Any fly fishing recommendations for chasing King Salmon in Alaska?

[Ryan]

Thank you for the detailed report (General Miles )
On our television they brought a scientist from Alaska who said that due to global warming and the 1.5-2 degrees Celsius warmer sea and thus a correspondingly higher food supply, the salmon stocks are increasing in the upper reaches (I forget where).
Do you know anything about this?
Greetings from Munich
Foxi

Red (sockeye) and in some cases pink salmon stocks have increased, the rest have not. King (chinook) salmon has decreased enough that some areas have been shut down for fishing. I have heard rumors it might be listed as am endangered species in certain systems. Over the 30+ years I have fished Southcentral Alaska I have seen king, silver, and chum salmon numbers drop substantially. Why? Multiple reasons we could go round and round about, but it's happening. Warming benefits one species but hurts another. Look at Bering sea crab numbers for another sign of that. Big crash in population there. Changes in winter weather patterns is playing havoc on some of the caribou herds too.

 

[lawrence_court]

Thank you very much, all! This is hugely helpful and very much appreciated.

What is the benefit of silvers over kings, fellas? I would rather have a few pulls a day for bigger fish than catch high numbers of smaller fish. But that's just me. Would love to know what I'm missing on this one.

Thanks for the tackle advice! For atlantics, I use 15 and 16 ft 11wt spey rods and 8 and 9 weight single handers. From what you say, I'd stick with the double handers for this trip.

Regarding species loss, we have seen an apocalyptic decline in Atlantic salmon in all the places I fish. It's a huge topic, and there are many factors, but the one thing that is the same across all the regional differences where atlantics live is that the fish go to sea. And they are all declining in a fairly even way. Which would suggest that damage at sea is what's harming them and not primarily the problems in local areas/waters. I don't know a lot about the pacific salmon, but I bet sea mortality is a huge factor. Probably illegal vessels or by catch from legal vessels. What a damn shame. Once these fish are gone, they are basically gone....

 

[Scott CWO]

Kings run from late May until late July. During mid-July to mid-August, it's the pink and sockeye salmon's turn. July and August for chum salmon. Late July to October rounds out the spawn with silver (coho) salmon.

Silvers are probably the strongest runs and are good-sized fish, albeit smaller than Kings. Silvers and sockeye fight good. Chum salmon are fairly easy to catch but don’t fight as good.

Now that Kings have diminished, it seems that silver salmon fishing has become a bigger event.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Silvers, rainbows and ptarmigan in September. It is my favorite time of year in Alaska! We had some fine days in a super cub on floats; rods, shotguns and limitless places to explore!

Yes, and the bears in salmon country are usually more lethargic in September. Lots to eat and metabolism cranking down for hibernation. They are not interested in much except eating and napping.

However, where I worked at Brooks Camp I found the silvers were quite out of gas by the time they arrived. Same fish would tear up my outfit at King Salmon. Sockeye were still very frisky at Brooks, even the reds. Fresh ones were always a handful. Foul hook one of those and you better get your arms in the air and give it all to get its tail out if the water or it'll be gone in a flash. The further it gets, the more unlikely you'll save the fly ... or your fly line. As the hypotinuse increases, the angle decreases, and as the angle decreases, the power your rod exerts on the fish decreases, especially if it's hooked someplace besides the head. And it doesn't take a wizard to determine when the salmon is foul hooked. You'll know instantly. Govern yourself accordingly.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You're better off fishing for silvers. They typically fight hard if they're fresh. And you'll keep them on longer. In a river you'll have almost no hope of pulling in a 25 lb king with fly gear unless you can chase it in a jet boat. What's the fun in that? You can fish for silvers with gear that's not going to wear you out in an hour. Personally. I learned a long time ago that bigger is not always better. In fact, it rarely is. Catching sockeye till my arms fall off is much more fun than flogging the water for hours or days in hopes of hooking up with a big fish I probably will only have on momentarily anyway. And they're headed towards extinction so why not leave the ones that made it into the river alone to have the best chance of spawning? Except for that rose colored hen, I never purposely fished for any of the kings I hooked. My flies were too precious.

 

[fourfive8]

Been a long time since pursuing them. Last few times fishing around them have purposefully avoided them… if I could see them. In AK, my preferences are rainbows, char or fresh run sockeyes on a fly rod in rivers/streams. For kings, best fly tackle depends on the river. In some, like the Klutina, using fly gear becomes impractical or even silly. I’ve had kings break 100 lb braided line using either level wind or spin gear on downstream runs in the Klutina. Really, what’s the point trying that with fly gear? As has been suggested, parts of the Naknek is the type of water where kings on fly gear may be practical. Adjacent to the Naknek, the Nushagak, is certainly friendly to pursuing kings with fly gear because of the big, open type water. Then you have to consider the cost for any of the lodges/ guided fishing which has rocketed to nose bleed levels the last few years. I refuse to pay 12-14k for 6 days of baby sitting. Another consideration is how fresh you want the fish after they come out of salt water. That varies of course depending on how far inland and how long they’ve been in the freshwater system. Hard to say if even expensive fly out can get you to “secret” fresh run king water???

“Flossing” a sea-lice-fresh sockeye on a 7 weight is hard to beat. Similar to hooking a 30+ Inch silver colored rainbow on fly gear, especially those freshly migrated out of a big lake.

 

[Ryan]

Thank you very much, all! This is hugely helpful and very much appreciated.

What is the benefit of silvers over kings, fellas? I would rather have a few pulls a day for bigger fish than catch high numbers of smaller fish. But that's just me. Would love to know what I'm missing on this one.

Thanks for the tackle advice! For atlantics, I use 15 and 16 ft 11wt spey rods and 8 and 9 weight single handers. From what you say, I'd stick with the double handers for this trip.

Regarding species loss, we have seen an apocalyptic decline in Atlantic salmon in all the places I fish. It's a huge topic, and there are many factors, but the one thing that is the same across all the regional differences where atlantics live is that the fish go to sea. And they are all declining in a fairly even way. Which would suggest that damage at sea is what's harming them and not primarily the problems in local areas/waters. I don't know a lot about the pacific salmon, but I bet sea mortality is a huge factor. Probably illegal vessels or by catch from legal vessels. What a damn shame. Once these fish are gone, they are basically gone....

Silvers average 5-15 pounds depending on the watershed, record book is in the 20s as I recall. Kings more like 15-30 average in most waters, big is over 35 and record book in most places is over 50, except the Kenai river, which used to be notorious for 40-60 pound fish and a record of almost 100. Lately it's been struggling. Well, everywhere is struggling. I really wanted to get out to the Nushagek river, which is known for fly fishing for kings. But the state actually had an Emergency Order shutting fishing down in mid July last year. So even way out there things are hurting.

 

[Velo Dog]

Foxi,

Greetings from Anchorage.

The reasons for declining fish and other sea animals, such as crab, sea lions and many others remains unanswered.
Here and around the world this topic has been argued without finding any answers.

I will guess that when the earth warms up (as it sometimes does, according to the fossil record), many more life forms / species flourish than ones that perish.
When the earth cools, many species die.
The fossil record is very clear and simple on this.
I do not know if the earth is warming now or not, because here in Alaska it is colder than a dictator’s heart.
However I suspect that it is warming, because the local glaciers are melting.

Now before everyone starts shrieking and running for cover, don’t panic because again, according to the fossil record, this is the normal Yin and Yang of our planet.
At the moment and thankfully, it looks like we’re in a Yang phase. (warming)
I am one more Alaskan who says, “Hurry up Global Warming, we’re freezing here.”
The bawl babies can save their hand wringing and uncontrollable weeping for when we get stuck in a Yin phase (ice age).
That’s when many species starve and croak.

As for my opinion on why Alaska king salmon and many other of our sea creatures here are disappearing, I have to guess that it’s primarily due to over fishing.
The tonnage of Alaska fish and shell fish that is taken each year is staggering.
The major bulk of fin fish are taken with huge nets and the rest are taken with both hook and line plus fish wheels (aka: river current driven fish traps).

Also, we are way too soft on foreign ships unlawfully netting in our waters.
But then, the USA, including Alaska is way too soft on all criminals these days.
We have not lost our teeth.
We have thrown them away.

Happy Memory—> I have tried again to attach the picture of my son playing a 40+ pound king salmon on an 11W fly rod.
Hopefully it will post this time.
The pic was taken with a cheap, disposable camera and I was lucky on the timing of its jump.
After a lengthy battle and finally maneuvering it into shallow water, he immediately released the fish.

Yours Truly,
General Miles.

 

[Ragman]

You’d better bring some heavy gear! I had ten hookups on an 8 wt one night on the Kasilof. Finally landed one after running about 1/2 mile downstream with it! They’re smallish on the Kasilof, 20-25 pounds.

On a serious note, fish the Holitna river and fish Kings, Sheefish and big pike on the same trip. Try Alaska Wilderness Adventures. For my money, the sheefish is the greatest game fish in Alaska and most folks have never heard of it. Contact Alaskan Adventures: info@alaskanadventures.net

Here’s a sheefish if you’re wondering.

View attachment 597526

That’s a bucket list fish for me. Nice one!

 

[fourfive8]

Foxi,

Greetings from Anchorage.

The reasons for declining fish and other sea animals, such as crab, sea lions and many others remains unanswered.
Here and around the world this topic has been argued without finding any answers.

I will guess that when the earth warms up (as it sometimes does, according to the fossil record), many more life forms / species flourish than ones that perish.
When the earth cools, many species die.
The fossil record is very clear and simple on this.
I do not know if the earth is warming now or not, because here in Alaska it is colder than a dictator’s heart.
However I suspect that it is warming, because the local glaciers are melting.

Now before everyone starts shrieking and running for cover, don’t panic because again, according to the fossil record, this is the normal Yin and Yang of our planet.
At the moment and thankfully, it looks like we’re in a Yang phase. (warming)
I am one more Alaskan who says, “Hurry up Global Warming, we’re freezing here.”
The bawl babies can save their hand wringing and uncontrollable weeping for when we get stuck in a Yin phase (ice age).
That’s when many species starve and croak.

As for my opinion on why Alaska king salmon and many other of our sea creatures here are disappearing, I have to guess that it’s primarily due to over fishing.
The tonnage of Alaska fish and shell fish that is taken each year is staggering.
The major bulk of fin fish are taken with huge nets and the rest are taken with both hook and line plus fish wheels (aka: river current driven fish traps).

Also, we are way too soft on foreign ships unlawfully netting in our waters.
But then, the USA, including Alaska is way too soft on all criminals these days.
We have not lost our teeth.
We have thrown them away.

Happy Memory—> I have tried again to attach the picture of my son playing a 40+ pound king salmon on an 11W fly rod.
Hopefully it will post this time.
The pic was taken with a cheap, disposable camera and I was lucky on the timing of its jump.
After a lengthy battle and finally maneuvering it into shallow water, he immediately released the fish.

Yours Truly,
General Miles.

Yep, I have forever wondered why this issue is skipped right over when discussing declining king numbers. I'd first look at commercial fishing, especially by the likes of Russia, Japan and now China.

 

[Mekaniks]

Contact these guys

Home - Chugach Backcountry Fishing - Fish Like An Alaskan

chugachbackcountryfishing.com

 

[Ryan]

Yep, I have forever wondered why this issue is skipped right over when discussing declining king numbers. I'd first look at commercial fishing, especially by the likes of Russia, Japan and now China.

I don't want to derail this thread but after working out of Dutch Harbor for five years on commerical fishing vessels I can say it's not foreign vessels, it's us. With all the satellites and surveillance by the USCG very few if any foreign vessels get across our Exclusive Economic Zone lines and definitely not for very long. On the other side of those lines it's a whole different matter.

 

[Mekaniks]

I don't want to derail this thread but after working out of Dutch Harbor for five years on commerical fishing vessels I can say it's not foreign vessels, it's us. With all the satellites and surveillance by the USCG very few if any foreign vessels get across our Exclusive Economic Zone lines and definitely not for very long. On the other side of those lines it's a whole different matter.

Yes Sir

 

[Velo Dog]

Greetings Ryan,

I totally agree with you that the #1 seafood pirate, rapidly now destroying Alaska fish supplies, is ourself.
The reason I earlier mentioned foreign vessels raiding our waters is because we don’t treat them harshly enough when indeed they do steal our fish.
If we spanked them hard enough (oppressive fines AND make an artificial reef from their hulls) , I suspect they’d stay clear of our home waters.

Cheers,
Paul.

PS:
China is not only stealing our fish but clearly, they are planning to attack us militarily —> WW III, as they covet our grain growing capabilities, oil fields, steel mills, modern and abundant factories and our valuable real estate in general.
I pray that it is not within our lifetimes but only they know the answer to that.
If they join hands with Russia, N. Korea, Venezuela and the radical Muslim culture, I fear they will win and fairly quickly at that.
That whole covid thing smacks of a test to discover how long a virus takes to saturate the world.
No doubt they have or are working on a deadly virus to follow some dark day, right after they quietly vaccinate their people.
And that “weather” balloon that Biden allowed them to fly over our missile silos.
Jeee, do we think it was really about weather?

Anyway, rant over and my apology to all for this derailment of the topic.
I’ll shut my clam shell now.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

What is the benefit of silvers over kings, fellas? I would rather have a few pulls a day for bigger fish than catch high numbers of smaller fish. But that's just me. Would love to know what I'm missing on this one.

As others have said, it's a numbers thing, and for my money no salmon fights like a silver. I have had combo moose/fishing float and stationary camp trips (sorry... I don't just fish often; I want to be chasing large mammals) where it's not uncommon for everyone to have fish on at the same time, or to go 10+ casts in a row with a fish on. Dead serious. If you want fewer, larger fish, I respect that. Frankly I find 10-12 pound silvers on 8 pound line extremely fun. The rivers I fish, the silvers are mostly 26-32 inches and run 8-12 pounds or so. I don't fly fish but my hunting buddy does and he does quite well, though not as well as spinning tackle and a brightly colored Vibrax.

Yes, and the bears in salmon country are usually more lethargic in September. Lots to eat and metabolism cranking down for hibernation. They are not interested in much except eating and napping.

The bears are there, but if it's a good berry year by September they are often up a bit higher hitting the berries hard. A few years back we fished a small lake. Silvers were in heavy at the mouth. We only saw one bear on the water that week, but saw over 20+ bears up on the slopes eating berries. The bottom line is bear awareness ANYWHERE up here when they are awake. I personally love that I get to hunt and share the land with them. It adds to the experience.

I just like September a whole lot more than I do mid-summer when the kings are here. It's prettier. It's nice, IMHO. And I like numbers over absolute size. Maybe I never quite got over the bluegill days of my youth.

 

[fourfive8]

We can theoretically control the commercial fishing within our territorial waters. And yes, if left unchecked or over-liberalized, US commercial fishers can target huge groups of fish and over-harvest them as they stage in the delta waters of major drainages just before they head inland. But we have no control of harvest in international waters. Given the nature of our enemies like Russia or China, they couldn't care less about US sport harvest or reproductive escapement thresholds of kings in US spewing waters. Some of those salmon make a circle around half the northern Pacific within the Japan current. Kind of interesting that this past year the Russians so flooded the market with pink salmon that commercial fishing that would ordinarily take some of the silvers in the latter part of the season along with canneries shut down early in Bristol Bay. The result was large numbers of silvers available to both anglers and bears in those drainages.

 

[WAB]

Set netting had to have an impact. When you dramatically cut the number of spawners reaching the river, production is reduced.

I was fortunate to live on the Kenai in the glory days. Many +50# fish over the rail. We wouldn’t consider tagging anything below mid forties. My buddy’s wife boated a 72# fish. She is 5’2”. That fish looks bigger than her in the photos!

 

[DLSJR]

Back to silvers; I think you’ll probably still find solid fishing north of the Yukon River. I had, literally, 100+ fish days on the Unalakleet River when fishing silvers, with 10-14 lb. common. My biggest fish from that river, on a scale, were a few 20 pound fish, 2 or 3. But a 20 lb silver is damn big for that species. Most of the salmon fishing took placein the power 10 miles of the river, so fish were fresh from the Bering Sea. Common to catch fish with sea lice still on them.

The other draw up there was sheefish up to 50+ lbs on some of the rivers like the Innoko and if memory serves me, the Anvik. World class grayling if you’re into line class records. Very large northern pike on some of those rivers as well. The Innoko was and probably still is a great river. There are no rainbows north of the Yukon River but plenty of Dolly Varden & Arctic Char.

One thing I remember hearing from a biologist back when we owned Unalakleet River Lodge was that the Kings were a different population that spent a lot of time very far north in the Bering Sea, including under the ice for much of their lives and pretty much lived on krill. They were excellent fighting fish that averaged mid-20’s and fantastic to eat.

 

[Namagiqa]

Foxi,

Greetings from Anchorage.

The reasons for declining fish and other sea animals, such as crab, sea lions and many others remains unanswered.
Here and around the world this topic has been argued without finding any answers.

I will guess that when the earth warms up (as it sometimes does, according to the fossil record), many more life forms / species flourish than ones that perish.
When the earth cools, many species die.
The fossil record is very clear and simple on this.
I do not know if the earth is warming now or not, because here in Alaska it is colder than a dictator’s heart.
However I suspect that it is warming, because the local glaciers are melting.

Now before everyone starts shrieking and running for cover, don’t panic because again, according to the fossil record, this is the normal Yin and Yang of our planet.
At the moment and thankfully, it looks like we’re in a Yang phase. (warming)
I am one more Alaskan who says, “Hurry up Global Warming, we’re freezing here.”
The bawl babies can save their hand wringing and uncontrollable weeping for when we get stuck in a Yin phase (ice age).
That’s when many species starve and croak.

As for my opinion on why Alaska king salmon and many other of our sea creatures here are disappearing, I have to guess that it’s primarily due to over fishing.
The tonnage of Alaska fish and shell fish that is taken each year is staggering.
The major bulk of fin fish are taken with huge nets and the rest are taken with both hook and line plus fish wheels (aka: river current driven fish traps).

Also, we are way too soft on foreign ships unlawfully netting in our waters.
But then, the USA, including Alaska is way too soft on all criminals these days.
We have not lost our teeth.
We have thrown them away.

Happy Memory—> I have tried again to attach the picture of my son playing a 40+ pound king salmon on an 11W fly rod.
Hopefully it will post this time.
The pic was taken with a cheap, disposable camera and I was lucky on the timing of its jump.
After a lengthy battle and finally maneuvering it into shallow water, he immediately released the fish.

Yours Truly,
General Miles.

One issue we have is that commercial fishing interests dwarf sport fishing and subsistence use. That means that commercial fishing interests have a LOT more money and are much better represented in lobbying and boards. Those commercial fishing interests have a strong financial motivation to downplay the risks of by-catch and their fishing methods.

 

[DLSJR]

One issue we have is that commercial fishing interests dwarf sport fishing and subsistence use. That means that commercial fishing interests have a LOT more money and are much better represented in lobbying and boards. Those commercial fishing interests have a strong financial motivation to downplay the risks of by-catch and their fishing methods.

Bycatch… The dirty secret seldom mentioned. And a major problem.