Are we still true trophy hunters?

[Bert the Turtle]

I think what a hunter wants changes with time. First trip to Africa and you never know if you will be back, you might want to take a nice representative mix of plains game, perhaps an animal a day. If it becomes a regular thing, you can focus more on the process and the experience and less on the result.

I also think about the other side, that is the PH needs to make a living. If I go and spend a week or two looking for the perfect kudu, that could be a great experience for me, but there isn't a lot of trophy fee in it for the landowner. If I've developed a relationship, I am less concerned about that.

The mount on the wall, to me, is the tangible item that reminds me of the story. The trophy is the story itself. I love nothing more than walking past an animal my wife took and telling her story (she's not much for telling the stories, rather likes to hear me tell them). Like Proust's madeleine, the mount transports me to a time and place in the past. When I look at the King Mackerel, I'm again on that last fishing trip with my father in Key West. The detail fade with the years, but the reminder is still there, the memory no less important.

 

[vgruan]

Hey guys,

This is an intresting post. I personally try to get every client I hunt with the best trophy and hunt possible in the time we have and as I said so many times before is that I believe a PH at heart that truly hunts for the love of the outdoors and sport of hunting will never have his client shoot an small or immature animal just for the money regardless the income from that specific animal.

You will find people that do that but in my opinion I will rather have the client go home without that specific trophy and have him come back the next year or so to hunt the same specie for a better trophy at reduced rates than to have him shoot a 45" kudu where I know it is not a good bull and that we are capable of shooting a 55" bull on our 20 000acre ranch!

I proud myself in the trophies my clients shoot and I am very proud to put them in an album and show them to hundreds of people at shows and conventions each year. And I also say that the memory of the experience hunting this animal has to accompany a great trophy. I believe that an unforgettable experience comes from self if you really love to hunt in a ethical manner. I hate to hear how some companies brag about how many clients they have pushed through their 1000ha ranch in a year.

Well every one has a different way of doing business but the commercilised hunting industry is not my cup of tea. I prefer providing a qaulity hunt above hunting 70 clients a year and losing personal touch!

Thank you Louis for bringing this up it has been on my mind for quite a while also...

Happy hunting in 2011

Best regards,

 

[LouisB]

Well thanks to all for posting it has been interesting.

There is a lot of truth to the fact that a trophy is in the eye of the beholder, and that the story behind to trophy is more important that it being a world record.

There is a fine balance to this I feel, trophy hunting should be conducted in a selective fashion but then again I feel the same way about taking off extra animals that have poor genes, as for culling well that is about numbers and usually we as land owners will look at taking off a high presenting of females.

This does not mean that there could not be a challenge behind it, but it is easier to hunt large numbers regardless of trophy size.

A very important point brought up was that our perspective changes over the years as hunters the more we achieve the less bothered we are with getting the biggest and the more we value just being out there hunting (as big 5 said we don’t need to kill to feel we accomplished something).

I have learnt this from an early age being fortunate enough to hunt on an regular basis, it is never about the killing but about the search for that one true challenge. Don’t get me wrong I have hunted for meat and there would be nothing wrong with it but it is not the same.

our 20 000acre ranch!

Jacques I have a lot of respect for people who stand up for what they believe in and at the same time who are honest and hard working, so please don’t see this as an attack but the question that was asked of me was how much land do you physically own, so to be fair here how much of that 20 000 acres do you physically own?

I proud myself in the trophies my clients shoot and I am very proud to put them in an album and show them to hundreds of people at shows and conventions each year. And I also say that the memory of the experience hunting this animal has to accompany a great trophy. I believe that an unforgettable experience comes from self if you really love to hunt in a ethical manner. I hate to hear how some companies brag about how many clients they have pushed through their 1000ha ranch in a year.

Jacques, this does say a big deal to me and I agree with you wholeheartedly you are clearly one PH and or Outfitter that takes great pride in your job!

Gentleman all I can say is that shooting 10 animals in 10 day’s does make hunting in South Africa look like a zoo this is not the case, but we are contributing our own downfall by supplying these kind of hunts, people will forever criticize our own clients for not hunting in large open area’s with no fences.

There can be no greater challenge than hunting an animal in its native habitat it also allows you to see their true habits as well as experiencing the landscape/terrain that comes with it.

Best Regards
Louis van Bergen

 

[vgruan]

Louis,

Thank you for the reply and I understand what you are saying. And I am very proud to say that our ranch is in fact a 8542ha which actually comes in to more than 20 000acres. We have no inside fences and offer 20+ species including the 4x kinds of springbuck, crocodiles etc. to clients without them having to leave our gate hunting any of these species.

I must also add that there is not a lot of other game farms in our area that is in the hunting industry so we are pretty much forced to have as many possible species on our ranch otherwise we have to drive 40min to an hour to hunt a for example a lechwe.

This is no zoo and it is very challenging hunting. But as you said South African outfitters will always be critisized for the fences...

Thank you and best regards,

 

[Bushbuck]

Louis,
Thank you for your honest reply. There are so many directions this thread could lead, and I feel they all have to do with the original question. I have the greatest respect and admiration for all the folks that own land in RSA and run a safari business. I feel they are attacked from all sides including there own, that is a topic we should also discuss.

As far as trophies, as was said I believe that changes over time. It is nice to see some think the actual hunt and who you hunt with as the ultimate trophy. That has always been my point when I speak of the adventure. Most of the problems and traps that people fall into regarding a trophy has been caused by us, the hunter and the outfitter.
I never liked the term "hunting career". That is of course unless you are a ph, product manufacturer, or celebrity etc, someone that makes a living off the hunting industry. There are actually people that call simply hunting for enjoyment for 30 years a career, I simply will never understand that.

Everywhere we look there are people talking about size, inches, number of animals. Trophy's on the wall, medals, marble based trophy's with a bronze plaque, trophies for getting a number of species, in how many countries, with a bow, gun, handgun, spear. Then the gun guys with a double and iron sights or a bolt action. Bow guys with a compound or a longbow. Crossbow, in a blind or stalking, on stand or in a truck, with or without bait. Free range or behind a fence, how many acres, with or without dogs, self guided hunt, with a guide, self tracked or the aid of others. It never ends.

The sad thing I see is someone coming back from a hunt that proudly post's about a trip. This may be something he saved for 10 years to go on, only to have the self proclaimed experts attack them. You know the kind, the biggest experts are the ones who have never even been to Africa, kind of like most animals rights people. The next are the experts that have been there once. Then the biggest attackers of the ranch hunts are the ones in the hunting industry that don't even own land!!

So a guy that gets a lion with a gun is told its no big deal because he didn't use a bow, and vise versa. Then its how many acres, what country, and god only help him if he used Mark Sullivan.

So many people have a different view of what a trophy is. That is ok. I celebrate all forms of hunting and defend all legal means. I have even defended Mark Sullivan on this forum yet I have never even fired a gunshot in Africa. Not yet anyway.

You know what I am talking about and everyone is guilty. If you have 5k acres its better than 400. 20,000 is better than 5000. Free range is even better. It never stops.

I am looking forward to having a good conversation around a fire with you on a future trip to Africa. Thanks for being honest. It is tough to answer some questions on a forum, but believe me it is not the regular posters that you are looking for, it is the guys that ad to the number of views on a thread and read your words and are important. Every outfitter that is afraid to post or answer questions and simply says "PM me for details" are the ones I don't trust.

 

[LouisB]

Hi Jacque

I totally agree with you 20 000 acres is a massive place I know of a hand full of land owners that have a game farm that size.

Here is the questions that was asked of me:

Hi Louis,

I would like to follow up on this a bit if you don't mind. How many Ha do you do your hunting on. I am specifically talking about property that you personally own, not other ranches that You may use.

So the questions here is how much of that 20 000 acres do you Jacques personally own?

I am just comparing apples with apples here, in an effort to give clients an idea of how very few people actually own games farms.

Thank you bushbuck you clearly know what you are talking about what is funny is our interpretation of wording and not facts but any way I simply rest my case here!

Best Regards
Louis van Bergen

 

[35bore]

The direction this thread has taken makes me want to make another post.

I cannot, and will not, speak for everyone here, but, in my opinion it does not matter whether its 10 ha or 100ha couldn't matter, or fenced or open range. I am hunting Africa for the first time this June with Koedoeberg, I don't care if it's fenced or not, I am going to have the oppourtunity to do something that not alot of people never get to do. I will see species that I have never seen, hunt in a place that millions seek and few find. I already know I will not want to leave, and i also know I will return. I have a loving wife and son that will accompany me on this journey. So again, with all my heart, you PH's in Africa should be praised and envyed for what you have, which is the most sought after wildlife of every true hunter. My point here is (for the American hunters) or even other hunters, the first time, as a child or adult, that you had the chance to harvest an animal you had never hunted before, would it have really mattered where, i.e. your unkles back yard or in the Rockie mountains. Most will respond NO it doesn't matter, the fact that you get to hunt a unique or an animal you have never hunted before is what you remember, not how many acres it was on. Thanks for letting me say my piece, Scott.

 

[Bushbuck]

Jacques,
20,000 acres is a very impressive farm. You have a nice website and I enjoyed looking at the video. The quality was nice enough to look at it full screen. Are all the animals listed on your site on your property?

Do you have black impala on your property? I saw a pic in the video and see you have it listed. I have always wanted to hunt them. Someone on here last week or so posted that you cannot import them back into the U.S. Is this the case? If so I was not aware of that and it would change my mind. I would also love to see more pictures of your property showing the different terrain if you have them available.
Thanks
Marc

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

You will find people that do that but in my opinion I will rather have the client go home without that specific trophy and have him come back the next year or so to hunt the same specie for a better trophy at reduced rates than to have him shoot a 45" kudu where I know it is not a good bull and that we are capable of shooting a 55" bull on our 20 000acre ranch!

Jacques,
We cant help it that our Kudu in the Cape is a different sub-species. You have hurt a lot of us Eastern Cape boys' feeling now...lol :worship:

Excellent topic...i'm enjoying this one

Best Regards
Marius Goosen
KMG Hunting Safaris

 

[hunting]

Maruis i took a 53 inch Cape Kudu last year with a client near PE last year , to me it was like taking a 80 pound Elephant.
Johan

 

[nsok]

...More than a 80 pounder. Is there a record for Eastern Cape Kudu known?

 

[LouisB]

Hi guys

35 Bore you kind of hit the nail right on its head here, I think that it is important that we do acknowledge that not every PH or Outfitter out there has a ranch some might manage it for owners there is absolutely nothing wrong with that it take a lot of hard work and dedication.

You will have a great time with Willem I spoke to him quite a few times and will be looking forward to hunting with him be it on his ranch or mine sometime in the near future good guy!

I doubt that we will ever get around this whole property size issue but in all honestly I think you have the correct mind set with regards to the whole situation.

Bush Buck you cannot import black impala in to the US as far as I know?

Marius don’t feel too bad at the end of the day each province has that something that makes it truly special for Limpopo/ North West it might be kudu for you guy’s it will defiantly be Cape Bush buck they sure are pretty!

Nsok not sure about the Cape kudu maybe Marius can help you there?

Best Regards
Louis van Bergen

 

[enysse]

Jacques,
20,000 acres is a very impressive farm. You have a nice website and I enjoyed looking at the video. The quality was nice enough to look at it full screen. Are all the animals listed on your site on your property?

Do you have black impala on your property? I saw a pic in the video and see you have it listed. I have always wanted to hunt them. Someone on here last week or so posted that you cannot import them back into the U.S. Is this the case? If so I was not aware of that and it would change my mind. I would also love to see more pictures of your property showing the different terrain if you have them available.
Thanks
Marc

I reported that topic...and I may be wrong...but as far as I know black impala are not importable....I have seen trophy fees of $6000 Plus for one.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Maruis i took a 53 inch Cape Kudu last year with a client near PE last year , to me it was like taking a 80 pound Elephant.
Johan

Johan, so did I. I'm sure you can remember that in the old days a 50" for the Eastern Cape was the magical number...and still is. These days they seem to be getting more and more, which I have no complaints about... I have had a couple of 52" + Bulls in recent times...but you know that an Eastern Cape Bull does not get 50" + from being stupid. If its your day, its your day.


Nsok, I speak under correction, but i'm 90 percent sure its 57.5 " . Taken in 2010 if i'm not mistaken...and that overtook the previous record of 57"+. I know of one of our local farmers here on an open fenced farm where I also hunt, took a 56.5" on his land. So our numbers are getting better.

Enysse, I cannot comment on the import scenario on the Back Impala. Truly one of the most beautiful animals that I have seen. I have forwarded some info to Marc. One of my friends has some on his land. Also an outfitter, and I know he swopped one for a buffalo, so that should give you a good indication on price.

Best Regards
Marius Goosen
KMG Hunting Safaris

 

[bwana ndege]

Hi Louis,
For me it is not all about the size, I'd rather take a lesser trophy that was taken on a proper hunt together with good friends.
In my trophy room its not the inches that count but the good memories.

 

[hunting]

Marius for sure you guys are getting bigger and bigger Kudu i can remember the 44 and 46 inch bulls fully mature and points forward. It is good to see big Cape Kudu walking the Spekboom. Keep up the good work on them kudu in the Eastern Cape.
Johan

 

[LouisB]

Hi bwana ndenge
I can certainly understand your point!

Once again it has been a really good discussion thanks to technology and great forum like AH it is possible to get immediate feedback.

It is important to share opinions and grow as individuals, fortunately hunting is a common interest we all share and despite our differences I think all of us are here to ensure that we never lose our rich hunting heritage.

Thank to all for their contribution to this topic!

Best Regards
Louis van Bergen

 

[vgruan]

Jacques,
We cant help it that our Kudu in the Cape is a different sub-species. You have hurt a lot of us Eastern Cape boys' feeling now...lol :worship:

Excellent topic...i'm enjoying this one

Best Regards
Marius Goosen
KMG Hunting Safaris

Hello Marius,

I am sorry I did not intend to hurt some feelings... ;-) I just meant that I will not have my client shoot a kudu while I know there is bigger bulls out there.

Happy hunting and good luck for this year.

Best regards,

 

[vgruan]

Jacques,
20,000 acres is a very impressive farm. You have a nice website and I enjoyed looking at the video. The quality was nice enough to look at it full screen. Are all the animals listed on your site on your property?

Do you have black impala on your property? I saw a pic in the video and see you have it listed. I have always wanted to hunt them. Someone on here last week or so posted that you cannot import them back into the U.S. Is this the case? If so I was not aware of that and it would change my mind. I would also love to see more pictures of your property showing the different terrain if you have them available.
Thanks
Marc

Hey Marc,

You can import a black impala to the US. It is exactly the same as a black springbuck, white or copper springbuck. Just more exspensive. We have black impala available and I will send you all the information. We were just busy at the Harrisburg show and let me tell you guys this is a long a@#ss show! lol

The one you are not able to import is BLACK FACED Impala as it is on the endangered species list. I had clients from the USA hunt black impala last year and we did not have any problems importing them. I will send you some pictures and pricing on them.

Thank you for the kind words on our operation we truly do our best to give clients the best possible service at the best rates...

Looking forward on talking to you.

Best regards,