Aoudad Trophy or Scurge WSF podcast

[Mtn_Infantry]

So introduce animals ( invasive) are still owned by the state and not the landowner?

I have zero issue with Aoudad Hunting or anyone who enjoys it, so long as it doesn’t come at the detriment of native species since they’re non native exotics.

The issue of management/ownership is the crux of the issue. Once on Private Property their control isn’t under the purview of TP&W (who’s making money off hunting them). Like hogs they’ve become a major money maker for Private Landowners and Outfitters but are prolifically breeding, destroying the habitat of native game populations and species like DBH Sheep, Mule Deer, Whitetail, and Pronghorn, while expanding their range daily. Each piece of land has a total carrying capacity and each exotic animal present reduces the number of native game animals that can inhabit that area. It’s the same way cattle and people impact game animals in Africa or other parts of the world.

If the private landowners want Aoudad for financial reasons, they’re welcome to fence their property in order to prevent the Aoudad from leaving or getting into areas with DBH Sheep and other native game animals habitat. The private land already have very limited pay to play access.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

That’s fine on public land
But if the non native is seen as livestock on private land no don’t mess with them unless the land owner wants them gone.
If the government starts messing with what livestock you can have that’s non native I can see problems with cattle and goats next

If the private landowner isn’t controlling the population or preventing them from expanding past the boundaries of their property it 100% becomes the governments responsibility to manage.

There are ordinances in most cities and states around the country dictating a maximum unit of livestock (by species) per piece of private land. Look up how many horses, cows, pigs or chickens you can have on your property by acre. Exceed that and the government can step in. Those laws don’t even account for the carrying capacity or the grazing production of your parcel they’re blindly established.

 

[Flbt]

If the private landowner isn’t controlling the population or preventing them from expanding past the boundaries of their property it 100% becomes the governments responsibility to manage.

There are ordinances in most cities and states around the country dictating a maximum unit of livestock (by species) per piece of private land. Look up how many horses, cows, pigs or chickens you can have on your property by acre. Exceed that and the government can step in. Those laws don’t even account for the carrying capacity or the grazing production of your parcel they’re blindly established.

Been farming fl and ga all my life have never been told of a max number of livestock per acre ever. And looking at chicken houses and feed lots I don’t think that many states limit per acer as long as there take care of

Here wild hogs become the property of the land owner. If I don’t want them killed on my land the government can’t come in and kill them.
But they can on public land.
And if the door is open to live stock vs native animal.
You will see animals rights nuts using that to do away with all livestock and possibly pets.
How many animals do outside cats kill every year?
That’s not a door you want to open

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Been farming fl and ga all my life have never been told of a max number of livestock per acre ever. And looking at chicken houses and feed lots I don’t think that many states limit per acer as long as there take care of

Here wild hogs become the property of the land owner. If I don’t want them killed on my land the government can’t come in and kill them.
But they can on public land.
And if the door is open to live stock vs native animal.
You will see animals rights nuts using that to do away with all livestock and possibly pets.
How many animals do outside cats kill every year?
That’s not a door you want to open

Commercial Feed Lots and Chicken Farms have a permit allowing a higher density. You’d need to look at your local statutes but there’s the protential for them to differentiate between residential, commercial and agriculturally zoned land. Again it’s typically based on locality. I can tell you where I live in Texas there are city/town ordinances.

In Texas part of the reason they keep Aoudad, RM Elk, Hogs, etc as exotics rather than game animals is because it allows the year round hunting of them without the need to establish hunting seasons.

 

[Flbt]

Commercial Feed Lots and Chicken Farms have a permit allowing a higher density. You’d need to look at your local statutes but there’s the protential for them to differentiate between residential, commercial and agriculturally zoned land. Again it’s typically based on locality. I can tell you where I live in Texas there are city/town ordinances.

In Texas part of the reason they keep Aoudad, RM Elk, Hogs, etc as exotics rather than game animals is because it allows the year round hunting of them without the need to establish hunting seasons.

With the amount of laws there could be. I just have never known of the to be in forced in farm land.
I think here you can either have live stock or not. With some city’s having permits for a few fowl or possibly goats for cleaning up lots.
But where the farm was there and the city grew around it were exempted for the city rules.

I might be mistaken but I don’t think tx has shootable heardvof audads walking big city street. Do they
We are talking farm and woodlands are we not?

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

With the amount of laws there could be. I just have never known of the to be in forced in farm land.
I think here you can either have live stock or not. With some city’s having permits for a few fowl or possibly goats for cleaning up lots.
But where the farm was there and the city grew around it were exempted for the city rules.

I might be mistaken but I don’t think tx has shootable heardvof audads walking big city street. Do they
We are talking farm and woodlands are we not?

The herds of Aoudad being discussed are in the Trans-pecos region (far west Texas). If you’re not familiar with the area, think El Paso east towards the mountains and South to Big Bend. That 100k estimate and suggestion of elimination is not in reference to Aoudad everywhere in Texas. They’re estimating just the herd in that Trans Pecos areas to be more than 100k animals. You’re talking large ranches (often spanning multiple towns/unincorporated communities or even counties). Based on the podcast you’re talking about roughly 70 total private land ranches, in and around several large areas of government owned land. Not all the DBH habitat is on private land.

There are huntable populations of free ranging Aoudad in several other regions of Texas. Aoudad wandering city streets, it’s likely happened, isn’t a common place.

Since you opened the door to it with your cat comment, the government already has methods in place to handle feral cats and dogs. Most towns or counties have a pound and/or shelter with an animal control department. Their responsibilities aren’t limited to public land, and they often extend beyond just cats and dogs to include some livestock

 

[Sabre]

Aoudad likely wouldn't be at the numbers they are if hunts for them were still cheap. People paying $6,000-$7,000+ for aoudad means that outfitters are going to price them that high. There will be less people hunting them. Less people will take 2-3 of them on a hunt and will just take one as well. All of this results in a lot more Aoudad in the environment.

I don't fault the outfitters. If someone says they will pay me $7,000 to shoot one pest animal off my property, then I am going to let them, and look for others who will pay the same. Way less work for me. But as long as clients are willing to pay $7,000 for an aoudad, the outfitters will keep charging it, and that cuts way down on the number of people that will go on that hunt.

 

[Flbt]

The herds of Aoudad being discussed are in the Trans-pecos region (far west Texas). If you’re not familiar with the area, think El Paso east towards the mountains and South to Big Bend. That 100k estimate and suggestion of elimination is not in reference to Aoudad everywhere in Texas. They’re estimating just the herd in that Trans Pecos areas to be more than 100k animals. You’re talking large ranches (often spanning multiple towns/unincorporated communities or even counties). Based on the podcast you’re talking about roughly 70 total private land ranches, in and around several large areas of government owned land. Not all the DBH habitat is on private land.

There are huntable populations of free ranging Aoudad in several other regions of Texas. Aoudad wandering city streets, it’s likely happened, isn’t a common place.

Since you opened the door to it with your cat comment, the government already has methods in place to handle feral cats and dogs. Most towns or counties have a pound and/or shelter with an animal control department. Their responsibilities aren’t limited to public land, and they often extend beyond just cats and dogs to include some livestock

Agreed they have policies for animals on public land and citys.
But I dont think there putting traps in your yard to catch your cat.
It might just be the different way states handle the feral animals. Hogs belong to the landowner. But they will catch them if there in a park or go into a neighborhood. ( put the traps in public assible areas)
But even if they want the hogs gone on your private property they want go after them.
I was thinking they wanted to go after all of the sheep. Public land city or on the middle of someone’s ranch.

City’s public land highway right of ways go for it.
On someone ranch or just private land that wants to keep them no.

 

[dchum]

a

Aoudad likely wouldn't be at the numbers they are if hunts for them were still cheap. People paying $6,000-$7,000+ for aoudad means that outfitters are going to price them that high. There will be less people hunting them. Less people will take 2-3 of them on a hunt and will just take one as well. All of this results in a lot more Aoudad in the environment.

I don't fault the outfitters. If someone says they will pay me $7,000 to shoot one pest animal off my property, then I am going to let them, and look for others who will pay the same. Way less work for me. But as long as clients are willing to pay $7,000 for an aoudad, the outfitters will keep charging it, and that cuts way down on the number of people that will go on that hunt.

Just a dumb statement

 

[Flbt]

a


Just a dumb statement

Why?
I have seen it with hogs . In the mid 00 there were a lot of places that cost 50$ per hog.
You had a lot of people hunting them and taking multiple. The bigger ranch stared 250$-350-500 per trophy hog less people hunted them and less took multiple.
And more people relocated hogs for hunting.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Agreed they have policies for animals on public land and citys.
But I dont think there putting traps in your yard to catch your cat.
It might just be the different way states handle the feral animals. Hogs belong to the landowner. But they will catch them if there in a park or go into a neighborhood. ( put the traps in public assible areas)
But even if they want the hogs gone on your private property they want go after them.
I was thinking they wanted to go after all of the sheep. Public land city or on the middle of someone’s ranch.

City’s public land highway right of ways go for it.
On someone ranch or just private land that wants to keep them no.

The major difference in your statement is “your cat”. As far as I know none of these ranches in question paid for the transplantation of the Aoudad in the Trans-Pecos region, and they’re only considered livestock when they cross onto their property due to how the laws are written. They’re a non-native wild animal, that crossed an imaginary line, that they didn’t know existed, while expanding their range due to how prolifically they breed. The closest similarities would be hogs and Nilgai, both of which the State of Texas has funded programs to hunt and trap them in order to curtail their population or the spread of their population in certain areas.

Nothing has been said about eliminating the free ranging populations on public or private land areas in the Panhandle, or Edwards Plateau.

We’re arguing semantics about how/why to protect a non-native species that is greatly reducing native game populations in the area as the non-native population further expands and destroys habit. The argument @Muskox makes regarding conservation of Texas Desert Bighorn Sheep, along with anyone else who’s not a Texas resident is akin to Europe trying to dictate to Botswana or other African countries how to handle their Elephant and game populations. The only difference in this case is his argument is based on wanting cheaper “sheep” hunt options and including Aoudad in them without considering he can go hunt a Rocky Mountain Bighorn in the Montana Unlimited areas cheaper than he can hunt an Aoudad (albeit with significantly reduced odds of success).

 

[Flbt]

The major difference in your statement is “your cat”. As far as I know none of these ranches in question paid for the transplantation of the Aoudad in the Trans-Pecos region, and they’re only considered livestock when they cross onto their property due to how the laws are written. They’re a non-native wild animal, that crossed an imaginary line, that they didn’t know existed, while expanding their range due to how prolifically they breed. The closest similarities would be hogs and Nilgai, both of which the State of Texas has funded programs to hunt and trap them in order to curtail their population or the spread of their population in certain areas.

Nothing has been said about eliminating the free ranging populations on public or private land areas in the Panhandle, or Edwards Plateau.

We’re arguing semantics about how/why to protect a non-native species that is greatly reducing native game populations in the area as the non-native population further expands and destroys habit. The argument @Muskox makes regarding conservation of Texas Desert Bighorn Sheep, along with anyone else who’s not a Texas resident is akin to Europe trying to dictate to Botswana or other African countries how to handle their Elephant and game populations. The only difference in this case is his argument is based on wanting cheaper “sheep” hunt options and including Aoudad in them without considering he can go hunt a Rocky Mountain Bighorn in the Montana Unlimited areas cheaper than he can hunt an Aoudad (albeit with significantly reduced odds of success).

I don’t really care about cheap sheep hunts.
I am worried about the government doing away with what is livestock when it’s on your land.
Because livestock in this case is bad for native animals.
I can see that argument being used to take out cattle ect. Later on by animals rights nuts and using it as a precedent.

Like hogs in fl yes the state control them on state land and will help you some of you ask
But they don’t try and eliminate them on your land if you don’t ask for help.

I am completely fine with them taking the sheep out on public land or if a ranch ask for it.
But the ones that don’t the animals should be left alone if the property owners so wish.
As long as it’s like that I don’t care
It’s more of a property right issue with me

 

[Russ16]

I don’t really care about cheap sheep hunts.
I am worried about the government doing away with what is livestock when it’s on your land.
Because livestock in this case is bad for native animals.
I can see that argument being used to take out cattle ect. Later on by animals rights nuts and using it as a precedent.

Like hogs in fl yes the state control them on state land and will help you some of you ask
But they don’t try and eliminate them on your land if you don’t ask for help.

I am completely fine with them taking the sheep out on public land or if a ranch ask for it.
But the ones that don’t the animals should be left alone if the property owners so wish.
As long as it’s like that I don’t care
It’s more of a property right issue with me

Your property rights are not unlimited. If your livestock are carrying a disease that threatens a public resource there comes a point where the state does have a role. The state can already order diseased livestock destroyed if they are carrying diseases that threaten other livestock or public safety. Just as they can destroy a rabid dog.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I don’t really care about cheap sheep hunts.
I am worried about the government doing away with what is livestock when it’s on your land.
Because livestock in this case is bad for native animals.
I can see that argument being used to take out cattle ect. Later on by animals rights nuts and using it as a precedent.

Like hogs in fl yes the state control them on state land and will help you some of you ask
But they don’t try and eliminate them on your land if you don’t ask for help.

I am completely fine with them taking the sheep out on public land or if a ranch ask for it.
But the ones that don’t the animals should be left alone if the property owners so wish.
As long as it’s like that I don’t care
It’s more of a property right issue with me

I completely understand your worry about government overreach in terms of property rights and landownership.

The differences here are cattle, horses, and domestic pigs don’t have hunting seasons like Aoudad do and in some states aren’t classified as game animals. The distinction of them being livestock is a unique issue to Texas and mainly based around high fencing (these ranches aren’t).

In all cases of livestock it’s a landowner’s responsibility to keep them within their property. Additionally the government has an obligation to step in when it comes to disease regardless if it’s domestic pets, livestock, or wild game.

 

[Flbt]

Your property rights are not unlimited. If your livestock are carrying a disease that threatens a public resource there comes a point where the state does have a role. The state can already order diseased livestock destroyed if they are carrying diseases that threaten other livestock or public safety. Just as they can destroy a rabid dog.

Agree
But that’s not re introduced animals
And that seems to be what they are wanting to do kill livestock and re introduced animals.
But the big problem is are the big horn immune to ticks and screw worms?
I don’t think so. So you’re changing out on livestock for a wild animal that can carry the exact same thing

 

[Flbt]

I completely understand your worry about government overreach in terms of property rights and landownership.

The differences here are cattle, horses, and domestic pigs don’t have hunting seasons like Aoudad do and in some states aren’t classified as game animals. The distinction of them being livestock is a unique issue to Texas and mainly based around high fencing (these ranches aren’t).

In all cases of livestock it’s a landowner’s responsibility to keep them within their property. Additionally the government has an obligation to step in when it comes to disease regardless if it’s domestic pets, livestock, or wild game.

I think it’s like our hogs here. If there on private land there livestock if on publicly land there a game animal.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I think it’s like our hogs here. If there on private land there livestock if on publicly land there a game animal.

They’re still a wild animal and never become domesticated livestock. You’re looking at it based on your states laws and how your state keeps hunting open year round on hogs as a management tool.

Texas is significantly more complicated than other states in their livestock/game laws given the number of exotics. They’ve also already demonstrated the state can legally step in and hunt exotic non native species (Nilgai) and poison/hunt hogs including on Private Land. One unique thing many people don’t know is that if an exotic, or game animal (ex whitetail) escapes from a high fence where they’re considered livestock and crosses into another parcel of private land or public land they’re still considered livestock and can’t “legally” be hunted/shot. They technically bare the same legal protections as when my neighbors cows get into my yard. The Aoudad in the trans-pecos region aren’t the same. They’re a free ranging wild herd and once they cross a property line they’re fair game to blast away.

The crux of this issue has nothing to do with landowner rights, and in this case is a technicality. This issue is entirely based around the conservation of native flora and fauna as opposed to a non-native, exotic species of which supply and demand and a reduction in hunting opportunities has financially incentivized landowners and outfitters to prioritize them over the native species. The state of Texas can very easily classify them as a game animal (I’d add, when outside a high fence so they can still be hunted year round inside). I’d need to look at a couple of different statutes, but I suspect it’s a department/commission decision that wouldn’t require a public vote to do so.

 

[Russ16]

They’re still a wild animal and never become domesticated livestock. You’re looking at it based on your states laws and how your state keeps hunting open year round on hogs as a management tool.

Texas is significantly more complicated than other states in their livestock/game laws given the number of exotics. They’ve also already demonstrated the state can legally step in and hunt exotic non native species (Nilgai) and poison/hunt hogs including on Private Land. One unique thing many people don’t know is that if an exotic, or game animal (ex whitetail) escapes from a high fence where they’re considered livestock and crosses into another parcel of private land or public land they’re still considered livestock and can’t “legally” be hunted/shot. They technically bare the same legal protections as when my neighbors cows get into my yard. The Aoudad in the trans-pecos region aren’t the same. They’re a free ranging wild herd and once they cross a property line they’re fair game to blast away.

The crux of this issue has nothing to do with landowner rights, and in this case is a technicality. This issue is entirely based around the conservation of native flora and fauna as opposed to a non-native, exotic species of which supply and demand and a reduction in hunting opportunities has financially incentivized landowners and outfitters to prioritize them over the native species. The state of Texas can very easily classify them as a game animal (I’d add, when outside a high fence so they can still be hunted year round inside). I’d need to look at a couple of different statutes, but I suspect it’s a department/commission decision that wouldn’t require a public vote to do so.

And I believe if they classified them as a game animal they could choose to set either liberal or conservative seasons and bag limits depending on the management priority. That couple include very long seasons, potentially nearly year round.

 

[wesheltonj]

. . . The state of Texas can very easily classify them as a game animal (I’d add, when outside a high fence so they can still be hunted year round inside). I’d need to look at a couple of different statutes, but I suspect it’s a department/commission decision that wouldn’t require a public vote to do so.

Unfortunately, that's not the case. The Texas Legislature would have to pass a bill and be signed by the Governor. RMEF has been trying for years to get RM Elk reclassified as a game animal and lobbyist keeps killing the bill. Their position is they are non-native and their member should be able to do whatever they please and not be subject to TPWD.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Unfortunately, that's not the case. The Texas Legislature would have to pass a bill and be signed by the Governor. RMEF has been trying for years to get RM Elk reclassified as a game animal and lobbyist keeps killing the bill. Their position is they are non-native and their member should be able to do whatever they please and not be subject to TPWD.

I could be wrong, but I think there’s a difference in the elk and the aoudad and what’s required because of elk being named as a once native species. As you know elk once used to once be native to Texas. I think the distinction the lobbyists make is based on subspecies of elk and I’d bet that the word specifies a specific subspecies which is why the elk would need to be called as a bill, voted on and signed by the Governor.