Are machined copper monoliths the future of bullets?

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Welcome to the great forums.
Good luck and all the best.
Witold

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I have a question and comment about the following statement from your website:

"Solid Copper reloading bullet is officially recommended as the better option for double rifle applications. It is softer on the twin barrel structure and will yield a longer barrel life. Barrel separation which is quite common on double rifles is adversely affected by the prolonged use of brass bullets."

First the comment, I own and shoot double rifles and now have a fair amount of experience around them. I have never witnessed a barrel separation, nor anybody I personally know has had a barrel separate. That is not to say it does not happen, but to say it is "quite common" is a little disingenuous.

The question, is your statement on longer barrel life with the copper bullets based solely on the copper being softer than brass? Did you perform barrel strain tests on any calibers, especially with double rifles to prove this?

It seems that I have read strain tests that showed brass as being the best option. My opinion is that brass alloys can contain silicon which provides lubricity and could lower barrel strain.

Mike,

Do the CEB's have silicon in the brass? If so, that combine with the "bore rider" design I would think would lead to less pressure and thus barrel strain.

 

[Mike70560]

I am not sure if the CEB alloy contains silcon or not. The silicon "theory" is based on the use of brass in other industries. The barrel strain tests with same design copper and brass bullets were close, at times brass slightly better, at times copper slightly better. The writer felt the brass bullets were better in general.

Width and number of bands on which the bullet rides makes a huge difference also. Copper North Fork bullets performed very well in the strain tests.

I was really curious if Peregrine conducted testing and if they would share the results. That information is hard to come by and is very useful.

 

[Alliwyn]

Hi Mike

Thanks for the feedback. We manufacture copper and brass bullets for big bore rifles (Doubles) and both shoot very well. The idea is not to downplay brass as such and maybe we should change the wording a bit. Our volume of sales in brass is far less than the volume of sales in solid copper bullets. And the performance of the solid copper bullets is so good that our clients are very comfortable to back up with the copper bullets.

Following your observation we made inquiries with two rifle manufacturers. Both appear to have a neutral opinion regarding the solid copper and solid brass bullets.

PS: Johan Calitz also prefer our solid copper (VRG2 bullet) over any brass bullet.

Regards
Alliwyn

 

[Alliwyn]

I am not sure if the CEB alloy contains silcon or not. The silicon "theory" is based on the use of brass in other industries. The barrel strain tests with same design copper and brass bullets were close, at times brass slightly better, at times copper slightly better. The writer felt the brass bullets were better in general.

Width and number of bands on which the bullet rides makes a huge difference also. Copper North Fork bullets performed very well in the strain tests.

I was really curious if Peregrine conducted testing and if they would share the results. That information is hard to come by and is very useful.

Mike are you positive about the silicon? Lead is the preferred alloy for better lubrication and machinability. If I'm not mistaken the new lead free regulations allow for up to 1% lead in the alloy.

Unfortunately we do not have solid scientific information. I have done a lot of tests with various bullet diameters on smaller calibers and pressure variations are quite significant. Manufacturers do not use the same diameter bullets and that is most likely a huge contributing factor to potential problems.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@Alliwyn, may I suggest that you add a conversion table on the powders you list in your Reloading section, that gives the equivalent of your Sochem powders to the various powders available in the U.S. such as Hodgdon, Alliant, IMR? This would make things a bit easier for me as I do want to give your bullets a go in a few of my rifles.

 

[Mike70560]

Like I wrote the silicone is a theory. If bullet manufacturers are not using it this may be an avenue worth looking in to.

I believe if you would perform strain test using identical designs on copper and brass you may be very surprised at the results. Solid lead bullets would maybe even give you the biggest surprise.

Anyway, good luck with the bullets and the company. I believe the monolithics are great bullets in general.

I am anxious to see some terminal ballistic results in not too much longer.

 

[BRICKBURN]

..........
I am anxious to see some terminal ballistic results in not too much longer.

From the field I hope.

 

[Alliwyn]

@Alliwyn, may I suggest that you add a conversion table on the powders you list in your Reloading section, that gives the equivalent of your Sochem powders to the various powders available in the U.S. such as Hodgdon, Alliant, IMR? This would make things a bit easier for me as I do want to give your bullets a go in a few of my rifles.

Very glad to hear that. Please contact Hermann (he started this thread) for your bullet supply as single package shipping by DHL from South Africa is crazy expensive. Fortunately we have done the burn rate comparison already. Find it right at the bottom of the pull down menu under "Reload". The tab is called "Burnrate Chart".

 

[Alliwyn]

From the field I hope.

Please visit our FB page "Peregrine bullets" for testimonials. There are plenty testimonials on our two websites as well. www.peregrinebullets.com and www.peregrinebullets.co.za
If you are in South Africa you will most likely not be able to see both websites as we automatically reroute all South African visitors to the .co.za site

 

[Alliwyn]

Like I wrote the silicone is a theory. If bullet manufacturers are not using it this may be an avenue worth looking in to.

I believe if you would perform strain test using identical designs on copper and brass you may be very surprised at the results. Solid lead bullets would maybe even give you the biggest surprise.

Anyway, good luck with the bullets and the company. I believe the monolithics are great bullets in general.

I am anxious to see some terminal ballistic results in not too much longer.

Hi Mike
I did some research on internet and found one interesting article about alloying brass with silicone. According to this you are right about the benefits of silicone. It will improve the machinability to about 75% in comparison with lead. Unfortunately the article is not about friction properties of the silicon alloy, but I'm sure there may be a good correlation. See attached.

 

[petrusg]

I only load Peregrine Bullets across all my caliber's. Have a look here at some of our results to date: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/peregrine-vrg3-bushmaster-rsa-manufactured-bullet.23063/

 

[Mike70560]

Adriaan,

Very good looking results. Congratulations on the animals. I do like the monolithic bullets!!

Alliwyn,

Skimmed through the article. It is interesting. One other issue is hardness. Adding just 1% Silicon to lead free brass raises Brinell Hardness from around 100 to 150, which I would have to believe is about as hard as you would want to see in a bullet. I wonder with 1% Si and 1%Pb what machinability, lubricity, and hardness would be like?

 

[matt85]

i metioned it in another thread but i figure i should talk about it in this one as well.

on Sunday i managed to get out and try some Peregrine VRG2 .505" 600gr bullets in my 505 Gibbs. accuracy was surprisingly good using 121-122 grains of IMR 4350. i shot one of the best groups ive ever shot with this rifle which was basically a clover leaf at 50 yards using the 121gr load. i havent chronographed the loads (it was raining) so i cant say for sure on the velocity but if its at least 2050fps then it would be a suitable dangerous game load.

so the bullet appears to shoot well in my rifle, the next test will be to kill something with it. unfortunately i dont know exactly when ill make it for another large and/or dangerous game hunt due to other financial obligations. ill make a report on the bullet when ever i get around to shooting another critter.

-matt

 

[Petrus Geldenhuys]

I love the way the Monolithic's preform! i will never go back to lead core bullets.

 

[matt85]

my friend has a question, he shoots a 7mm Rem Mag and wants to know if the 150gr .284" VRG4 is suitable for Roosevelt elk? they are very big animals and tend to be very tough but he's looking to try a monometal bullet to replace his 175gr Noslar Partitions.

-matt

 

[JimP]

I have never heard of a VRG4 bullet, who manufactures them?

Most monometal bullets in the 150 grain range should be good for a elk, however not all are manufactured to the same standards.

Out of my 7mm Rem mag I have shot a few elk with the Barnes 140 grain X bullet with very good results.

 

[matt85]

VRG4 is one of the Peregrine bullets, its also called the Plainsmaster. its a longer range version of the Bushmaster (VRG3).

-matt

 

[High Desert Hunter]

As long as lead is legal, I will be sticking with it for the vast majority of my hunting and shooting. For very large and or dangerous thick skinned game I would be willing to pay the premium for a machined mono bullet, but for thin skinned game I have had excellent results with traditional cup and core as well as cast bullets.

 

[matt85]

i went to the range today and did a TON of shooting with the 505 Gibbs. i developed a pretty decent recoil headache for a bit and im pretty sure i lost a few childhood memories from my brain bouncing around in my skull but its fine because my childhood sucked any way.

the weather behaved itself (rare) and i was able to chronograph my loads and do some more accuracy testing. here are the chronograph results:

load 1: 600gr Peregrine VRG2 over 121gr of IMR 4350 chronographed at an average of 2250fps.
load 2: 600gr Peregrine VRG2 over 122gr of IMR 4350 chronographed at an average of 2290fps.
load 3: 525gr Barnes TSX over 120gr of IMR 4350 chronographed at an average of 2250fps.
load 4: 600gr gas checked hard cast bullets over 115gr IMR 7828 at an average of 1850fps.
load 5: 525gr Barnes TSX over 145gr of RL-25 chronographed at an average of 2300fps.
load 6: 525gr Barnes banded solid of 149.5gr of RL-25. (didnt chronograph cause i was just trying to match the previous TSX load)




the shot outside of the group with the 121gr load was the first shot and i had been shooting a bunch of lead cast loads so it might be outside of the group because of lead fouling (or i just pulled it). the three other hits you see on that target are from my friend trying out the Gibbs with some lead cast loads. the recoil proved to be a little too much for him so the shots were kinda wild but at least he kept it in the 6" bull.

-matt