American Standards For Commercially Manufactured Sporting Ammunition

[grand veneur]

This seems strange to me too, although it cannot be exclude with absolute certainty. If the bullets differ in terms of alloy but look the same, a mistake could have occurred, but it is sure that this was not done intentionally. Mistakes have already happened by powder loads of factory cartridges, among other by Winchester years ago.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Nope! Not buying what you are selling Sir!!!

First the US DOES make the best ammunition on the planet! Second they are strictly controlled between lots of manufacture because of massive insurance and government oversight over site!
So NO you cannot get intermixed bullets within the same lot! Not possible!!!
Every lot at the beginning of the run has strict controls of all the components - brass/primers/propellents/bullets that are all from the same lots and runs of each individual component respectively! Never do any of the manufactures mix and mingle components as the are not allowed to and any of the component runs that are over the loaded cartridge run is then sold as individual components from the manufacture…
There is strict government and insurance controls that do not allow them to mingle lots within a manufacturing run so NO the two separate bullets were not loaded and then boxed together, not possible!
Every component has a unique lot number and every loaded cartridge run has a unique lot number. If a manufacturer of any ammunition here in the US does not follow these standards they would lose both their licensing and insurance to manufacture ammunition and would probably be fined severely!

Perhaps, I am confused. But are you being sarcastic ?

If you're not, I'm sorry that you found my findings offensive. But if you open Pierre Van Der Walt's excellent book "African Dangerous Rifles & Cartridges"... then, you will see how he documents finding Winchester Super Speed brand .458 Winchester Magnum cartridges from THE SAME BOX containing two different kinds of propellant- Some being loaded with ball powder & some being loaded with extruded powder. Terry Irwin (in his autobiography "Memoirs Of An African Hunter") reports the same thing. Also .458 Winchester Magnum bullets being of different diameters out of the SAME BOX. Don Heath "Ganyana" reports similar phenomenons on more than one issue of "African Hunter". Even if I'm lying, it's highly unlikely that ALL OF US are.

If American ammunition companies became much more stringent about manufacturing standards after 1990... then, I'm glad. But it would be very unreasonable to deny that these things HAVE happened in the past. The concerned box of Remington solids is from 1990. So around 35 years ago.

P.S: I've gone on record countless times over the last few years mentioning on these forums how much I absolutely love Remington products (especially the 220Gr Core Lokt factory loads in .30-06 Springfield caliber). I've also praised American products countless times on these forums over the last few years. Such as Winchester Power Points, Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, Barnes TSX, Nosler Partitions, Cutting Edge Bullets, etc. So I really have no personal agendas here.

 

[HankBuck]

@HankBuck
I find myself wondering how Remington will do now as a Czech owned company.

@Hunter-Habib there really is NO MORE “Remington” - Not as a Company anyway, only the Name continues to exist. Any positive qualities that use to be associated with the Remington name has been replaced with “concerns” especially with their Firearms. No one would buy a Remington firearm without knowing “What year” it was made. The ammo division was recently purchased and may still be decent quality….I still use their cheaper Yellow & Green box ammo for some practice shooting (but my boxes are 10 years old or more - not sure about the Newer stuff). The Yellow/Green box ammo was decent and good for sighting in a New scope “on target” before switching to another Brand (although the Corelok bullets seem to perform well on deer & shoot accurately). For Remington firearms I really like the older Remington 760 pump rifles and own 2 (.30-06 & .308) both made before 1981, also the older 870 Wingmaster shotguns and 1100 semi auto….they did make some nice guns that functioned well at a reasonable price. I think some of us Born before 1970 remember Remington fondly and appreciate what “they were” .

 

[grand veneur]

If you look at the daily production of cartridges worldwide, it would be somewhat unrealistic to believe that everything always runs without mistakes. The errors are rather not noticed by the majority of users. Nobody checks the alloy of the bullets with a magnet or tests the load of the factory cartridges. In practice, there's always a reason why a shot did not hit where expected. Only a bench-rest shooter or a long range shooter would notice something like that quickly, but most of them load their own cartridges or buy special ammunition that is subject to a different standard.

 

[CZDiesel]

This seems strange to me too, although it cannot be exclude with absolute certainty. If the bullets differ in terms of alloy but look the same, a mistake could have occurred, but it is sure that this was not done intentionally. Mistakes have already happened by powder loads of factory cartridges, among other by Winchester years ago.

It’s not about looking the same it’s about when the manufacturers start a run of ammunition they are stringent that the whole run is using the same lot numbers of each component, another words each component was manufactured to the same design and standard and at the same time in the same run. That way if there is a failure when in public use they can trace down the lot numbers and look to see where and how the failure occurred. If they intermingled lots then they have no way to credibly identify how the failure occurred and they would be 100% liable and would in some cases open themselves up to massive law suits! They would and never do this! The industry is to regulated and the litigious ramifications are way to steep for them and their insurance companies…

Perhaps, I am confused. But are you being sarcastic ?

If you're not, I'm sorry that you found my findings offensive. But if you open Pierre Van Der Walt's excellent book "African Dangerous Rifles & Cartridges"... then, you will see how he documents finding Winchester Super Speed brand .458 Winchester Magnum cartridges from THE SAME BOX containing two different kinds of propellant- Some being loaded with ball powder & some being loaded with extruded powder. Terry Irwin (in his autobiography "Memoirs Of An African Hunter") reports the same thing. Also .458 Winchester Magnum bullets being of different diameters out of the SAME BOX.

If American ammunition companies became much more stringent about manufacturing standards after 1990... then, I'm glad. But it would be very unreasonable to deny that these things HAVE happened in the past. The concerned box of Remington solids is from 1990. So around 35 years ago.

P.S: I've gone on record countless times over the last few years mentioning on these forums how much I absolutely love Remington products (especially the 220Gr Core Lokt factory loads in .30-06 Springfield caliber). So I really have no personal agendas here.

I’m not being sarcastic, does it seem like I am being sarcastic? I thought I worded my response pretty plainly.
I know the whole 458 Boogy Man thing is and was going to show up and I don’t care about it because seriously so much of it is untrue and nothing but others parroting what they have head by someone else who heard it by someone else! Yes the 458 had some caking issues that in some instances severely impeded its performance but that issue was cleared up relatively early in its life! Should it have happened, no but it did and Winchester corrected it and 10’s of thousands of elephant can attest to this!
As far as industry standards go call Olin and talk to them! Call Barnes and talk to them! Call Federal and talk to them! Heck call one of the custom shops like Hendershots and talk to them! They will all tell you what I just have!

Ooor go on AH and claim that US ammunition manufacturers have poor quality control and over site by intermingling components to start some tin hat conspiracy theory SMH

 

[HankBuck]

Nope! Not buying what you are selling Sir!!!

First the US DOES make the best ammunition on the planet! Second they are strictly controlled between lots of manufacture because of massive insurance and government oversight over site!
So NO you cannot get intermixed bullets within the same lot! Not possible!!!
Every lot at the beginning of the run has strict controls of all the components - brass/primers/propellents/bullets that are all from the same lots and runs of each individual component respectively! Never do any of the manufactures mix and mingle components as the are not allowed to and any of the component runs that are over the loaded cartridge run is then sold as individual components from the manufacture…
There is strict government and insurance controls that do not allow them to mingle lots within a manufacturing run so NO the two separate bullets were not loaded and then boxed together, not possible!
Every component has a unique lot number and every loaded cartridge run has a unique lot number. If a manufacturer of any ammunition here in the US does not follow these standards they would lose both their licensing and insurance to manufacture ammunition and would probably be fined severely!

@CZDiesel - I agree with some of your points but when you think about how effective Corporate & Government controls are - think about Medications, Baby Formula, automobile manufacturers and everything else that “somehow” got screwed up during the manufacturing process and resulted in a significant problem…..I just don’t have the complete confidence that You do that what Hunter Habib claims isn’t possible - maybe not a common problem - but certainly possible.

 

[grand veneur]

But there is no reason to blame only the American companies. Other manufacturers worldwide and Europeans also, can make mistakes.

 

[CZDiesel]

@CZDiesel - I agree with some of your points but when you think about how effective Corporate & Government controls are - think about Medications, Baby Formula, automobile manufacturers and everything else that “somehow” got screwed up during the manufacturing process and resulted in a significant problem…..I just don’t have the complete confidence that You do that what Hunter Habib claims isn’t possible - maybe not a common problem - but certainly possible.

Not me me, because it’s not like baby formula. It’s much more stringent. Bullets that are selected for a load lot come from the same bullet lot. There isn’t a way that a steel jacketed bullet that was made nowhere near the same time as a copper jacketed bullet could get into that lot.
It’s akin to saying different powders were loaded into the same lot so you have all of a sudden just one round loaded with a pistol powder and all the rest with a rifle powder. When you are talking about nitrocellulose products they don’t mess around! And you can thank careless pharmacy employees or Chinese pharmaceutical manufacturers for the poor prescriptions

 

[HankBuck]

It’s not about looking the same it’s about when the manufacturers start a run of ammunition they are stringent that the whole run is using the same lot numbers of each component, another words each component was manufactured to the same design and standard and at the same time in the same run. That way if there is a failure when in public use they can trace down the lot numbers and look to see where and how the failure occurred. If they intermingled lots then they have no way to credibly identify how the failure occurred and they would be 100% liable and would in some cases open themselves up to massive law suits! They would and never do this! The industry is to regulated and the litigious ramifications are way to steep for them and their insurance companies…

I’m not being sarcastic, does it seem like I am being sarcastic? I thought I worded my response pretty plainly.
I know the whole 458 Boogy Man thing is and was going to show up and I don’t care about it because seriously so much of it is untrue and nothing but others parroting what they have head by someone else who heard it by someone else! Yes the 458 had some caking issues that in some instances severely impeded its performance but that issue was cleared up relatively early in its life! Should it have happened, no but it did and Winchester corrected it and 10’s of thousands of elephant can attest to this!
As far as industry standards go call Olin and talk to them! Call Barnes and talk to them! Call Federal and talk to them! Heck call one of the custom shops like Hendershots and talk to them! They will all tell you what I just have!

Ooor go on AH and claim that US ammunition manufacturers have poor quality control and over site by intermingling components to start some tin hat conspiracy theory SMH

@CZDiesel - I get your point, (and Your details & reasons for making it) - you seem to be taking this personally and attacking vs discussing or debating? I didn’t see anything in previous Posts to turn this into an argument - either way I’ve enjoyed reading some of the experiences of others and unusual things they’ve encountered.

 

[HankBuck]

Not me me, because it’s not like baby formula. It’s much more stringent. Bullets that are selected for a load lot come from the same bullet lot. There isn’t a way that a steel jacketed bullet that was made nowhere near the same time as a copper jacketed bullet could get into that lot.
It’s akin to saying different powders were loaded into the same lot so you have all of a sudden just one round loaded with a pistol powder and all the rest with a rifle powder. When you are talking about nitrocellulose products they don’t mess around! And you can thank careless pharmacy employees or Chinese pharmaceutical manufacturers for the poor prescriptions

@CZDiesel - you know much more about Ammunition manufacturing then Me — but doubt you’re an expert on Baby Formula too and Not on Automobile manufacturing either — anything made by Humans can get screwed up and the “ways” that can happen are ENDLESS (including deliberate actions taken by a disgruntled employee). No one has claimed or even implied this ammo error occurred on a widespread or regular basis…..but we are getting into a pointless tit-tat post and unlikely to change anyone’s opinion at this point…Time for a few BEERS !

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Not me me, because it’s not like baby formula. It’s much more stringent. Bullets that are selected for a load lot come from the same bullet lot. There isn’t a way that a steel jacketed bullet that was made nowhere near the same time as a copper jacketed bullet could get into that lot.
It’s akin to saying different powders were loaded into the same lot so you have all of a sudden just one round loaded with a pistol powder and all the rest with a rifle powder. When you are talking about nitrocellulose products they don’t mess around! And you can thank careless pharmacy employees or Chinese pharmaceutical manufacturers for the poor prescriptions

Mr. Diesel,

The phenomenon with Winchester .458 Magnum ammunition boxes containing some rounds loaded with ball powder and some rounds loaded with extruded powder... continued into the 1980s. Majority of those rounds did succeed in downing elephant & other big game. But that does not change the fact that cartridges from the same boxes were sometimes being loaded with different propellants.

I don't doubt what you're saying. That must be the official policy of USA based ammunition manufacturers. And obviously, currently manufactured ammunition is produced to far more stringent standards than ammunition from the 1980s-1990s. But in the past, these problems did exist. And regardless of what you think about my credibility, I doubt that people like Don Heath & Terry Irwin (among others such as the entire Rhodesian & Tanzanian game departments) would also be lying.

This box of Remington ammunition is from 1990. Remington was using Hornady steel jacketed FMJ solids to load their .375 Holland & Holland Magnum ammuni from 1982-1989. It's entirely possible (regardless of how uncommon the phonomenon may appear to be) that during a 1990 run of loading ammunition... Remington was using some projectiles from an old stock of Hornady steel jacketed bullets made before 1989. I'm a hunter, not an industrialist. So I don't know.

It must be borne in mind that Remington was not manufacturing these bullets in-house. They were sourcing them from Hornady (who shifted from copper to steel jackets in 1990). And Remington ceased to load solid ammunition for the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum altogether in 1994. It's entirely possible that Remington did not themselves know that Hornady altered the jacket component of their solids after 1989. It also must be borne in mind that Remington was going through countless financial difficulties during this time, so perhaps things were not always running the way that they were officially supposed to.

I'm sorry that you feel the way that you do. But I have no motivation to start any "Conspiracy Theories". Especially over a box of ammunition which has been discontinued now for roughly 30 years. I shared an observation of mine on an online hunting forum (like I have been doing with all sorts of bullets for the last five years since I've been a member of these forums). There is no need to accuse me of trying to start anything.

I try to be legitimately courteous towards everybody whom I interact with on these forums. And I think that with you, I have been very patient & civilized.

 

[coreydb]

........man, just don't use 'em. If you do, be real selective. I have a similar package of ammo manufactured during the 1940s......strictly nostalgia for me.

 

[Flbt]

Nope! Not buying what you are selling Sir!!!

First the US DOES make the best ammunition on the planet! Second they are strictly controlled between lots of manufacture because of massive insurance and government oversight over site!
So NO you cannot get intermixed bullets within the same lot! Not possible!!!
Every lot at the beginning of the run has strict controls of all the components - brass/primers/propellents/bullets that are all from the same lots and runs of each individual component respectively! Never do any of the manufactures mix and mingle components as the are not allowed to and any of the component runs that are over the loaded cartridge run is then sold as individual components from the manufacture…
There is strict government and insurance controls that do not allow them to mingle lots within a manufacturing run so NO the two separate bullets were not loaded and then boxed together, not possible!
Every component has a unique lot number and every loaded cartridge run has a unique lot number. If a manufacturer of any ammunition here in the US does not follow these standards they would lose both their licensing and insurance to manufacture ammunition and would probably be fined severely!

I would not count on that
I have seen Winchester practice 350L that are supposed to be fmj have soft points in them.
A buddy got 4 boxes like that.
Told me he lucked out by there mistake
I ask how do you know the powder charge is right if the bullets are wrong.
He thought about it contact Winchester.
By phone and e-mail no response yet and it’s been since some time in January.

 

[Flbt]

It’s not about looking the same it’s about when the manufacturers start a run of ammunition they are stringent that the whole run is using the same lot numbers of each component, another words each component was manufactured to the same design and standard and at the same time in the same run. That way if there is a failure when in public use they can trace down the lot numbers and look to see where and how the failure occurred. If they intermingled lots then they have no way to credibly identify how the failure occurred and they would be 100% liable and would in some cases open themselves up to massive law suits! They would and never do this! The industry is to regulated and the litigious ramifications are way to steep for them and their insurance companies…

I’m not being sarcastic, does it seem like I am being sarcastic? I thought I worded my response pretty plainly.
I know the whole 458 Boogy Man thing is and was going to show up and I don’t care about it because seriously so much of it is untrue and nothing but others parroting what they have head by someone else who heard it by someone else! Yes the 458 had some caking issues that in some instances severely impeded its performance but that issue was cleared up relatively early in its life! Should it have happened, no but it did and Winchester corrected it and 10’s of thousands of elephant can attest to this!
As far as industry standards go call Olin and talk to them! Call Barnes and talk to them! Call Federal and talk to them! Heck call one of the custom shops like Hendershots and talk to them! They will all tell you what I just have!

Ooor go on AH and claim that US ammunition manufacturers have poor quality control and over site by intermingling components to start some tin hat conspiracy theory SMH

They can tell you the same thing that doesn’t stop mistakes.
I have 2 issues with federal
When the flight control wads on there turkey loads came out the 3 in 12 ga
The plastic was cut to long and jamed in a 3 in mosb. 500 and I got fmj 9 mm that did not have primer holes all the way in to the case.
Yea primer seated but the hole did not get to the powder.

Now federal did me good they payed for the Glock to go be checked by my gunsmith
And both times sent me a case of new ammo
For the truble
But mistakes do happen

 

[Flbt]

Not me me, because it’s not like baby formula. It’s much more stringent. Bullets that are selected for a load lot come from the same bullet lot. There isn’t a way that a steel jacketed bullet that was made nowhere near the same time as a copper jacketed bullet could get into that lot.
It’s akin to saying different powders were loaded into the same lot so you have all of a sudden just one round loaded with a pistol powder and all the rest with a rifle powder. When you are talking about nitrocellulose products they don’t mess around! And you can thank careless pharmacy employees or Chinese pharmaceutical manufacturers for the poor prescriptions

Look up ammo recall and see how effective there protocol is
There 10 different recalls on the first 2 things that come up
Including hornday 470 ne 500gr
There’s actually a lot more than I expected

 

[CZDiesel]

@CZDiesel - I get your point, (and Your details & reasons for making it) - you seem to be taking this personally and attacking vs discussing or debating? I didn’t see anything in previous Posts to turn this into an argument - either way I’ve enjoyed reading some of the experiences of others and unusual things they’ve encountered.

Not taking it personal, just trying to be analytical on the subject as it’s a huge piece of what we do…

 

[baxterb]

Not a metallurgist... but is it possible some steel jackets could be demagnetized during the swaging/forming phase?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Not a metallurgist... but is it possible some steel jackets could be demagnetized during the swaging/forming phase?

Not that I know of, baxterb.

 

[skydiver386]

To be fair, American ammo manufacturers go through feast and famine phases like no other on Earth.

Just one Jackwagon announces they are running for Political office and ammo sales go through the roof! Everyone stockpiles the things they believe will be in short supply, and manufacturing is forced to try to keep up with demand.

A few years later there's a glut in the market, people become finicky and manufacturing slows down.

Add to this fact that firearm and ammo manufacturers are often owned by investors that have no knowledge of guns or ammo. These "Educated" people often make huge mistakes in those board meetings. Read Roy Weatherby's book if you want several examples.

Now if you'll all excuse me I have some COVID toilet paper I need to put to good use.