Am I being silly?

[Hogpatrol]

@Kevin Peacocke , Just curious as to how the out of spec headspace tolerances were determined? Was there a chamber cast done and then measured against gauges? Also, what is the dimension just forward of the rim and total case length, both on fired new and fired reloads?

 

[PARA45]

@Kevin Peacocke, sir I believe you paid a pretty Penny for that VC, and I assume the importation hassle was not easy either. A gun manufacturer of the quality of VC should stand behind their product, and make it a priority to get your rifle fixed and back to you in the least amount of time. IMHO, a 1-2 year wait is ridiculous.

 

[DG Gunsmith]

I would suspect that it simply needs a Barrel Replacement... Depending if they practice GD&T or not, they make be able to simply ship you a new Barrel...?

 

[Hogpatrol]

Anyone thinking what I'm thinking? Three pages referring to a possible unsafe rifle and not a peep from the manufacturer. I know on other forums, a company will get wind of a problem and at least post they've contacted the person. Been on this rock a long time and this says reams about their customer service.

 

[DG Gunsmith]

To be fair, they may be closed for the Holidays...

 

[Hogpatrol]

To be fair, they may be closed for the Holidays...

Agree, that's possible. IIRC, the unions there are fairly powerful when it comes to down time.

 

[Shootist43]

Kevin, do you know anyone else that reloads for this caliber? If so, trying some of their reloads would sort out a couple things. If their reloads work just fine, the issue is probably your reloads. If they show the same failures, you have no choice but to get the rifle repaired by the manufacturer or one of their designees, at their expense of course.

 

[Foxi]

Problem is it has excess head spacing, the top barrel more than the bottom one, 24 thou and 12 thou respectively.

Kevin, could you please put this into simpler words. I'm having a hard time with the translation and don't get what's going on.
Thanks
Foxi
(a non English speaker)

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Hi Kevin. I was hoping you could clarify a few things. You said that factory ammo didn't split but that only the reloads had the problem. Likewise the action opening only happened when the cases split ie with the reloads. You also said the headspace was way out, 12 & 24 thou (and yes that is massive).

Did you measure check the headspace with guages or using cases, if cases, were they virginal or fired and resized?

Likewise, have you checked the headspace measurements of a factory round vs a fired case vs a resized case? A tool like the Hornady Headspace Comparator kit can be useful for this.

Where I am going with this is that given the time, costs and hassles involved in sending the gun back to VC, you need to eliminate all the ammo issues first. If the only cases giving problems are resized reloads it could be that the resizing die is faulty or needs adjustment to fit your individual rifle. A lot simpler and cheaper to fix.
ps. Are you using a 375 Flanged Magnum die or a 375 H&H die? (The only reason I ask is that I have heard some claim the cases to be identical bar for the rim. This is sufficiently incorrect to give problems.)

Hi Hunter 4752001,
Thanks for all the points, ill answer in line form:
We have no factory ammo, this is loads using new cases and woodleigh 300 grain bullets. The loader is meticulous, we referred to the computer model to check pressure was below 47000psi. Dopler or lazer chrono used.
Never happened on a first firing.
Yes action opens when case splits.
I believe gauges were used, but if it were cases it would have been new brass. The guy measuring is an expert.
Sizing dies are 375FL especially imported from the USA.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I know nothing about the import export laws where the OP lives, but if it is indeed a 1-2 year process for a repair, VC ought to consider making him a new rifle and simply replacing it if that's any faster and less time for him being without. Not that they care about my opinion, but it would be something I would inquire about if I was in the OPs shoes and a brand new rifle had such major issues...or propose a return and refund situation

I have formally contacted the dealer, they are contacting VC, lets see what happens.

 

[IvW]

Hi Hunter 4752001,
Thanks for all the points, ill answer in line form:
We have no factory ammo, this is loads using new cases and woodleigh 300 grain bullets. The loader is meticulous, we referred to the computer model to check pressure was below 47000psi. Dopler or lazer chrono used.
Never happened on a first firing.
Yes action opens when case splits.
I believe gauges were used, but if it were cases it would have been new brass. The guy measuring is an expert.
Sizing dies are 375FL especially imported from the USA.

Compare fired cases to full resized cases for bith barrels. Check the jump to the lands for the loaded rounds. Make 2 dummy rounds for this. I can pm you a easy way to do this yourself. If headspace is wrong jump may not be sufficient

 

[Jan Dumon]

Kevin , please send me a whattsapp. I would like to offer some good advise.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

On my understanding, flanged (rimmed) cartridges like the 375 Flanged Magnum headspace on the rim and not the shoulder. Kevin made no mention of popped or excessively flattened primers which suggest that rim recess dimension may be OK. (Still needs to be checked by someone with far more real knowledge than me). The position of the shoulder can be adjusted via backing off the resizing die. I know some rimmed designs were made with a deliberately long chamber to allow reloading in instances where dust/mud debris etc may have entered the chamber. (possibly important in the case of a Dangerous Game rifle or a combat rifle) Of course that was a practice predicated around the use of factory ammo only. I don't know if it is the case with the VC.

I know I'm showing my ignorance, but I would have thought that in Zimbabwe or South Africa, there would have been gunsmiths with a knowledge of double rifles and who would be able to at least diagnose the problem (even if they aren't VC authorised to do warranty repairs).

The primers look normal Hunter4752001. Our gun smith here in Zimbabwe is Roscoe Dickenson, he is world class. He diagnosed the problem immediately as excess head space, and he was surprised that the top and bottom barrel were different. I believe you can actually see it with the naked eye, but I am no expert. Ill try to get a good photo.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I have formally contacted the dealer, they are contacting VC, lets see what happens.

I want to make it clear that I am not casting aspersions upon VC. I personally dont believe the dealer ever contacted them when I reported the problem to them. I have now insisted they do so via an email, so we await the VC feedback.

 

[DG Gunsmith]

The primers look normal Hunter4752001. Our gun smith here in Zimbabwe is Roscoe Dickenson, he is world class. He diagnosed the problem immediately as excess head space, and he was surprised that the top and bottom barrel were different. I believe you can actually see it with the naked eye, but I am no expert. Ill try to get a good photo.

Aye, it the Headspace is off by that much, you should easily be able the see this with the Naked eye... Sounds like they reamed the Chamber too deep, perhaps?

 

[DG Gunsmith]

I want to make it clear that I am not casting aspersions upon VC. I personally dont believe the dealer ever contacted them when I reported the problem to them. I have now insisted they do so via an email, so we await the VC feedback.

You've been nothing but polite... You've spent a lot o' money on that Rifle... VC would be smart to repair or replace it for you, free o' charge, and expedite the process... You deserve nothing less... I really hope that they treat you right over this... You seem like a pretty decent guy, you deserve to have a 100% Reliable Rifle, for the money you've paid... Don't settle for anything less!

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Yes, that is exactly my take, I am not a gunsmity but a metallurgical engineer and it seems clear that the flange recesses are way too deep.

 

[DG Gunsmith]

Yes, that is exactly my take, I am not a gunsmity but a metallurgical engineer and it seems clear that the flange recesses are way too deep.

This makes complete sense... Aye, a Metallurgical Engineer, eh? I took 2 years o' Metallurgy in College... I really enjoyed that course...

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Yes I did buy it new in Johannesburg and then imported it to Zimbabwe, a huge exercise. I did report it to the gun shop there, but it seems the remedy will involve sending it back to France, ie re-exporting it from here to SA, then another permit to export it from there to France, then the same in reverse. Literally a 1 to 2 year exercise and I dont think I have the energy. I will nevertheless report it formally as I agree they need to know, but I am not holding my breath for a remedy. I am not angry with VC, they make excellent rifles, this was just a mistake I am sure.

If they sold a defective rifle, there should be nothing more to it than sending it to them and a wire transfer of your money back. Even if it was just a mistake, it was their mistake not yours. No way on god's green earth I would simply write it off.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Hi Kevin,

We have one client who has done two hunts with us with a defective VC over and under in .450-.400. It has one one barrel with a bent defective firing pin and I "believe" a oversize non bushed firing pin hole. Other than that it is one of the finest handling double I have ever handled and very accurate. He uses it as a single shot, what a shame.

What a shame if you have to ship it to France by way of SAA. When I had a "Premium" bolt rifle that was not reliable the Manufacture and a couple other people stated, "oh, just send it back". Sold it to someone who new the problem and could "live with it.

I think the Heym 89b is the way to go, but I would try to make the trip to Germany and get properly fitted.