Another Ph/outfitter question on quotes

[Frederik]

Bill,

The hunting industry is extremely competitive especially in South Africa there are over 10 000 PH's in this country but only about 2500-3000 Outfitters roughly and then to top it all between 4500-6000 intl clients per year to be split by all. Now more than 70% of these PH's and Outfitters don't depend on their hunting profit to earn a living that is the issue where some can charge way below normal average rates as he only wants to keep his PH and Outfitter permit running.

You need to book ceratin amount of days in order to keep registered.
Some areas are much cheaper on their native game than others so you can't just compare the pricelist but you should actually break it up in regions as well.

In the end go with someone you feel comofortable with as well as their rates its your hard earned money so spend it well.

 

[ChrisT]

Bill,

My answer would be "yes"... We would all like a second chance to quote a customer.

Although it could be quite difficult sometimes... because when we I get a response from the customer after my initial quote to the likes of: "I got a quote from another Outfitter that is cheaper - can you do better?" it could sometimes feel like I'm being played off... Say I revise my quote and cut some of the prices (and by implication on my profit) what happens next? Is the customer now going to write to the "other" Outfitter and tell him: "I got a quote from another Outfitter that is cheaper - can you do better?" Where will this end and by how much am I prepared to cut my margins? It is also difficult to revise a quote if you don't know what you are up against. Obviously we want to make as much as possible from the hunt whilst still remaining competitive in the marketplace. E.g. it would make it easier for us if the customer said upfront: "I have received a quote for a X day hunt including Y animals of $Z, what is the best offer you can make to me?" Or; "I have a budget of $X, I want to spend Y number of days in Africa and hunt Z animals... This way; we can look at the quote / budget, decide if we can compete with it and then either re-quote the customer or tell him - sorry, I can't beat it... then no-one's time is wasted...

There is a difference between a "competitively priced" hunt and a "cheap" hunt.

I cannot and don't want to compete with guys who are offering cheap hunts as I don't think "cheap" hunts do the industry any good... quality does come at a price as has been said before... Healthy competition on the other hand does have benefits...

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Chris, 100% I hate being played it's not a wallmart.

My best.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Chris,
You nailed it.
The cost of a hunt can often far outweigh the price. What I'm trying to say, a cheap hunt can very easily end up costing you a whole lot more, and I am not just talking financially.

Best Regards
Marius Goosen

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I want as much hunting as possible for my money, but at the same time would I never let the price be the deciding factor for what place to go hunting.
Yes, the price is important. But the most important to me is that I feel confident that I am going to a serious outfitter where I feel I will enjoy my stay and hunt no matter how many or big animals I manage to get.

 

[billc]

Thanks for all the answers and glad to see other Ph make there comments.I total agree with all that was said.I guess depending on the client this could be an ugly process as an outfitter.I do not look at the cheapest for sure.I think the middle is always best for me most of the time.I personally am not looking to go back a third time to someone to try for more.I would only be trying to get the best deal from the few I am deciding from.Sometimes you come down to two guys you feel the same about and they are offeing the same bang for the buck.Then it may come to who is giving the best deal.The one thing someone willing to work on something the second time does for me is.That it shows it is not all about how much they can make and alot about hunting.Someone willing to work with me goes along ways in my eyes.Like I said when I started this post I blame you africa outfitters (lol) you guys make it hard to pick.The ones on this website make it even harder to pick because you all come across as people I would love to hunt with.So different that what you get back here in the states.Thanks again and i will be emailing for quotes soon.

 

[Baydog]

There are other ways the deal could be sweetened without breaking the outfitter's bank. Why not throw in gun rental for free, or give a steep discount on an observer rate so the guy can bring his wife or a non hunting buddy? What about adding a few cull animals? I know most outfitters hate being nickled and dimed but I hate being nickled and dimed too and am trying to get as much bang for my buck, especially in these economic times.

 

[spike.t]

There are other ways the deal could be sweetened without breaking the outfitter's bank. Why not throw in gun rental for free, or give a steep discount on an observer rate so the guy can bring his wife or a non hunting buddy? What about adding a few cull animals? I know most outfitters hate being nickled and dimed but I hate being nickled and dimed too and am trying to get as much bang for my buck, especially in these economic times.

baydog these economic times are affecting the outfitters/operators the same as the clients. the deals being offered on this site are very good. i think if you looked into it most of the prices for hunting, especially in south africa ,they are in real terms less than they were a few years ago.

 

[Baydog]

baydog these economic times are affecting the outfitters/operators the same as the clients. the deals being offered on this site are very good. i think if you looked into it most of the prices for hunting, especially in south africa ,they are in real terms less than they were a few years ago.

Maybe I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say. The initial question was would outfitters appreciate a chance to provide a better offer if the client received a better quote from another outfitter. My point was that the outfitter could possibly sweeten the deal by offering some bonus items that might not affect his overhead as much in the long run. No doubt , there are lots of deals and the prices are good, it's about being given the chance to counter the competitor's offer.

 

[James.Grage]

Chris

Has this 100% covered.

1 non paying client could put some PH-outfitter out of business.

I do believe that billc has an PH-outfitter in line and is looking for ammunition to get them to lower there prices.

Going with 2 or 4 is a localized safari group, happens all the time. Now if billc were taking a party of 20 that is willing to put down a non refundable deposit that another deal.

Bill,

My answer would be "yes"... We would all like a second chance to quote a customer.

Although it could be quite difficult sometimes... because when we I get a response from the customer after my initial quote to the likes of: "I got a quote from another Outfitter that is cheaper - can you do better?" it could sometimes feel like I'm being played off... Say I revise my quote and cut some of the prices (and by implication on my profit) what happens next? Is the customer now going to write to the "other" Outfitter and tell him: "I got a quote from another Outfitter that is cheaper - can you do better?" Where will this end and by how much am I prepared to cut my margins? It is also difficult to revise a quote if you don't know what you are up against. Obviously we want to make as much as possible from the hunt whilst still remaining competitive in the marketplace. E.g. it would make it easier for us if the customer said upfront: "I have received a quote for a X day hunt including Y animals of $Z, what is the best offer you can make to me?" Or; "I have a budget of $X, I want to spend Y number of days in Africa and hunt Z animals... This way; we can look at the quote / budget, decide if we can compete with it and then either re-quote the customer or tell him - sorry, I can't beat it... then no-one's time is wasted...

There is a difference between a "competitively priced" hunt and a "cheap" hunt.

I cannot and don't want to compete with guys who are offering cheap hunts as I don't think "cheap" hunts do the industry any good... quality does come at a price as has been said before... Healthy competition on the other hand does have benefits...

 

[TOM]

taking a party of 20 that is willing to put down a non refundable deposit that another deal.

Yeah, I run into this all the time. The billionaire groups of 20 are great to have as clients.

 

[numzaanstef]

Dear friends,
Over the years the Safari industry changed significantly. 
It is very difficult these days to get the profit margin over 10%.   We as outfitters are on shows were the clients move from outfitter to outfitter comparing prices and negotiating for better prices. It is at the end of the day our choice whether we want to lower our prices just to say we signed a client. It is very important to remember that if we give $10 of we have to give $10 less in service. 
It is quite Interesting to see how many clients are are having problems with trophies not exported because the land owner was not payed. A long reputation is very important. 
We understand that the economy is forcing "shopping". We make a living from your access income. Believe me, we know the economy is bad. Our inflation is close to 6%, we are getting R6.2 to the us $. 
Business is business and all must make or save a buck.

Stef Swanepoel     


If you woke up is a good day

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Stef
Have to disagree with what you are saying and to be honest so should you, I was killed on price by Numzaan on 2 shows and yet our brochure rates on trophy fees are substantially lower than yours.....

Also drawing the conclusion that with a package ( with reduced rates) comes a lower level of service , I must admit that while this might be the way you see it, most other outfits of equal quality to yours do not. I have been, as you been around the block for a couple of years maybe not as long as you.....but most definetly long enough to know how it works, and selling and pushing hunts at web rates surely does not enable you to run at volume and connecting with 2000 head of game a season.....

Not trying to be contradictary but simply stating facts.

You do run a tight ship with good service but please lets call a spade a spade.

My best as always

Dear friends,
Over the years the Safari industry changed significantly.
It is very difficult these days to get the profit margin over 10%. We as outfitters are on shows were the clients move from outfitter to outfitter comparing prices and negotiating for better prices. It is at the end of the day our choice whether we want to lower our prices just to say we signed a client. It is very important to remember that if we give $10 of we have to give $10 less in service.
It is quite Interesting to see how many clients are are having problems with trophies not exported because the land owner was not payed. A long reputation is very important.
We understand that the economy is forcing "shopping". We make a living from your access income. Believe me, we know the economy is bad. Our inflation is close to 6%, we are getting R6.2 to the us $.
Business is business and all must make or save a buck.

Stef Swanepoel


If you woke up is a good day

 

[billc]

James I think you may be guessing I have someone in mind but do not for the limpo area.The only for sure thing I got is a hunt again with hartzview and the deal he gives me is the deal I will take on that part of the hunt.He earn my business already but with wanting to see other areas this calls for another outfitter or maybe two.Jacques will not get the can you bet this price from me on that part of the hunt with him.James maybe you have friends or you do business like you have accused me of but way off on this one you are.I found in my past the ones who accuse people of things are the ones who normal do that stuff.I am not playing anyone but what to do what I thought was fair so i ask what most would do.They would all be able to say no the price is the price.I am not looking for some low ball cheap hunt.If I want to be cheap I would just say can you bet this price if not move on.I am not going to tell anyone what they even need to do as that is not fair.They can come back with any offer they like so they can make the most they can.Again the right place may not need to offer much to get the hunt booked.I may just need that little extra to justify going with them on a hunt that could cost me more then some of the cheaper offers.There will be no going back for a third offer to anyone.

 

[Baydog]

James I think you may be guessing I have someone in mind but do not for the limpo area.The only for sure thing I got is a hunt again with hartzview and the deal he gives me is the deal I will take on that part of the hunt.He earn my business already but with wanting to see other areas this calls for another outfitter or maybe two.Jacques will not get the can you bet this price from me on that part of the hunt with him.James maybe you have friends or you do business like you have accused me of but way off on this one you are.I found in my past the ones who accuse people of things are the ones who normal do that stuff.I am not playing anyone but what to do what I thought was fair so i ask what most would do.They would all be able to say no the price is the price.I am not looking for some low ball cheap hunt.If I want to be cheap I would just say can you bet this price if not move on.I am not going to tell anyone what they even need to do as that is not fair.They can come back with any offer they like so they can make the most they can.Again the right place may not need to offer much to get the hunt booked.I may just need that little extra to justify going with them on a hunt that could cost me more then some of the cheaper offers.There will be no going back for a third offer to anyone.

Bill, there's absolutely nothing wrong with shopping around and throwing numbers back so that outfitters have a second chance. If it's not worth their while, they'll tell you and may be able to provide an explanation of why there's is still the better hunt despite the price. That's the beauty of competition.

 

[numzaanstef]

Very important point raised by Fredrik. We that make a living from hunting cannot compete with the business man that owns a property and can cut the prices way below our cost. That is not comparing apples with apples. 

If you woke up is a good day
Stef Swanepoel

 

[numzaanstef]

Jaco,
This is a friendly request from me personaly. Please let me know the date that will suit you. Come to our office in Thabazimbi and I will open my books for you, then you will have the facts. You are more than welcome to disagree. 
Is it not promoted that on this web that the outfitter should be given a second chance on a quotation? I am sorry to hear that that you lost clients to Numzaan. 
It is the decision of each and every person how he wants to run a business. Jaco, you get packages and packages. What i was talking about is some clients buying a donation at a function for $250 and then want to get a "deal" deal on other more animals and days added to the hunt.

 

[numzaanstef]

Bill, there's absolutely nothing wrong with shopping around and throwing numbers back so that outfitters have a second chance. If it's not worth their while, they'll tell you and may be able to provide an explanation of why there's is still the better hunt despite the price. That's the beauty of competition.


Amen to that

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Stef
Coming out of a Eastern Cape company in 99, 2000 that use to total 3000 head of game a season as well as another doing well inexcess of a 1000 in limpopo, I do very well know how it works.

We, me/you can say what we like if you are not open to deal or donate you will not book volume..,.end of story and there is nothing wrong with it. (personally I am not willing to play the donation game) neither am I interested in running volume and building an empire...but thats just me.

I would like to catagorically state that I have never lost a client to your well known/well established company....I have been asked to match prices which I simply refused to do......,

And Stef to the largest extent this is due to the fact that we do not run on volume, if you as an outfitter (and by that I am not reffering to you personally) have 15 people in one camp 6 in another, 4 in Zim and two in the Kalahari all at the same time, simple FACT is that you have more room to work on price, due to the volume you are running end of story.

I don't so my margins are much higer, the cheff that cooks costs more, per peson due to this exact reason, the electricity bill...... Staff salaries... everything raises a bar when not running on volume as you very well know. But this is the way we operate and its not an issue for us.

I would say the bigger the property you own the higher the running costs and not the opposite as stated earlier on the thread,

I just feel we need to be forthcoming when discussing this on a forum with other hunters as well,...... as far as your books are concerned I have absolutly NO desire to look at them, you have your place in this industry and I have mine each to his own..... granted,

I understand completely what you are reffering to on the donations Guys prey on them and book 3 in a row.... and buy the same one year after year with the same outfitter and then want to exchange species (what happened to clients loyalty?)
I have always thought what would happen if all outfits pulled Donations from SA for one season...would we then be taken seriously by SCI?

Would be interesting to know.

My best always

 

[Bobpuckett]

Billc I to think that the other outfitter would like a Second chance Last fall I was talking to an Outfitter here on AH about a hunt he made me an offer and yes it was a good one but I emailed him back and let him know that I would be going back to the outfitter that I hunted with last time that they still owed me a Warthog he emailed me back and said that he knows I want a warthog and he has some very good ones on his farm and he would give me one for free and he offered a better daily rate and said he would guide us himself well we're still back to our old outfitter but that moved him up to top place for next year I'll not hold him to the free Warthog but anyone willing to work that hard for my Business is going to get it even if its just to pay the daily rate and sit and drink a beer with him that we didn't get to do in Dallas.