Another 458 Win Mag thread

[Piet-Vis]

Hi Guys

I'm interested. There are plenty of people with very strong opinions about the 458 Win Mag on this site. Why is it that people question the ability of the 458 Win Mag, but not the ability of the 470 NE. Both calibres shoot essentially the same projectile (well, give and take a few thousands of an inch) - 500 grain @2150fps. Why is it that some seems to hate the Win Mag, but nobody seem to judge the NE? Or am I missing something?

BTW. If all goes well I will buy a Pre64 458 Win Mag Super Grade tomorrow. Why? I want to see a bit more reaction when I shoot a Ele in the head. I've had my chance on a few desert bulls in Bots and next I want to try my hand on a tuskless cow in Zim. Hunting Ele's are a special type of addiction. I can't think of anything that both terrifies and excites me as such at the same time.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Because 60 years ago there were problems with 458 not meeting velocity specs. People let things go at different rates.

 

[crs]

Start fresh. Remember that Opinions do not matter - only facts matter.
Example-- what bullet at what velocity does it take to kill the animals I will hunt?

When that is known, what rifle and ammo combo is available that I can afford and shoot well.

All the above can be learned quickly if you can read books and or have access to the Internet.


There - see how simple that was? Really, do away with the BS and go hunting!

 

[Sarg]

Most if not all the haters haven't even used the 458Win or they wouldn't bad mouth it .

I have used it for years on all manner of game, works great on Big Bovines, I have had solids go from the Ass & out the face on back up shots but haven't used it or had any of my hunters use it on Elephants, I'm not that experienced on Ele's really, only a couple of hunts & some interaction in the field, I think I would go with some thing like a 500NE or other large .50 if targeting Eles myself ?

As you say they make me feel a little uneasy !

 

[JanP]

@ Sarg. If you have nothing to say about the calibre on Ele just refrain from answering.
Although You were quite right about 458Win bashing by people that never shot this calibre in real life.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Got a bad wrap years and years ago which have been corrected with modern components. People heard from a guy that heard from another guy whose friend was a dog walker for some guy that heard from another guy that it didn’t work……. Which is exactly why people won’t use it.

 

[Sarg]

Well actually @JanP he never asked about its effectiveness on Elephants, just why it was Bad mouthed & I replied to that, the guys don't know what they are talking about !

Than stated I hadn't used it on Ele's as he said that's what he might be targeting, I think a fair comment ?

 

[thriller]

Hi Guys

I'm interested. There are plenty of people with very strong opinions about the 458 Win Mag on this site. Why is it that people question the ability of the 458 Win Mag, but not the ability of the 470 NE. Both calibres shoot essentially the same projectile (well, give and take a few thousands of an inch) - 500 grain @2150fps. Why is it that some seems to hate the Win Mag, but nobody seem to judge the NE? Or am I missing something?

BTW. If all goes well I will buy a Pre64 458 Win Mag Super Grade tomorrow. Why? I want to see a bit more reaction when I shoot a Ele in the head. I've had my chance on a few desert bulls in Bots and next I want to try my hand on a tuskless cow in Zim. Hunting Ele's are a special type of addiction. I can't think of anything that both terrifies and excites me as such at the same time.

While I have not shot an elephant with mine yet it the Buffalo I shot with it reacted for sure dead within 100 yards

 

[Major Bonkers]

It was the favoured calibre of Richard Harland, who had a Mannlicher-Schöenauer in .458WM. You can read all about his exploits in his book The Hunting Imperative.

Capstick did not like the calibre. In Death in the Long Grass (p.102-103), he suggests that recoil in the magazine led to compression of powder in the cartridge, and only 2" penetration on an elephant head shot. In Death in the Dark Continent (p.198) he states that soft points will not shoot through lion, due to over-expansion of the bullet 'preventing the excess penetration so desirable'.

Pierre van der Walt, in African Dangerous Game Cartridges (p.325) says: More elephant have probably been killed with the .458 Winchester Magnum since its introduction than with all other large and super bore cartridges put together over the same period. However, he goes on to state the fundamental problem, which is that Winchester ammunition of the time was hugely inconsistent in quality (ie. velocity): Penetration was often poor and failures regular and the .458 Winchester Magnum soon acquired the bad reputation it has never shed. (p.326)

 

[John Telford]

Pieter, it was the clumping powder of compressed loads that started the problems back in the day. Gregor Woods wrote about his 458 clumping after only one week of having reloaded the cartridges so not sure it is entirely solved.
I swapped my 458 WM for A Lott a few years back just to be on the safe side. There is also a trick that a few guys with WM are doing which is to seat the bullet further out . I’m not sure if it will fit in a pre64 mag thought.
have you left Bots? Im helping KK building two camps in NG47 and CT7 so plenty of Ele action coming this season! Can’t wait…

 

[Piet-Vis]

Pieter, it was the clumping powder of compressed loads that started the problems back in the day. Gregor Woods wrote about his 458 clumping after only one week of having reloaded the cartridges so not sure it is entirely solved.
I swapped my 458 WM for A Lott a few years back just to be on the safe side. There is also a trick that a few guys with WM are doing which is to seat the bullet further out . I’m not sure if it will fit in a pre64 mag thought.
have you left Bots? Im helping KK building two camps in NG47 and CT7 so plenty of Ele action coming this season! Can’t wait…

Hi John
Yes, I've moved to Zambia.
Those are nice areas, sounds like you will have good sport!
I might go back for old times sake this year, depending on what permits comes available.
A Lott saved my ass last year, so I have a LOTT of appreciation for the calibre!

 

[John Telford]

There are a few nice rifles in Zambia so don’t rush into it. Hook up with SpikeT (Mike) on AH…

 

[Piet-Vis]

I should probably add that I am happy with the performance of Hornady solids on Elephants and will continue to use them. Hornady gets 2150 fps out of their factory Ammo for the Win Mag. Thus, I view the entire propellant caking business as something of no concern.
I should probably rephrase my question to - why in this day and age is the 470 NE still rated higher than Win Mag with modern powders?

 

[Piet-Vis]

There are a few nice rifles in Zambia so don’t rush into it. Hook up with SpikeT (Mike) on AH…

I will most certainly speak to him, thanks

 

[spike.t]

@ Sarg. If you have nothing to say about the calibre on Ele just refrain from answering.
Although You were quite right about 458Win bashing by people that never shot this calibre in real life.

You get out of the wrong side of bed today....

 

[deewayne2003]

Pieter …. Care to tell us what you have used on the past elephant hunts?

As for the .458 bad reputation, from what I have read it was a mix of what other members have said- bad bullets, poor powder/ powder caking.

Please do us all a favor and post pics of the Super Grade .458 if you end up making the purchase.

 

[AZDAVE]

It is all information for the 60-70's with compressing ball winchester powder that caused the clumping and failure to get the velocity or consistency advertised. Thus in some circles folks have never let go of old information. With modern powder and much better bullets you can safely reach the 2150FPS. So take your 458 and go enjoy your adventures.

 

[crs]

Well said Dave. And good advice - go hunting.
2150 fps .458? Heck, my antique design .45-90 shoots NF 450 grain solids that fast at safe pressures !
Lookie, no scope or red dot thingie!

 

[baxterb]

I don’t think there is any technical issue with the 458 at all. I’m in the process of gathering parts to make one, but a 480 gr woodleigh at 2150 is exactly the same as a 450 NE. Using todays powders (most guys I know use AA2230) you can do it uncompressed.

 

[Nhoro]

I have reload that I have chronographed with a Labradar at the range. 458 Win Mag with 450 and 480 Gr peregrine copper monometal bullets (ie longer than standard so less powder space) at the following : 450 Gr- 2280 fps,480 gr- 2250 fps, @ Badboymelvin has plenty of reloads with Woodleighs that comfortable make 2150 fps with 500 gr conventionals and one other person chrono'd Hornadly factory ammo with 500 gr at 2180 fps or so. That will open the next can of worms on Hornady solids but my brother has used them in his 416 rigby to take 10 + elephant so.....

People will tell you it cannot be done but they have never tried, never chrono'd a round- The facts are there-buried in long rants if you are willing to dig through threads on this forum.