Are premium bullets worth it?

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Yesterday was my wife's birthday. I took her to one of our favorite restaurants last night. To get there we drove in our Civic. Got into the car, and pushed the red start button and off we went. The car started when I hit the red button, so therefore the red button must be THE critical factor in the car working! Well no, the car had to have fuel. So the fuel must be THE critical factor for the car to work. No wait, this isn't a diesel, so there has to be a working ignition system for the car to work. So the ignition system must be THE critical factor............. There are multiple critical factors for a car to operate as intended.

There are multiple critical factors when using a rifle to be successful in killing game. Shot placement is ONE of those factors. No one would argue that if you shoot an animal thru the nose, bullet choice is irrelevant, the animal is going to run away and you will have failed to kill it.

So, as was done in the article in the original post, when the importance of shot placement is brought up while discussing premium / non-premium bullets, it's a red herring. The result being some readers will cling to this truth, but which isn't relevant to the writer's topic, as the only one of importance. I can't help but question the author's objectivity when this happens and believe he to be biased from the start.

If the end of the 19th / start of the 20th century was the golden age of safari and the development of hunting rifles, the 21st century is the golden age of bullets and I'd add gun powder. I have no doubt that those famous hunters of old would be quite grateful to have access to the powder and bullets we now enjoy.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Good points, Phil. I'd add that with the introduction of CNC machinery and computerized manufacturing and quality control, it's also the golden age of action and barrel making, ammunition loading machinery advancement, and other component manufacturing. One can take a $300 factory built gun off the rack, buy a box of match quality ammo and even with cheap glass, with a modicum of skill, consistently shoot one inch groups at a hundred yards. I don't remember that being the case for many of the years I've been shooting.

 

[Nyati]

Shot placement being the first critical factor, then you need penetration, with a bullet which expands, but does not disintegrate.

That´s when a premium bullet comes into play, Swift A-Frame, Federal Premium TBBC.

RWS TM for Roe Deer.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Are premium bullets worth it ? For plinking and Target practice , maybe not. But when you're hunting an animal , you OWE it to your quarry to kill it efficiently and quickly. It's basic Hunter's ethics. And this goes double for dangerous game , because moral issues aside , if you don't use good quality bullets that can efficiently take down the animal , you're basically running a risk of your quarry killing you or someone in your hunting party. Let me give an example of how important premium bullets are .
I read Harry Manners auto biography book " Kambaku " recently and in one of the chapters Harry shoots an elephant with a kynoch 300 grain round nosed solid from his .375 . Pre 1945 Kynoch .375 H&H loads were really souped up in terms of driving power due to a higher ( than current ) powder charge , but ( as AH forum Member IvW explained to me ) were also prone to deflection / mushrooming or disintegration ( especially in the round nosed solids ) . Well , it happened to Harry and the bullet disintegrated or broke . Harry's Gun bearer , Sayela ended up getting crushed to death by the wounded elephant.
This could happen to any of us who doesn't use the right bullets.
Yes , shot placement is vital . But using proper tools for the job is JUST AS vital. When l was a kid growing up , my very first gun ( with which l learnt how to shoot ) was an old Remington pump action Gallery rifle in .22 short ( l think it was a model 12 , but l can't be sure as it's been over twenty years since l last used it , but it held 15 rounds ) . I used to use that little rifle on racoons , rabbits , beavers , squirrel , pigeons , wood Chuck and the like. Then , one day l had to shoot some feral hogs with it . I was aiming straight for the head ; the gun was accurate as ever . But those damn things just weren't dying. I was shooting them and they were dropping to the ground and rising back up . By the time l finally killed 4 of them , l was out of bullets and l lost many wounded animals . Being a teenager at that time , l didn't think much about it , but l do regret it now whenever l think about it.

 

[Pheroze]

Some findings from the studies that are surprising:

"Lead bullets, in general, retained less weight when they struck bone (~71%) compared to soft tissue (~77%). Bonded bullets retained more weight on soft tissue than lead core bullets, but surprisingly, when they hit bone, their jackets separated from their core as often as lead core bullets. This finding upends the whole point of using pricier bonded bullets that supposedly come with a performance advantage. "

And the finding that copper bullets and lead create the same size wound channels is also odd.

I don't know how these studies can conflict with the collective experience here. I suspect the conclusions are based on an incomplete assessment of the actual findings. I agree that one obvious problem:

There is a huge difference in terminal effect, comparing an A-frame (or Scirocco, North Fork, Rhino, etc etc) shedding one or two petals, and having the bulk stay together and pass through an Eland humerus, ribs and vitals, versus a Hornady SST or V-max disintegrating into multiple fragments that fail to reach the vital organs.

 

[BenKK]

The thing I giggle about with premium bullets is the notion that X Premium Bullet is better than Y Premium Bullet, and especially the thinking that traditional Woodleigh bullets are no longer as effective or even no longer premium. I enjoy experimenting with a wide range of premium bullets and can attest to exceedingly rapid put-downs from all of them when placed right.

 

[DmacD]

I am in no way an expert, and have considerably less experience that most of the contributing members on this sight, so take this for what it may be worth, but to me a premium bullet for hunting is worth the premium. I spend considerably more money each year on a really nice bottle of single malt scotch (or two) for my week at the deer camp, and don't even bat an eye. The extra money I spend on good hunting bullets is the cheapest investment in a good thing that I make each year.

 

[Hogpatrol]

What I see at the ranges speaking with hunters is a fixation on velocity and energy coupled with bullets mismatched to the mission. An example would be a 300 WM shooting bullets designed for long range shooting and then used at close ranges, 50 to 100 yards. Opposite of that is a solid at long range. Having said that, I prefer a premium bullet that will put an animal down in its tracks. I'm too old and grumpy to follow blood trails.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Peter La Fleur : [after Patches hits Justin in the face with a wrench] Yeah, uh, Patches... are you sure that this is completely necessary?
Patches O'Houlihan : Necessary? Is it necessary for me to drink my own urine?
Peter La Fleur : Probably not.
Patches O'Houlihan : No, but I do it anyway because it's sterile and I like the taste.
Peter La Fleur : ...Okay

In short not necessary on small game but definitely necessary on dangerous game. I would not hunt dangerous game with anything less then a high quality, deep penetrating, premium bullet.

 

[Opposite Pole]

I’m still not sure what a premium bullet is. I believe in buying and using the very best you can and bullet that kills the animal is the cheapest bit of the hunt but what makes the bullet premium? Is TBBC a premium bullet? I had a 300grain .375 calibre one, in factory load fail to break cow buffalo’s shoulder from 50m on a straightforward, square shot. Bullet hit the shoulder and turned nearly 90 degrees and ended up in the guts. I know this cause I finished the animal 23 hours later. Didn’t like it. Is Sierra GMK premium? It’s soft to be sure. But I’m yet to see it fail to kill. However at short range and on a tougher built critter it does tend to fall apart. Below is a picture of a few of them taken out of several european boar shot at short ranges - 10-50m using factory loads at standard 308 velocities. All where one shot kills, all animals ran, none of them gave exit wounds. One was shot on fresh snow, ran off without leaving a drop of blood. I followed the tracks through some rather thick bushes, this is at night under the moonlight so somewhat stressful only to find it dead at the other end of the thicket some 50 meters from where it was shot. No blood to be seen, I gutted it and the lungs were completely liquefied, but the bullet hole had closed up and so left no blood trail. Core had separated from the jacket and the bullet bits were lodged on the inside of the rib cage on the offside. The pig was only about 80kg so no giant. I now use 375 for this kind of work as it drops them on the spot with great authority. I’ve shot Red, Fallow and Roe deer with the GMK with great success though.

 

[Hogpatrol]

@Opposite Pole , Interesting story about the boar with no blood trail. Some animals don't know they're dead but keep on going. From my own experience, the old dudes seem to give it up a lot quicker than the youngsters.

 

[bruce moulds]

having used both types of bullets, premium for hunting is a done deal. premium is it for bigger game.
Woodleigh comes under the heading of premium, but at the bottom of the heap.
only because in the case of say a 338 bullet out of a 338/378 at 50 yds, the friendship might be stretched.
if they do the job, that is all they have to do.
I will stick my neck out and state that they are a better bullet than the nosler partition for all but making a big gun into a smaller gun.
experience has shown that cup and core non bonded bullets are quite ok when used properly.
the problem is that they have a very narrow striking velocity for optimum terminal performance.
too fast and they destruct, and too slow the opposite.
this gives them about a 100 yd window, as velocity decreases as the bullet flies.
they also require specific target presentation.
in the old days, the problem was addressed by simply using a long bullet like the old 7x57 175 gn bullet.
it could just keep expanding and there was still plenty of bullet left.
one trouble with long small calibre bullets is that they can bend on impact like the 156ish gn 6.5mm bullets became known for.
having used billets like swift and barnes, it is obvious that bullets at this level are superior in terminal performance.
they expand fast, retain weight, and do not have to be overlong for calibre (high fineness ratio).
they also do this through a high range of striking velocities.
they also do it at higher velocities.
in fact, the higher the striking velocity, the more effective they are, smashing bone and penetrating better at angles.
which raises the point that they can also be used at less than optimum target presentation.
a point comes to mind that some demand full penetration of a bullet.
this can be a big ask on a big animal when busting a shoulder bone from an angle while trying to get the heart.
as long as it goes past the heart it has done its job.
but it has to get there.
bruce.

 

[Inline6]

I have played a different game for so long I don't know what everyone is talking about when they say "Premium".... if a bullet is not consistent and can not hold together why would anyone shoot it?

In my eyes it's really just that simple.

If anyone is honestly worried about cost of bullets.... they should consider when the draw down on a living creature. They are about to take its life and owe it the most honorable death possible. The cost of a round spent reads X but when you shoot at animal Y cost and draw blood and can't find it what does that cost?

You must be able to see the forest through the trees...

YMMV

 

[Newboomer]

Premium bullets are pretty cheap insurance. We spend exorbitant amounts of money on fine rifles, airfare, safaris, trophy fees, etc. Myself, I'm not about to run cheap lead through my rifles. I want that extra assurance that when I pull the trigger the projectile flying downrange is going to do the job first time every time if I do my part. And I want to live to tell the story.

 

[BenKK]

I think it’s getting pretty difficult to find a non-premium bullet for dangerous game cartridges. I can think of a couple still available. But most options seem pretty high-class to me.

Opposite Pole: I broke a 410 grain Woodleigh solid (.416 Rigby) clean in half on a young buffalo bull. Shoulder and spine. Dropped him. I still consider it to be premium, just that nothing works perfectly all the time.

Without exception, all the premium bullets I’ve used on buffalo in recent years (Woodleigh softs and solids, Hydros, CEB Safari Raptors, Barnes TSX) have all produced spectacular results and likewise have all had me wishing I had one of the others in particular circumstances. And in particular circumstances they’ve all achieved things better than the others would have. But, you pick your bullet, know what it can do, stroll out the gate and make it work.

 

[Shootist43]

Bruce Moulds, I use a 6.5 x 55 for Deer, Hogs and similar sized Plains Game. I have never been "fortunate" enough to recover a bullet. I normally use 140 Gr. Nosler Partitions but last year tried the 156 Gr. Norma Oryx on a 170 -180 Lb. White Tail. It too was a pass through. What size animal "bent" the 156 Gr. bullet you referred to. In response to the original topic of this thread I took Swift A Frames and or Barnes TSX to Africa for both of my safaris. Maybe I didn't need to, but I slept better knowing that if I did my job, the bullet would do theirs.

 

[Opposite Pole]

@Opposite Pole , Interesting story about the boar with no blood trail. Some animals don't know they're dead but keep on going. From my own experience, the old dudes seem to give it up a lot quicker than the youngsters.

Yeap, not a drop, started doubting myself.

I shot another one that went about 100kg. It was a high lung shot, too high for my liking, and my mate and I could not find blood. I shot it on the edge of a wheat field and follow up was not the easiest. I was positive I hit it but after a while my mate started having doubts. I insisted and we kept looking. We found blood eventually, a river of it, the animal we found a few meters further. For most of the distance it ran, maybe 50-60m not a drop. Looking for a potentially wounded pig in a wheat field with no blood trail is surprisingly hard! Once it bled it poured out of it. Our theory is the blood didn’t start coming until the lungs have filled all the way to the bullet hole. Again, inside they turned into liquid.

As for them not knowing they’re dead. My very first Red stag got shot through both lungs. Bullet went in and out between the ribs on both sides without breaking them. The animal looked around and went back to feeding, I’m sitting there thinking WTF!!! But few seconds later it stood up on its hind legs and fell backwards dead. Its lungs pretty much poured out through the mouth and nostrils.

 

[JPbowhunter]

Yeap, not a drop, started doubting myself.

I shot another one that went about 100kg. It was a high lung shot, too high for my liking, and my mate and I could not find blood. I shot it on the edge of a wheat field and follow up was not the easiest. I was positive I hit it but after a while my mate started having doubts. I insisted and we kept looking. We found blood eventually, a river of it, the animal we found a few meters further. For most of the distance it ran, maybe 50-60m not a drop. Looking for a potentially wounded pig in a wheat field with no blood trail is surprisingly hard! Once it bled it poured out of it. Our theory is the blood didn’t start coming until the lungs have filled all the way to the bullet hole. Again, inside they turned into liquid.

As for them not knowing they’re dead. My very first Red stag got shot through both lungs. Bullet went in and out between the ribs on both sides without breaking them. The animal looked around and went back to feeding, I’m sitting there thinking WTF!!! But few seconds later it stood up on its hind legs and fell backwards dead. Its lungs pretty much poured out through the mouth and nostrils.

View attachment 283694

What state is the red from? Interesting tops, nice stag.

 

[bruce moulds]

shootist43,
I have read about long 6.5mm bullets bending, and seen pictures of them in various publications and books.
they were from bigger animals rather than the size you mention.
here in oz, I have found bigger pigs to stop bullets quite will, compared to say fallow deer or goats.
in fact for these gamei have tended to use 120 gn sierras in 6.5x55 and 6.5/06, and even 264 win mag with good effect.
a 120 gn 6.5 has similar sectional density to 130 gn 270 and 140 gn 7mm, all good for smaller thin skinned game.
bruce.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Yeap, not a drop, started doubting myself.

I shot another one that went about 100kg. It was a high lung shot, too high for my liking, and my mate and I could not find blood. I shot it on the edge of a wheat field and follow up was not the easiest. I was positive I hit it but after a while my mate started having doubts. I insisted and we kept looking. We found blood eventually, a river of it, the animal we found a few meters further. For most of the distance it ran, maybe 50-60m not a drop. Looking for a potentially wounded pig in a wheat field with no blood trail is surprisingly hard! Once it bled it poured out of it. Our theory is the blood didn’t start coming until the lungs have filled all the way to the bullet hole. Again, inside they turned into liquid.

As for them not knowing they’re dead. My very first Red stag got shot through both lungs. Bullet went in and out between the ribs on both sides without breaking them. The animal looked around and went back to feeding, I’m sitting there thinking WTF!!! But few seconds later it stood up on its hind legs and fell backwards dead. Its lungs pretty much poured out through the mouth and nostrils.

View attachment 283694

That mirrors one of my early deer hunting experiences 15 or 16 years ago. Back then , I still didn't get my .375 H&H Magnum Winchester Model 70. My hunting Rifle back then was a Savage Model 99 in .22 Savage High Power . Back in those days , you could legally hunt a deer in Maine with a .22 centre fire ( Maybe you still can , l don't know ) . I took about 14 deer with the gun using neck shots . Once l tried a heart shot on a feeding white tail , but it just didn't flinch. I quickly took a second shot at it's neck which downed it. Certainly not a deer rifle. No !