I recall correctly it was two boxes of 416Taylor 400 grain loads, two boxes of 376 300 grainers and a box and a half of 9.3x74's. I used to shoot until I got what I called the jingles. I considered myself recoil proof. That Doc had me take a 2 month brake. I've since had a number of pretty serious back surgeries. My neurosurgeon is a shooter. He has explained that while recoil is primarily on the shoulder, it has shock wave of effects on the brain and the rest of the body, from the recoil, noise and a general shock wave. Nerves are not like bones and muscles. They don't heal and regenerate, so the effects accumulate. So see a real neurologist. Loosing motor control or having memory loss can result from exposure to recoil.
Yeah, and wear good hearing protection, I'm barely able to hear even with hearing aids.
Bfly

 

[Hunt anything]

@Hunt anything - it’s interesting that once Doctors hear that you Shoot or Hunt that becomes the “cause” of your problems: Hearing issues? It’s gunfire, bad shoulder? It’s recoil? Both my Mom and Father had hearing loss by their 50s and Father very rarely hunted and Mother NEVER did… but Now that I have some hearing loss after 60 the Doctor said “Oh, its from your shooting” (And for that he gets paid??). Shooting becomes a catch all for some health issues that may well be related to genetics.

You’re probably correct, I failed to mention I was a catcher in baseball from the age of around 10 until I retired at 28, too many foul balls to the face mask and not to mention hits to the back of the head on guys that had a big follow through.

Back to the OP’s question. I limit my .416 Rigby and .375 Ruger sessions on the range to not more than 5 shots off the sticks .

 

[roklok]

The British called them headache guns. Any rifle with a recoil velocity over 15 fps fell into this category. My 450/400 double was good for 6 shots, with shots 7 and 8 giving me an immediate headache. My .375 weighed 11 pounds and never gave me that problem. I had a Ruger no.1 in .458 win. It shook my molars so badly that I never noticed if it gave me a headache or not. For the health of my brain I sold all my heavy hitters.

That's interesting from a historical perspective. Makes me feel better that I am not the only one, but still don't want to abuse my brain. The funny thing about the .458 is I feel the rifle does fit me well, and is comfortable to shoot, except for the headache part. In fact after firing the first round through it I was thinking "this thing is a pussycat", by round 4 I had a headache and a weird "full" feeling in my head that lasted for 4 or 5 days. A week later I shot it again with similar results.

I have added weight and will load a few rounds at a target velocity of 2200 FPS instead of 2300+ and see how that treats me. I have a slip on pad I will try as well. I am shooting outdoors at my personal range, not covered or indoors.

I think whether a headache occurs or not, heavy recoil has some detrimental effect on the human body, any human body. Slow motion video of big bores shows recoil spreading in a shockwave rippling through the entire upper torso and head. I certainly intend to limit the amount of full power loads through this rifle, at this point I am just trying to zero the iron sights I installed. After the scope is mounted it will be a bit heavier, and zeroing the scope should be quick. Then just have to play a bit to make sure softs and solids hit near the same POI. I have a lovely Mauser in 7x57 that I shoot to maintain familiarity with the M98 and avoid unnecessary abuse.

 

[colorado]

Smart