Any Problems with "Heym"?

[Kevin Peacocke]

Better than a new Purdy or Holland & Holland? I too think a Heym is a fine rifle, but lets not get too carried away.
l

Better than a new Purdy or Holland & Holland? I too think a Heym is a fine rifle, but lets not get too carried away.

A micron is a micron, whether you arrive at it through the ultra skilled hand of a master craftsman of a precision set machine. I grant you, human skill is to be admired greatly, but net result, like the machined item is the precion execution of a design. No engineer can argue that the turning moment about a pivot is less the further away the pivot is - my point about the long water table. The 89b has a longer water table than either the Purdey or the Holland. And nobody can argue that adding a Greener cross bolt isn't stronger than an A&D lock up alone. The Heym 89b as you know has it.
And I really like the lines and the balance, feel is feel, blindfolded I would choose the 89b over the others.
With regards to surface finish of course the Purdey, Holland and Holland, Westley Richards and Rigby rising bite are in front, but it doesnt diminish the mechanical superiority of the Heym design.
So yes, honestly Joe, I would rather have the Heym. It may sound like an obsession, but I like to think it is an objective analysis. The thing is tops itrespective of price.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Have there ever been any straight comparisons/reviews between a Holland&Holland, a Purdey, a Westley Richard’s, and a Krieghoff and Heym?

I could imagine something like the car industry. Where an Aston Martin, a Ferrari and such sports cars, are the more desirable cars, the more expensive ones , with the longest history, but when looking for a sports car, you are better of getting a German Porsche as the quality all over will be much higher. Resale value will be better, reliability will be higher.

Just an idea in my head this morning.

V.

Couldn't agree more VBE. I toured the Aston Martin factory, it is impressive workmanship, but I would still take a Porsche because of it's soundness.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I absolutely assure you that the PH to whom I referred is very well experienced with all sort of rifles, including doubles of various manufacture. He’s been hunting dangerous game professionally for 31 years. And, the fellow who does all the work on his guns is a bit unusual in Africa as he’s not only a vastly experienced PH himself, he’s also a very skilled gunsmith. He definitely not a shade tree gunsmith.

Let's presume that the PH did not fat finger the second trigger.

What did the highly skilled gunsmith determine, after a detailed disassembly and inspection for the triggers, sears, hammers, springs and other action parts.
- Did they discover dirt or other foreign objects in the action?
- Any rust from not being cleaned and oiled after too many safaris?
- Any parts worn to the point that may in the right conditions cause a double firing?

If none of the above potential faults were found, I think it wise to consider that Heyms are designed with Intercepting Sears. This is an excerpt from the Heym 88B Catalogue:

"INTERCEPTING SEARS
The internal hammer on a modern boxlock or sidelock is held in its “cocked” position by a primary sear. This primary sear is released when the trigger is pulled and the sear allows the hammer to strike the firing pin. It is possible that when a cocked firearm is dropped or sharply jarred, a single sear could jump out of its notch and the hammer could fall, firing the gun accidentally. In this event, an intercepting sear would engage before the hammer could fall completely, preventing an accidental discharge. On a gun with intercepting sears, only by pulling the trigger are both sears moved out of the way simultaneously, allowing the gun to fire. Aside from the obvious safety benefits, intercepting sears also provide for much better trigger pulls than a rifle without them."

The above can be found in a download from clicking "button" for "88B Catalogue Download (PDF)" at this URL: https://www.heymusa.com/rifles/88b.html

Anything is possible but one unconfirmed example of a failure should not be the cause of judging that all like items are faulty.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

That reminds me of long ago...
Long ago my Marine Corps enlisted Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) was Aviation Fire Control (tracking, bomb dropping radar) technician. During a tour in research and development, my section head was an F-4 pilot. LtCol "Blitz" was a Top Gun graduate and generally "Sierra Hotel". Anyway, he who would often lament, "If I only could have only had a "sharp" Radar Tech in my back seat when my plane's radar would fail. After landing, the avionics techs would read my grip sheet and investigate the failed radar. They would always tell me there was nothing wrong with the radar." Those F-4 radars works as designed in the avionics shop and when the plane was sitting on the flight line. Trouble was when Blitz was pulling few G's in a turn trying to get a missile lock, his F-4 radars would repeatedly not operate as designed.

Replicating field conditions to induce a failure is hard. Very hard in many cases. It takes time to eliminate the variables one at a time to finally find which of those can repeatedly induce a failure. In field use, only continued use will identify multiple instances of the same failure. The US Military uses a Quality Deficiency Report process to collect field reports of, and examine failures on its equipment. When multiple QDRs indicate a problem the subject item is investigated for design flaws and operational errors.

In the case of the Heym, the problem statement would be,
was the doubling caused my operator error, i.e. touching the second trigger during recoil,
was it wear or dirt in the action,
or was it a design flaw that needs to be corrected?
Often the problems found via QDRs are incorrect operation of equipment. Or, sometimes, operational procedures are modified so that the equipment functions as designed and required, but does not fail.

If there were many doubling problems in Heym 88's, after 45 or so years of field use, would Heym have corrected it prior to fielding the 89B?

 

[machinistbutler]

I think any manufacturer can have problems , it's how they handle them that should set them apart.

I have seen pictures of an older Heym action split in two. It may have been the only one, but it has happened.

 

[SStomcat]

I think any manufacturer can have problems , it's how they handle them that should set them apart.

I have seen pictures of an older Heym action split in two. It may have been the only one, but it has happened.

Yes I saw that too, its somewhere here in the forum with pictures. Heym is aware of it so they may have rectified the issue. Seemed to be a 88 B model.

I researched extensively via this forum and talking to different people, and personally checking out a 300K plus Purdey rifle, Holland and Holland and Rigby's all in the hundreds of $$. I also checked a used Heym in 88B but finally settled on a 470 Krieghoff and I'm happy I did.

I found the Purdey,H&H exceptional in all respects specially fit and finish, with all the bells and whistles etc. I did not of course test them but they looked in a league of its own. Will I pay that price? definitely not, they are not for me of to be taken to Africa, more like a piece of art hanging on a wall type of thing. Of course this is relative, I'm sure in the eyes of a connoisseur this may be worth the price.IMHO.

Heym- This was in the 500 caliber, nice fit and finish, with some (little hand graving), greener cross bolt etc. I checked inside out and did not find anything earth shattering in a side by side comparison compared to the Krieghoff. The reality was while talking to Chris I was told that I need to wait a good 6-8 months if I want one that has in the works or 12-18 months for A NEW ONE..
The new 89 B was almost 9 to 10K more than my new Krieghoff and I just could not justify the price difference whatever it may be.

I'm very happy with my Krieghoff as my first DB, nice fit and finish, inside and out, excellent wood, well regulated and most important fits me very well.

I kept the 10 K towards my upcoming Safari trip....

 

[TEAM BERETTA]

One that fell to the 89B late this afternoon

 

[degoins]

Cograts on that fine bull and that beautifle rifle!!!

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Well done, fabulous bull. Confirm that this was the 470?

 

[TEAM BERETTA]

Hi Keven.
My trusted 416 Rigby.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Personally know of a brand new Heym in 500 N.E that double discharged, brand new out of the box after the hunter used the rear trigger first.
A lot of finger pointing between Heym and store that sold the rifle. Heym offered to "repair" the rifle once their gunsmith visited the country for one of the local outdoor shows. First of all, I would not accept a repair in this case.
I can find out, but don' think that the issue has been resolved, and this happened about 3-4 years ago.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Personally know of a brand new Heym in 500 N.E that double discharged, brand new out of the box after the hunter used the rear trigger first.
A lot of finger pointing between Heym and store that sold the rifle. Heym offered to "repair" the rifle once their gunsmith visited the country for one of the local outdoor shows. First of all, I would not accept a repair in this case.
I can find out, but don' think that the issue has been resolved, and this happened about 3-4 years ago.

I would be curious to know more.

 

[Foxi]

This can happen with any manufacturer of a double rifle.
It's nonsense to pin it on one manufacturer.
No matter who it is.
A technical error, lack of care, age and wear of the sear and the catching rod - there are countless factors.
Even a gun needs to be serviced every now and then, as Ivan Cater finally did with his worn-out Heym .450.
Anyone who has been building double barreled rifles for over 100 years usually knows what they are doing,but,there can be also monday production.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

I would be curious to know more.

Let me see what the latest is on the story and if its been resolved. Will report back, Lon.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

I would be curious to know more.

Lon, as far as I understand, Heym replaced the stock that broke during the incident. Not sure about whether anything else has been done. There was obviously an issue that caused the double discharge to happen.

Saying this, if I had the chance to find a Heym that fits me as well as my Merkel, I would be hard pressed not to make the swap. There is no doubt that the finishing on a Heym is more refined, and the swap would be for pure cosmetic reasons, but it would need to fit me as well as my current double, otherwise no deal.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Thank you for the follow up. In Zimbabwe we have the damned arms embargo which makes it almost impossible to send a firearm for warranty repairs to Europe or the U.S. and then be able to have it returned to Zimbabwe.

 

[Pondoro]

This thread makes me wonder about the quality of certain modern double rifles....I have and shoot a .475 of WW1 vintage and a 450/400 3 1/4 of 1906 vintage...never a double discharge no matter wich trigger I use first..?

Also shoot a Gaucher in 9,3x74R...no problems..

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

...never a double discharge no matter wich trigger I use first..?

That's how its supposed to work....
On Buffalo, I will usually start out with a soft in the right barrel(front trigger) and a solid in the left(rear trigger). Rear trigger for going away shots if asked to assist.
For situations where I'm expecting a front on confrontation, softs in both barrels.

 

[Foxi]

"Better than a new Purdy or Holland & Holland?"

What is guaranteed to be better about these weapons is the snob appeal.
No wonder, if you can add a zero to the selling price.
Unfortunately I am not at home in oil sheikh circles, then I would certainly have one too.

 

[SStomcat]

That's how its supposed to work....
On Buffalo, I will usually start out with a soft in the right barrel(front trigger) and a solid in the left(rear trigger). Rear trigger for going away shots if asked to assist.
For situations where I'm expecting a front on confrontation, softs in both barrels.

This is exactly what a very experienced African Hunter told me at the place aI got my rifle. He has been to Africa twenty plus times with double digit elephants and buffaloes under his belt.