Arrows for my safari

[Green Chile]

To the original question, I have the same hunt coming up and I'm going with Day Six arrows and their metal outserts. I also went with their single blade broadhead and built a heavier arrow around it.

 

[Hall]

You're comparing apples to oranges. The old thin walled Superlight shafts were indeed fragile. I remember 2512s that became popular in the early 90s that could be split with a good (or bad) hit. It didn't take me long to realize this and walk away from them. 14 or even better 16/1000" walls could take a beating. Chuxk Adams was a big fan of 2317s as I recall. A pretty resilient aluminum arrow. And you're neglecting that these also have a core of carbon. The combination of the two materials makes for some strong, tough and heavier arrow shafts in my experience. I've shot FMJ for over a decade, they've taken a beating and kept going. And a heavy shaft is not a detriment in my book, it's part of the whole. As for the FOC, it is adjusted up front, regardless of the shaft compositions with point weights and inserts.

Dropping shaft GPI will increase your FOC. Meaning I can keep my dynamic spine in check at a lower point weight for a higher foc. More foc= more better. You can also MASSIVELY adjust foc by fletching choice. Something like a max stealth vs a gateway rayzer feather can lead to percentage increase of 3% or more.

 

[BSO Dave]

Every single bow hunter I know shoots an extremely well tuned bow. Your tune is everything. Most if the heavy arrow guys I run into quote Ashby but haven't read the study, or they say "for low poundage shooters". I posted an extremely simplified version of it for everyone to see. Weight is 6th and 12th most important. On primarily rifle culled asiatic water buffalo ribs, with stick bows that don't deliver the KE of todays bows, and of course, with very inconsistent FOCs. Almost all bowhunters, those in Africa included have messed up big time if they've hit a bone that big. The only concession I'd make to this is hippo, rhino, elephant and cape buffalo. The difference in weights I'll show below hit both sides of the scale, light and heavy. From the same bow, tuned to shoot bare shaft bullet holes @ 5 yards, velocities verified over 2 separate chronographs. They are VERY close in the precious momentum (KEs arent close because of squared velocity in the formula, I know). Less flight time means less wind deflection, and a better chance of the arrow not being ducked. If my logic is flawed, please point out where I love learning.

I have read all of your posts and I have to say I'm still confused as to what exact points you are trying to make? In some regard, you have stated that you agree with the advantages of building arrows with heavier total arrow weights and FOC's, and then in other posts you have said these factors are not significant for effective arrow penetration and way down on the list of importance according to Ashby's findings? Can you clarify what you are actually trying to convey in your posts?

I can't speak for any of the "heavy arrow guys" that you run into, but I can assure you that I have a deep understanding of the physics of arrow flight and performance using not only Ashby's findings as reference point, but from my own personal experiences and experimentations over the course of 40 years of bowhunting. I have put lots of arrows through lots of live animals over that course of time and have thoroughly analyzed the results.

I'm also interested to know if you yourself have ever taken any large game with a bow like a Cape buffalo, Asian water buffalo, or even an eland? If so, what was your set-up?

I assume you have made your conclusions in reference to Ashby's most recent list of The 12 Penetrating Enhancing Factors by which I have included the link at the end if anyone else is interested in reading it (which I highly recommend).. However, what I think you are either missing or dismissing is the part of Ashby's findings with specific regard to total arrow weight, FOC, momentum, and how they all collectively play the most significant roles in optimizing penetration especially FOR LOWER POUNDAGE SHOOTERS which has been my main point of contention in offering advice throughout this entire discussion.

Ashby's quote: "You should always use the heaviest arrow possible that has a trajectory that you still find acceptable. Even with every other penetration-enhancing factor in place, greater arrow mass still equates to more usable force, and more outcome-penetration (See article: Momentum, Kinetic Energy, and Arrow Penetration.) Please note that the foregoing makes little mention of the arrow’s Kinetic Energy (KE). That is because KE is not a predictor of outcome tissue penetration and, by its very definition, not a measure of an arrow’s force. The last decade of data, collected from thousands of shots from real hunting situations, provides clear evidence that arrow Kinetic Energy is more sales hype than useful indicator of terminal arrow performance. Kinetic Energy should be used as neither guideline nor requirement for terminal arrow performance."

I would also add that these online archery calculators that you reference are certainly one of many tools that have a use, but they are limited in their value and should only be used as a starting reference point. In my opinion, these calculators, or any other single source of reference should not be regarded as Gospel for anyone's hunting set-up. Computer algorithms cannot account for real hunting conditions such as weather, shot placement, shot distance, animal movement, hide, flesh & bone density ect..

What I have found to be true is that the best and most reliable guidance comes from consistent information obtained from multiple different sources who have practical experience to offer like hunters here offering advice who have collectively shot scores if not hundreds of African game animals from which to base that advice.

Dr. Ashby Studies

Dr. Ashby Audio Clotting Cascade (Audio) Dr. AshbyReports 12 Penetration Enhancing Factors (2019 update) Clotting Cascade Perfect Bowhunter Getting an Edge on Success Characteristics of a Good Broadhead Why Single Bevel Broadheads Understanding and Applying FOC

dangercloseoutdoors.com

 

[Hall]

I have read all of your posts and I have to say I'm still confused as to what exact points you are trying to make? In some regard, you have stated that you agree with the advantages of building arrows with heavier total arrow weights and FOC's, and then in other posts you have said these factors are not significant for effective arrow penetration and way down on the list of importance according to Ashby's findings? Can you clarify what you are actually trying to convey in your posts?

I can't speak for any of the "heavy arrow guys" that you run into, but I can assure you that I have a deep understanding of the physics of arrow flight and performance using not only Ashby's findings as reference point, but from my own personal experiences and experimentations over the course of 40 years of bowhunting. I have put lots of arrows through lots of live animals over that course of time and have thoroughly analyzed the results.

I'm also interested to know if you yourself have ever taken any large game with a bow like a Cape buffalo, Asian water buffalo, or even an eland? If so, what was your set-up?

I assume you have made your conclusions in reference to Ashby's most recent list of The 12 Penetrating Enhancing Factors by which I have included the link at the end if anyone else is interested in reading it (which I highly recommend).. However, what I think you are either missing or dismissing is the part of Ashby's findings with specific regard to total arrow weight, FOC, momentum, and how they all collectively play the most significant roles in optimizing penetration especially FOR LOWER POUNDAGE SHOOTERS which has been my main point of contention in offering advice throughout this entire discussion.

Ashby's quote: "You should always use the heaviest arrow possible that has a trajectory that you still find acceptable. Even with every other penetration-enhancing factor in place, greater arrow mass still equates to more usable force, and more outcome-penetration (See article: Momentum, Kinetic Energy, and Arrow Penetration.) Please note that the foregoing makes little mention of the arrow’s Kinetic Energy (KE). That is because KE is not a predictor of outcome tissue penetration and, by its very definition, not a measure of an arrow’s force. The last decade of data, collected from thousands of shots from real hunting situations, provides clear evidence that arrow Kinetic Energy is more sales hype than useful indicator of terminal arrow performance. Kinetic Energy should be used as neither guideline nor requirement for terminal arrow performance."

I would also add that these online archery calculators that you reference are certainly one of many tools that have a use, but they are limited in their value and should only be used as a starting reference point. In my opinion, these calculators, or any other single source of reference should not be regarded as Gospel for anyone's hunting set-up. Computer algorithms cannot account for real hunting conditions such as weather, shot placement, shot distance, animal movement, hide, flesh & bone density ect..

What I have found to be true is that the best and most reliable guidance comes from consistent information obtained from multiple different sources who have practical experience to offer like hunters here offering advice who have collectively shot scores if not hundreds of African game animals from which to base that advice.

Dr. Ashby Studies

Dr. Ashby Audio Clotting Cascade (Audio) Dr. AshbyReports 12 Penetration Enhancing Factors (2019 update) Clotting Cascade Perfect Bowhunter Getting an Edge on Success Characteristics of a Good Broadhead Why Single Bevel Broadheads Understanding and Applying FOC

dangercloseoutdoors.com

I've yet to have the opportunity to take any game larger than deer and hogs. I've heard and read Ashby say that, I've also read a fair bit of the study itself. He's bad about doing tests where there's more than one change to the arrow. I believe he is spot on about many things, but I don't believe arrow weight to be one of them. To prove this I'll need to take some larger game (fingers crossed, hoping to pull a moose tag this year). I've advocated for higher FOC, not higher weight. For structural integrity, perfect flight, good broadheads, a shaft diameter smaller than your ferrule, and having VERY sharp broadheads. I've done a ton of reading and research and found that MANY elk and moose die to 400-500grain arrow pass throughs annually. It's my opinion that modern bows have changed archery as much as modern rifles have changed hunting. Feel free to write my opinion off, but like you said, testing isn't hunting. And the animal moving plays a HUGE part in bow hunting. I'm willing to replicate any test you send my way however and will send you or publicly post the results and my findings.

 

[BSO Dave]

You've offered quite a few opinions here going in a lot of different directions.. I want to address each claim/opinion on it's own merit.

I've yet to have the opportunity to take any game larger than deer and hogs.

With all due respect, your opinions and recommendations to the OP on what would be the best arrow build for his upcoming plainsgame hunt doesn't really carry a lot of weight considering that you yourself have no practical experience with bowhunting for African plainsgame or any other larger game animals. That advice is best left to folks with experience in hunting African plainsgame.

I've heard and read Ashby say that, I've also read a fair bit of the study itself. He's bad about doing tests where there's more than one change to the arrow. I believe he is spot on about many things, but I don't believe arrow weight to be one of them.

You can choose to believe or not believe anything you like, but you should base those beliefs on factual experience, and not what you feel or what you have read.. I don't base my opinions solely upon Ashby's findings or any other single data source. I base them on multiple sources with Ashby's findings and theories being a significant part simply because they have proven to be true in the field on live game animals in real hunting situations from my own experiences.

This is worth repeating because it is so significantly true where penetration is concerned.. As Ashby correctly states, "Even with every other penetration-enhancing factor in place, greater arrow mass still equates to more usable force, and more outcome-penetration".

Here is an easy, simple experiment that you can do right now that will prove this beyond all doubt... With this experiment, you can set aside all of the so-called more significant factors and simply focus on determining whether or not greater arrow mass and higher FOC will result in greater penetration.

To best demonstrate this, use a bow with a draw weight of 60lbs or less. The lighter the draw weight, the more significant the difference in penetration will be. Utilize two identical arrows that have the same exact shaft, spine, fletches, ect.. Screw a 200-300gr field point onto one arrow and a 100gr field point onto another. Shoot them both into the exact same target medium at the same distance as many times as you deem necessary.. I absolutely guarantee you that the heavier arrow will penetrate significantly farther into that target than the lighter arrow 100 out of 100 times. Furthermore, the heavier arrow will only continue to penetrate farther as the total arrow weight and FOC are increased up to that optimum level of the bell curve where arrow weight overtakes kinetic energy and the level begins to fall. However, that peak of the curve will be substantially heavier than most are prepared to believe..

I've done a ton of reading and research and found that MANY elk and moose die to 400-500grain arrow pass throughs annually.

In making this statement, you are ignoring significant parts of the equation that may facilitate this which are draw weight, draw length, and broadhead design just to name a few of the most critical considerations.. If they are indeed getting consistent pass-thrus, chances are they are shooting 65+ pounds of draw and have a 27" or greater draw length, and NOT shooting an expandable broadhead.

Just as many if not more elk, moose, or whatever other species you care to name are lost with arrows in the 400-500gr range because the overall combination of bow, arrow, and broadhead are all, or in part, insufficient to create enough momentum for effective penetration. As I have said many times in this and other similar threads, hunter's who are capable of shooting higher poundages and longer draw lengths have exponentially higher mechanical advantages over hunters who shoot lower poundages and shorter draw lengths. Those mechanical advantages allows them to make up for momentum lost due to friction created by poor broadhead choices or momentum lost from shooting lighter arrows.

To exemplify this watch ANY hunting show on TV today where a hunter is using a low poundage compound bow and a shorter draw length and 9 times out of 10 you will see the result is half or less of the arrow sticking out of the side of the animal as it runs off. This is a direct result of too light of an arrow likely paired with the absolute wrong broadhead. I hate to cite specific examples, but this is blatantly apparent with many of the "celebrity" female hunters who shoot light poundages with expandable broadheads. Ironically, they don't need to shoot more poundage to get better penetration... They only need to shoot a heavier arrow with the right broadhead.

It's my opinion that modern bows have changed archery as much as modern rifles have changed hunting.

The vast majority of technological advances in bows have come in the form of improved draw cycles, & let-off options, vibration reduction, and consistency. The truth is that the level of kinetic energy they are capable of producing has remained relatively the same since compound bows have been invented. You still have to be able to draw 70lbs of weight at some point in the draw cycle to shoot a 70lb. bow today just as you did in the late 1960's. How that weight is distributed across the draw cycle and how it's stored at full draw is what has changed significantly with modern bows.. This is precisely why the greatest advancements in bowhunting have come not in the form of the bow's technology per se, but in the form of better understanding of the physics behind arrow flight and smarter use of that momentum.

Feel free to write my opinion off, but like you said, testing isn't hunting.

You are correct that testing is not hunting.. My advice offered here to the OP doesn't come from Ashby's testing or findings.. It comes from 40+ years of bowhunting and the successful taking of hundreds of animals species from all over this planet. But, it mostly comes from the unfortunate handful of lost animals over those same years, and by the lessons learned and applied toward improving equipment and techniques to be as effective as possible. I know what works in Africa, because I ALSO KNOW WHAT DOESN'T..

You are of course free to have any opinions that you like, but you would be better served to offer them based on factual experience rather than what you would like to be true.

 

[Hall]

You've offered quite a few opinions here going in a lot of different directions.. I want to address each claim/opinion on it's own merit.



With all due respect, your opinions and recommendations to the OP on what would be the best arrow build for his upcoming plainsgame hunt doesn't really carry a lot of weight considering that you yourself have no practical experience with bowhunting for African plainsgame or any other larger game animals. That advice is best left to folks with experience in hunting African plainsgame.



You can choose to believe or not believe anything you like, but you should base those beliefs on factual experience, and not what you feel or what you have read.. I don't base my opinions solely upon Ashby's findings or any other single data source. I base them on multiple sources with Ashby's findings and theories being a significant part simply because they have proven to be true in the field on live game animals in real hunting situations from my own experiences.

This is worth repeating because it is so significantly true where penetration is concerned.. As Ashby correctly states, "Even with every other penetration-enhancing factor in place, greater arrow mass still equates to more usable force, and more outcome-penetration".

Here is an easy, simple experiment that you can do right now that will prove this beyond all doubt... With this experiment, you can set aside all of the so-called more significant factors and simply focus on determining whether or not greater arrow mass and higher FOC will result in greater penetration.

To best demonstrate this, use a bow with a draw weight of 60lbs or less. The lighter the draw weight, the more significant the difference in penetration will be. Utilize two identical arrows that have the same exact shaft, spine, fletches, ect.. Screw a 200-300gr field point onto one arrow and a 100gr field point onto another. Shoot them both into the exact same target medium at the same distance as many times as you deem necessary.. I absolutely guarantee you that the heavier arrow will penetrate significantly farther into that target than the lighter arrow 100 out of 100 times. Furthermore, the heavier arrow will only continue to penetrate farther as the total arrow weight and FOC are increased up to that optimum level of the bell curve where arrow weight overtakes kinetic energy and the level begins to fall. However, that peak of the curve will be substantially heavier than most are prepared to believe..



In making this statement, you are ignoring significant parts of the equation that may facilitate this which are draw weight, draw length, and broadhead design just to name a few of the most critical considerations.. If they are indeed getting consistent pass-thrus, chances are they are shooting 65+ pounds of draw and have a 27" or greater draw length, and NOT shooting an expandable broadhead.

Just as many if not more elk, moose, or whatever other species you care to name are lost with arrows in the 400-500gr range because the overall combination of bow, arrow, and broadhead are all, or in part, insufficient to create enough momentum for effective penetration. As I have said many times in this and other similar threads, hunter's who are capable of shooting higher poundages and longer draw lengths have exponentially higher mechanical advantages over hunters who shoot lower poundages and shorter draw lengths. Those mechanical advantages allows them to make up for momentum lost due to friction created by poor broadhead choices or momentum lost from shooting lighter arrows.

To exemplify this watch ANY hunting show on TV today where a hunter is using a low poundage compound bow and a shorter draw length and 9 times out of 10 you will see the result is half or less of the arrow sticking out of the side of the animal as it runs off. This is a direct result of too light of an arrow likely paired with the absolute wrong broadhead. I hate to cite specific examples, but this is blatantly apparent with many of the "celebrity" female hunters who shoot light poundages with expandable broadheads. Ironically, they don't need to shoot more poundage to get better penetration... They only need to shoot a heavier arrow with the right broadhead.



The vast majority of technological advances in bows have come in the form of improved draw cycles, & let-off options, vibration reduction, and consistency. The truth is that the level of kinetic energy they are capable of producing has remained relatively the same since compound bows have been invented. You still have to be able to draw 70lbs of weight at some point in the draw cycle to shoot a 70lb. bow today just as you did in the late 1960's. How that weight is distributed across the draw cycle and how it's stored at full draw is what has changed significantly with modern bows.. This is precisely why the greatest advancements in bowhunting have come not in the form of the bow's technology per se, but in the form of better understanding of the physics behind arrow flight and smarter use of that momentum.



You are correct that testing is not hunting.. My advice offered here to the OP doesn't come from Ashby's testing or findings.. It comes from 40+ years of bowhunting and the successful taking of hundreds of animals species from all over this planet. But, it mostly comes from the unfortunate handful of lost animals over those same years, and by the lessons learned and applied toward improving equipment and techniques to be as effective as possible. I know what works in Africa, because I ALSO KNOW WHAT DOESN'T..

You are of course free to have any opinions that you like, but you would be better served to offer them based on factual experience rather than what you would like to be true.

The efficiency of bows and how they translate a 70 pound draw into KE has become vastly better in even the last 10 years I've been bow hunting. I know a few of the bows specifically that have gotten consistent elk pass throughs, and some are as low as a 26.5" draw @ 70 pounds. I'll agree that if you can't pull a 70 pound bow either load up weight or use a rifle... that said, I know no one who isn't using a 70+ pound bow. I've never said use a poor quality broadhead. You'll see since you read my posts that I recommend iron will broadheads. Also, in your experiment you'll notice you changed both weight and FOC substantially. It is exceedingly hard to pin down just a single variable to ACTUALLY test something without it being a multivariate analysis. I'll test your theory in the morning and send you the results. Would you like them PM'd or here on the thread.

 

[rookhawk]

The efficiency of bows and how they translate a 70 pound draw into KE has become vastly better in even the last 10 years I've been bow hunting. I know a few of the bows specifically that have gotten consistent elk pass throughs, and some are as low as a 26.5" draw @ 70 pounds. I'll agree that if you can't pull a 70 pound bow either load up weight or use a rifle... that said, I know no one who isn't using a 70+ pound bow. I've never said use a poor quality broadhead. You'll see since you read my posts that I recommend iron will broadheads. Also, in your experiment you'll notice you changed both weight and FOC substantially. It is exceedingly hard to pin down just a single variable to ACTUALLY test something without it being a multivariate analysis. I'll test your theory in the morning and send you the results. Would you like them PM'd or here on the thread.

The more you speak, the less I respect your expertise on bows. It seems like you’ve got this figured out and you’ve come here to debate it while arguing 2+2=5. Tell ya what, go drop a quarter mill on say 15 safaris and then come back and endorse your ideas. Right now, you’re literally making recommendations to others with zero real world experience relevant to the OP.

Good thing math, physics, and my nine year old all come to the same conclusions. Sadly, those conclusions are something you wish to buck on an African safari forum versus on a whitetail speedbow forum.

If you’re not getting a pass through on animals less than 8 tons, you’re doing it wrong.

Your heaviest arrow is 50gr less than my kids started with for turkey at 7 years old, 200gr less than a suitable plains game setup, and about 800gr less than a buffalo rig. You can get away with using the wrong gear and boasting of its success when you’re hunting north american game but your margin of error in Africa is considerably less and it flies in the face of physics.

 

[1dirthawker]

To best demonstrate this, use a bow with a draw weight of 60lbs or less. The lighter the draw weight, the more significant the difference in penetration will be. Utilize two identical arrows that have the same exact shaft, spine, fletches, ect.. Screw a 200-300gr field point onto one arrow and a 100gr field point onto another. Shoot them both into the exact same target medium at the same distance as many times as you deem necessary.. I absolutely guarantee you that the heavier arrow will penetrate significantly farther into that target than the lighter arrow 100 out of 100 times.

+1

i was gonna suggest the same test. yes you increase wt. and FOC, but, that was the point! increasing the weight, it will invariably increase FOC. anyway, both rook hawk and BSO dave are on the right road on this subject.

 

[BSO Dave]

Also, in your experiment you'll notice you changed both weight and FOC substantially.

Yes, exactly..! The two things that you said were far less important that other criteria for increasing momentum translating into penetration.

I'll test your theory in the morning and send you the results. Would you like them PM'd or here on the thread.

No need to PM me with the results.. I already know what they will be.. The experiment was suggested for you, not me...

I was hoping if you saw the obvious results for yourself, you would understand the concept better and place more credibility on real results rather than theory or online calculators. As @rookhawk and @1dirthawker have correctly mentioned, the math and physics behind this are very simple. But, the manufactures don't sell new $1200 bows every year if they acknowledge that in all likelihood, the average bowhunter only really need to spend a few bucks on tweaking your arrows and selecting the most efficient broadheads..

 

[rookhawk]

Yes, exactly..! The two things that you said were far less important that other criteria for increasing momentum translating into penetration.



No need to PM me with the results.. I already know what they will be.. The experiment was suggested for you, not me...

I was hoping if you saw the obvious results for yourself, you would understand the concept better and place more credibility on real results rather than theory or online calculators. As @rookhawk and @1dirthawker have correctly mentioned, the math and physics behind this are very simple. But, the manufactures don't sell new $1200 bows every year if they acknowledge that in all likelihood, the average bowhunter only really need to spend a few bucks on tweaking your arrows and selecting the most efficient broadheads..

The reason that experiments actually UNDER deliver compared to real-world is that the impact mediums are usually homogenous. E.g. ballistics gel.

The reason high FOC heavy arrows do better than even the studies show in real world conditions is a simple principle of physics related to momentum. Light objects shed energy quickly upon impact, heavy objects do not. (object in motion tends to stay in motion, etc.)

What that means real-world is that the first thing a slighly misplaced shot hits could be shoulder, and a heavy arrow is more likely to break that shoulder and keep moving through it whereas a lighter arrow (even at higher velocity) is more likely to shed its energy and stop abruptly.

KE without Momentum is worthless.

 

[firehuntfish]

I know what works in Africa, because I ALSO KNOW WHAT DOESN'T..

Great advice! I love this quote especially @BSO Dave !

I share the exact same sentiments. Our first trip over to Africa was a learning curve not only for me, but for my wife who shoots a lighter poundage bow. On her first bowhunting trip over she had mixed results. She struggled with penetration issues mainly because we heeded the incorrect advice that the same "whitetail" set up she uses at home will work just fine for African plainsgame. That advice came from other hunters who just assumed everyone going to Africa was also shooting a 70lb. bow with a long draw length.

My struggles came more in the form of experimenting with different broadheads and some of the most popular and marketed brands specifically. Although I was shooting a heavier than average arrow at the time, poor choices of broadheads really affected the amount of penetration I got (or should I say didn't get) with some of the animals shot with expandables.

After experimenting with a few different arrow builds since that first trip, she now has a set up that has her at the top of the curve and maximizes every ounce of momentum she is capable of generating. Her results in regard to increased penetration have been miraculous to say the least..

Since that first trip over, I have been consulting bowhunting clients for nearly 17 years, and there are 3 main recommendations that I make for all clients going to Africa:

1) Shoot the heaviest arrow possible that flys well from your set up and choose a heavy duty, cut on contact, fixed-blade, broadhead design that will minimize friction.

2) Study the anatomy and shot placement on African game to maximize every shot opportunity.

3) Come well-practiced & comfortable with your equipment, know your limitations, and practice shooting from inside hides.

 

[1dirthawker]

'll agree that if you can't pull a 70 pound bow either load up weight or use a rifle... that said, I know no one who isn't using a 70+ pound bow.

btw,

i use a 65# mathews bow. yeah, i can pull 70#, just don't need to. I'm getting 241 fps out of my bow with a 650 gr arrow. using cut throat or grizzly stick broad heads (they both shoot to same poi, imagine that!) and they will shoot thru any animal i am gonna shoot here in alaska.

if i was going to hunt cape buffalo i would up my arrow weight and my bow poundage (to 70-75#) and at the ranges one will shoot a buffalo with a bow, that would work just fine. anything else, my current setup will do just fine.

a buddy of mine did the experiment above with the same bow shooting into the same target with a 450 gr and a 650 gr arrow, the heavier arrow of course penetrated noticeably deeper, i can't wait for him to shoot an elk with his new setup. his son shot a nice mule deer, got complete pass thru.

 

[mdwest]

Excellent summary @BSO Dave!

I especially agree with the significance of finding that optimal performance arrow weight & broadhead choice combination for lighter poundage shooters. Just like yours, my wife struggled with penetration issues with lighter arrows at 52lbs at 27" of draw. After considerable trial and error, she now gets amazing consistent results with a Carbon Express Piledrivers weighing 550 grains in total. She shoots a Muzzy Trocar broadhead that performs extremely well as part of the combination. She gets pass-throughs on most of the animals she has shot including species as large as an eland. Shooting the right heavier arrow weight and broadhead combo has been a huge difference maker in her success. I cannot stress this enough to our bowhunting clients, and especially to those who shoot lower poundage bows.

View attachment 512717

Im embarking down the path of now getting my wifes bow ready for Africa.. we've decided to both take them across the water this year and sit in a blind for at least part of our trip..

Shes' sitting at about a 24" draw and right at 45# right now.. I'd guess she'll get up to about 50# before we head over (just starting the training routine now).. Im hoping to build her some arrows that will get north of 500 gr and a good FOC that fly well from her bow..

Seeing that Eland downed with a 52#, 27" makes me feel much more comfortable about her bow and the intended quarry (wildebeest, zebra, etc would be the biggest things potentially on the menu)..

 

[rookhawk]

Im embarking down the path of now getting my wifes bow ready for Africa.. we've decided to both take them across the water this year and sit in a blind for at least part of our trip..

Shes' sitting at about a 24" draw and right at 45# right now.. I'd guess she'll get up to about 50# before we head over (just starting the training routine now).. Im hoping to build her some arrows that will get north of 500 gr and a good FOC that fly well from her bow..

Seeing that Eland downed with a 52#, 27" makes me feel much more comfortable about her bow and the intended quarry (wildebeest, zebra, etc would be the biggest things potentially on the menu)..

Her setup is similar to one of my kids setups. My suggesting is find the cheapest/lightest grain per inch arrow you can find. Couple that with a heavy ethics archery insert/outsert for strength. Shoot feathers like razor vanes as they pass through easier. A narrow cut on contact iron will single bevel broadhead stropped razor sharp. It will go through anything. She will be just fine at 45lb draw as she is for everything kudu and smaller, full pass throughs.

 

[firehuntfish]

Seeing that Eland downed with a 52#, 27" makes me feel much more comfortable about her bow and the intended quarry (wildebeest, zebra, etc would be the biggest things potentially on the menu)..

Hi Mr. West,

The arrow she used to kill that eland was a Carbon Express Piledriver 250 (11gpi), with a 100gr brass insert, 100 grain Muzzy Trocar broadhead, Blazer vanes and a Nocturnal lighted nock with her total arrow weight coming in around 540gr. She has an FOC over 30% with that build. The eland was the largest animal she has shot to date with that arrow build. She also took her second largest, a kudu bull, and the arrow came 3/4 of the way out the opposite side.

I am very confident that your wife can expect good results with anything similar even at 45lbs of draw provided that the arrow is heavy enough and her broadhead is a compact or low profile design.

 

[FlyGuy]

Carbon Express Piledriver arrows are a great choice for African plains game.
While arrow weight is important for our game species, broadhead choice is THE most important. Leave the whitetail mechanicals at home and bring fixed blade broadheads. G5 Montec or Striker, Muzzy, Thunderhead, Slick Trick etc.
They all work well!
I see way too many videos on YouTube where guys shooting the latest equipment don’t get pass through on impala. At 70# with the right arrow and broadhead they should be retrieving the arrow 30 yards other side from where the animal was standing. On Zebra and Eland the arrow should be buried at least to the fletches.

 

[mdwest]

I think I’m finally settled on my set up for the hunt I’ve got scheduled for this July… I took my bow and the arrows I have built (602gr) to see my bow technician yesterday… we tweaked, tuned, etc… and I think the sticks are flying about as straight, consistent, and as fast as my bow can possibly push them… I’m at 67.5lbs and throwing a 602gr arrow right at 250fps…

Arrows are CE pile drivers (the originals.. no longer made..)… with 100gr brass inserts… topped with 125gr montec g5 broadheads.. FOC is only about 16…but I’m thinking 16 + 602gr + 250 fps…flying straight and true is plenty of power for anything I might take with a bow this year (no real targets in mind… I’m happy with whatever the bush provides… but I’m guessing we’re looking at impala, nyala, kudu, maybe wildebeest…)…

Hit the 20 yard line today for about 20 arrows… everything is inside a 2” group… so now I’ll start stretching it out a little and will do some shooting from the 30 next… (I don’t anticipate any shots past 30 from any of the blinds at Bos en Dal)…

Excited!

 

[SikaMDhunter]

Any insert or collar system?
Also if you expect 30 be prepared for 60. What's your sight ?

 

[mdwest]

There’s no 60 from any blind I’ve ever seen in either Limpopo or the NW Province… 15-20 honestly is probably the average shot… 30 is stretching things…

I’ve got 100gr brass inserts in the arrows… they not only added weight and brought FOC up.. I think they helped stabilize the arrow as well… we paper turned at 3’, 10’, and 10 yards yesterday… with only a tiny bit of tuning I was pretty amazed at how true the arrows were flying…

The sight is an HHA single pin…

 

[SikaMDhunter]

I get that the blinds aren't far but if your confident from 40/50 then you should be confident from 20. I find that foc helps stabilize flight and they fly true.

I've just got some 4mm set up with 16% foc, and 4 fletching. Gonna test against a standard arrow with similar foc to see what the flights like.