Any Appetite for a New <$10K Double?

[PerH]

I would love one of these someday, I’m a bit infamous for loving stainless for the look of it.

I think stainless and either a epoxy stabilized laminate stock (all the benefits of synthetic, no worries of it moving on you) would keep more of the beauty of the rifle, even if not nearly as pretty as fine Circassian walnut, and still be flawless functionality

And as a wildcatter, I think it would be fun to do one in a 450/400 shortened a bit and necked down to 35 cal to have oomph but less drop for bear country.

Or even a 7.62x54r wildcat where it’s just necked down slightly to .308 instead of .311 for better bullet selection

None of this will probably ever happen, but it’s fun to think about

.35 WCF is one you can say is similar to a .400 wildcat but different case and thinner rim .

And Finnish 7,62x53R is .308 bullet in Mosin case . Sako, Lapua load it commercially wildcats and factory options is from .257,.264 ,7mm,8mm, 9,3 . In Russia known as «9x53R» 265-275 grain bullet used . For both bolt , doubles , and so on . Was one Breschnev favorite cartridges .

 

[DaBill]

Tom Im curious as to your thought are for these outside the box suggestions. Does any sound realistic as far as other calibers? Seems like adding a caliber that is not currently offered would add expense to the project.

 

[Alistair]

I very much like the idea of an honest, reliable, no-frills double. Something in the spirit of the old 'Army&Navy' contract stuff the British makers used to do.

Maybe it's an entry into the space, maybe it's a back up gun you can use for practice instead of adding wear to your 'fancy' one, maybe it's your gun for hunts you know will be hard on equipment, maybe it's just all you want in a double full stop. If it works 'just as well' as the expensive models, then that's a compelling proposition compared to the other 'value' options.

However, for me personally to consider one, it does need to be offered in some larger 'safari' calibers. 450-400 I'd consider, although 450NE or 470NE would be preferred.

If its just the two calibers that you mentioned in your OP, then personally I will not be buying one. I don't want a rimless cartridge in a double, and I don't see the point in the 45-70. What would I use it for?

As for including mounts, it can't do any harm, although I won't claim that it's something I particularly care about as a 'purchase incentive'. I echo others that I'd rather see you focus on making sure you have loads of secure mounting options that work with the gun than offering a 'freebie'.

 

[Rifleman97]

.35 WCF is one you can say is similar to a .400 wildcat but different case and thinner rim .

And Finnish 7,62x53R is .308 bullet in Mosin case . Sako, Lapua load it commercially wildcats and factory options is from .257,.264 ,7mm,8mm, 9,3 . In Russia known as «9x53R» 265-275 grain bullet used . For both bolt , doubles , and so on . Was one Breschnev favorite cartridges .

The 35wcf is only capable of throwing a 200gr bullet at 2300-2450 with SAAMI pressures, I’m wanting a 230-250 grain bullet going 2700-3000fps for flatter trajectory while keeping good penetration potential with heavy (ish) per caliber bullets and the higher BC of those heavier bullets. Shooting a light for caliber bullet the same speed as the 450/400 doesn’t actually gain anything in terms of drop over the 400, just reduces recoil.

Basically a slightly more powerful 35 whelen rimmed, but with enough case volume to get 35 whelen velocities at a little less pressure for better reliability. If I was content with 22-2400fps for drop I wouldn’t bother necking down the 450/400 as it’s capable of those velocities.

The 7.62x53r is interesting as I’ve never heard of it before, the only reason I don’t shoot my Mosin is I really don’t want to deal with .311 bullets and their poor selection.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

All,

As some of you know, I manage a brand of double rifles (Chapuis). I am kicking around some ideas for 2026 new product introductions. One of them is to offer a basic model with no engraving, 2-star wood and no special finish, that would retail for less than $10,000 in 2026.

The calibers I'm thinking about are .375 H&H and .45-70. Configuration would be the same as my African doubles (large action, 26" barrels, express sights, double triggers, ejectors, manual safety).

Why the .45-70? Because with it, hunters could also use it here in the US, especially in states that allow straight-wall cartridges for big game. Why no .450-400 and .470? Because doing so would necessarily cannibalize from my other two lines, the Iphisi and the Elan Classic & Artisan, which are selling well.

Also, I'm thinking of including mounts for RMR red dots on all my African-sized doubles, free of charge.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about this, as well as any suggestions you may have (realistic!) for anything else.

Thank you all in advance, as always.

Have you considered the .458 Win Mag? I know a PH that said he'd buy a double rifle if he could one chambered in that if HR could find one at a reasonable price. The .458 is also a straight wall design like the .45-70 but would have a more power and a greater following with African hunters.

 

[gcbailey]

I have been a Chapuis fan for several years and have owned three 9.3x74R and a 450/400. I love your idea, though 45-70 and 375 H&H wouldn't be my first pick. I know a lot of people love the 375, but I prefer only rimmed cartridges in a double. The three calibers that would get me excited are 22 Hornet, 405 Winchester, and 375 Flanged. I would also be VERY interested in getting the RMR mount for my current Chapuis.

 

[PerH]

The 35wcf is only capable of throwing a 200gr bullet at 2300-2450 with SAAMI pressures, I’m wanting a 230-250 grain bullet going 2700-3000fps for flatter trajectory while keeping good penetration potential with heavy (ish) per caliber bullets and the higher BC of those heavier bullets. Shooting a light for caliber bullet the same speed as the 450/400 doesn’t actually gain anything in terms of drop over the 400, just reduces recoil.

Basically a slightly more powerful 35 whelen rimmed, but with enough case volume to get 35 whelen velocities at a little less pressure for better reliability. If I was content with 22-2400fps for drop I wouldn’t bother necking down the 450/400 as it’s capable of those velocities.

The 7.62x53r is interesting as I’ve never heard of it before, the only reason I don’t shoot my Mosin is I really don’t want to deal with .311 bullets and their poor selection.

.400-350 Rigby could been a option , there it is 310 as a standard and 2150 fps .

You could use the 7x65R case and neck up to .358 also

Option 3 .30 R Blaser necked up to .35

The Finns made the .308 bullet in their rifles , but Soviet bullets can be used due to work with the chamber is done .

Similar the Finnish / Serbian AK in 7,62x39 done the same also ( especially Zastava bolt rifles )

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Thank you but you kind of make my point. They post is about a double at $10k or less you you say increase the budget by 20-40%. Twenty percent maybe, forty percent is a different plateau in my mind. That gets into the territory paying for a good chunk of another hunt. But maybe I just have to bite the bullet so to speak.

Admittedly I’m much more versed in the double shotgun world and market than double rifles. Easier for me to buy expensive shotguns that I use but don’t abuse and sell them for what I paid or more. I expect a double rifle is going the used much harder and I’m less likely to maintain pristine condition like I can with a shotgun by being selective when and how I use it.

I understand your logic and had it myself. It’s why I’ve owned 1/2 a dozen or more doubles over the last 5 years. I tried to get in on the cheap side (despite everyone’s warnings) and wound up selling and moving to the next tier very quickly because something was lacking at that tier or price. My personal opinion is to get to a sub $10k price there’s gonna have to be some additional sacrifices other than wood and finish. I don’t see that being a $6.5K upgrade. If that’s all they change then they will 100% cannibalize sales from their more expensive Elan models without gaining more users.

My post said if you can afford to spend $10k on a double you can afford to spend a little more to get quality at $12k, even if that means saving another few months. That used Iphizi at $10.5k from Chapuis was basically right there in your budget and in your choice of caliber. They’ve come up for sale for less than $10k on occasion and normally don’t last long. The current Elan was once priced at $10k, inflation has driven the price to where it is now and will do so in the future. If you truly want a double, you’ll bite the bullet, until then as you’ve highlighted you have other things that are more valuable.

 

[DaBill]

Uniquely American 50-120 Winchester.... Its rimmed and has similar ballistics to a 470 NE

 

[Rifleman97]

.400-350 Rigby could been a option , there it is 310 as a standard and 2150 fps .

You could use the 7x65R case and neck up to .358 also

Option 3 .30 R Blaser necked up to .35

The Finns made the .308 bullet in their rifles , but Soviet bullets can be used due to work with the chamber is done .

Similar the Finnish / Serbian AK in 7,62x39 done the same also ( especially Zastava bolt rifles )

Most of those (maybe not the 7x65) just aren’t capable of the speed I would be hoping for. I think the most practical solution would be to simply neck down a 375 rimmed to 35 cal, and blow out the case a slight amount, and push the shoulder forward a bit to achieve the powder capacity I’d be needing to get a 250 grainer to 2700+ to match or exceed 375 h&h in terms of ballistic drop

That said, practicality isn’t often what’s most fun.

If I had the capability of making my own brass from scratch, I’d design what was essentially a 404 Jeffery but rimmed, necked down to 35 cal with more case taper than an ackley improved, but far less case taper than a holland and holland round. The neck would be .358” long, overall cartridge length with a 250 grain round would be somewhere around 3.8-4 inches. If I was feeling extra spicy I might consider doing essentially a rimmed 416 rigby necked down to 35 cal, same idea with shoulder pushed forward, but the purpose with that would be to achieve 300+ grain projectiles at 2700+, but at a little bit lower pressures

Now is not the time for me to design something like that, but it might be fun to make one like that someday for a custom rifle. I have an engineering mind and if I made a wildcat for every cool idea I had, well, I’d be bankrupt lol

 

[meigsbucks]

The concept of a quality plain Jane double rifle in the sub $10k price point sounds spot on. Look how many Sabatti’s Cabela’s was selling and many of those were junk.
As far as a .45/70 for straight wall states, I think that is flawed. I live in Ohio and most hunters are gravitating to the .350 Legend in inexpensive bolt guns. A few will purchase Marlin or Henry lever rifles but most don’t want the recoil. Funny considering about six years ago, before rifles were legal, they shot 12ga slugs.
I understand the point of not wanting to cannibalize the higher end .450/.400 market (I’d buy one in a heartbeat). Although I would much prefer rimmed rounds, the .375 HH, .416 Rem and .458 Win would be my choices along with an 9.3x74R. Also, an RMR mount.

 

[PerH]

Most of those (maybe not the 7x65) just aren’t capable of the speed I would be hoping for. I think the most practical solution would be to simply neck down a 375 rimmed to 35 cal, and blow out the case a slight amount, and push the shoulder forward a bit to achieve the powder capacity I’d be needing to get a 250 grainer to 2700+ to match or exceed 375 h&h in terms of ballistic drop

That said, practicality isn’t often what’s most fun.

If I had the capability of making my own brass from scratch, I’d design what was essentially a 404 Jeffery but rimmed, necked down to 35 cal with more case taper than an ackley improved, but far less case taper than a holland and holland round. The neck would be .358” long, overall cartridge length with a 250 grain round would be somewhere around 3.8-4 inches. If I was feeling extra spicy I might consider doing essentially a rimmed 416 rigby necked down to 35 cal, same idea with shoulder pushed forward, but the purpose with that would be to achieve 300+ grain projectiles at 2700+, but at a little bit lower pressures

Now is not the time for me to design something like that, but it might be fun to make one like that someday for a custom rifle. I have an engineering mind and if I made a wildcat for every cool idea I had, well, I’d be bankrupt lol

Brenneke made a 9,3x65R on the 7x65R case

And that was ballistics of the 9,3x64

But the .375 Fl case could work also

What would been even better , and unthinkable Bertram could make brass there as custom option is take the .404 case to 2.5 inch make it flanged and .35


Or .30 R Blaser case up to .35 I think it’s some euro types of it around , it’s been used for .338 also I’m pretty certain of .

 

[PerH]

« and I think Bertram could make brass» I meant but auto check said something else

 

[DaBill]

I think Bertran does make 404 jeffery rimmed. I haven't done a deep dive but the 404 Jeffery and the 450/400 NE have very similar Ballistics and recoil.
I’d like to throw in a vote for .404 Jeffery Rimmed as the ideal caliber for a no-frills Chapuis double.

It hits the sweet spot: enough power for buffalo, less recoil than a .470 NE, and it’s already got a long, proven track record in Africa. The rimmed version solves the one issue the original had in a break-open gun — extraction. At ~2150 fps with a 450-grain bullet, it’s a smooth shooter with real stopping power.

It’s got history, practicality, and it fits Chapuis’s Safari platform without reinventing the wheel. Lower pressure, reliable ejection, easy regulation — all wins for a serious working double.

 

[PerH]

I think Bertran does make 404 jeffery rimmed. I haven't done a deep dive but the 404 Jeffery and the 450/400 NE have very similar Ballistics and recoil.
I’d like to throw in a vote for .404 Jeffery Rimmed as the ideal caliber for a no-frills Chapuis double.

It hits the sweet spot: enough power for buffalo, less recoil than a .470 NE, and it’s already got a long, proven track record in Africa. The rimmed version solves the one issue the original had in a break-open gun — extraction. At ~2150 fps with a 450-grain bullet, it’s a smooth shooter with real stopping power.

It’s got history, practicality, and it fits Chapuis’s Safari platform without reinventing the wheel. Lower pressure, reliable ejection, easy regulation — all wins for a serious working double.

Guns&Ammo boss made a a .460 G&A Nr2 that was a .458-404 case on a converted H&H .458 double rifle . So it’s possible to go for the direct option of it also .

 

[Altitude sickness]

I’m confident the company still wants to make money and stay in business. I doubt the goal here is to find a pet project in a caliber that only a handful of people will purchase. The DR market is minuscule anyway.

Picture Tom getting on a conference call with the team. “ I’ve got it.

An $9999.00 DR in a caliber that no one has ever heard of. His competitors would love the idea.

 

[KJE81]

I would think that either 9,3x74R or the .375 H&H would be the way to go, both established calibers and Chapuis seems to be comfortable making double rifles for .375 H&H even though it is rimless.

 

[WI-2021]

I wonder what the market would be for an all weather double. I'm thinking S/S and either a synthetic or laminate stock. It would be about as far from traditional as one could get, but as far as I know, it doesn't exist in the current market. Perhaps something like this could sell without cannibalizing the existing product lines too badly.

Offer a couple different stock color options in fiberglass. Design the stock to be cut to length easily and to accommodate added weight for balancing in different chamberings. Because I'm left-handed, of course a LH stock will need to be offered.

Design an adjustable regulation system to reduce the labor of regulating. It would still need to be regulated from the factory, but a good system could reduce that labor substantially. Not having solder on the barrels also opens up other finishing options such as nitride that are less labor intensive than traditional bluing.

The quality fitment still needs to be there, so there will still be a lot of hand labor, but substantial reductions in labor for stock work, regulation, and bluing should result in a very significant cost reduction. I'm no expert on doubles, but I suspect this could easily sell for under $10k, assuming design and tooling costs don't get too far out of hand.

I'd keep double triggers, ejectors, express sights, and the traditional rimmed cartridges on the menu. At this point, I think that having integrated mounting for micro red dots is almost mandatory, so integrate a universal system for future-proofing. If that system can also accommodate a peep/ghost ring rear sight option that's even better.

 

[spike.t]

I’m confident the company still wants to make money and stay in business. I doubt the goal here is to find a pet project in a caliber that only a handful of people will purchase. The DR market is minuscule anyway.

Picture Tom getting on a conference call with the team. “ I’ve got it.

An $9999.00 DR in a caliber that no one has ever heard of. His competitors would love the idea.

Yeah....seem to be a lot of people going down slightly ridiculous rabbit holes here....

 

[HookMeUpII]

This is just me, personally, but.... If I am buying a DR, I am buying for dangerous game in Africa. With that being said. 375HH, 375HH flanged, 416 Rigby, 450NE, 470NE, 458WM, etc.

I'm sorry but I can't quite discern why anyone would want a DR in 45-70. At that rate, they would just get the 375HH and then use it for everything from DG in the USA, to DG in Africa, larger African PG, etc.

Back to me, personally, I would be taking a real hard look if you offered it in 470NE or even 458WM.

I'd really want one in 416 Rigby but that's just me being selfish, and something I've always wanted.

Either way, it could definitely get traction.