Africa Hunting and a Marlin .444!

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Yes, there are a lot better cartridges for cape buffalo than the .444Marlin.
However, the 250 gr CEB Maximus at 2,500 fps would work.

@Brian
I think that a bit high in velocity for that bullet in a marlin lever action.
I had a 444 on an SMLE NO4 ACTION and that is a lot stronger than the marlin.
My top load gave the 265 grain FTX 2,450 fps and that is only with a 5 grain higher load than max.
This load was safe in my rifle only and I wouldn't reccomend it in any other rifle.
Bob

 

[Brian]

I have killed 2 cape buffalo with a 375HH, 300 grain solid NorthFork at 2,500 fps. and 3 with a 50-110 Winchester, 410 grain Raptor, Cutting Edge Bullets at about 1750fps.
The two bulls with the 375 were one shot kills, heart shots where the bull went 30 yds. Very satisfying performance.
Over the next 4 years I killed 3 cape buffalo with the 50-110 Winchester. I was impressed and a bit surprised how well these type of "blunt" bullets killed. All buffalo were killed at close range and were dead right there.

What I learned through my limited buffalo hunting and pretty extensive "armchair" research is,
-Sectional density is over rated for penetration on cape buffalo.
- Bullet design and construction is very important. On a solid bullet a flat meplate width of 67% of the bullet diameter gives the deepest, straightest penetration.
- The CEB Raptor kills very well too. It is like a solid with break away blades.
- Bullet diameter is a significant factor in terminal performance with the right bullet. I have killed 3 buffalo at close range with a .577NE, 700 grain cast bullets at a mere 1,700 fps. and one with a 700 grain Peregrine Bushmaster bullet at just 1,750 fps. Those big. slow, well designed bullets are amazing.

I hope you don't take this post as being about my buffalo hunting. It's about bullet terminal performance. The PH's with me on these kills were as surprised as I was.

My studies and experience change some of my concepts about terminal bullet performance.
I too used to be a proponent of sectional density. I now think that i SD is a secondary factor to bullet design and diameter, for cape buffalo. Just my point of view from limited experience.
Thanks for the posts. Brian

 

[Brian]

Bullet Make & Wt. (gr)		Powder Type		Charge (gr)		Muzzle Vel. (fps)		K. E. (ft-lbs)		Barrel Len. (in)						Owner
180 Sierra	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	42.2M​	​	2,400​	​	2,303​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
180 Sierra	​	IMR-4198​	​	51.4M​	​	2,500​	​	2,499​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Barnes	​	Hodgdon H-335​	​	58.5PM​	​	2,196​	​	2,142​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Barnes	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	52.0PM​	​	2,197​	​	2,144​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Barnes	​	Ramshot X-Terminator​	​	55.0PM​	​	2,199​	​	2,148​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	38.0M​	​	2,225​	​	2,199​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Barnes	​	Hodgdon H-322​	​	53.5PM​	​	2,241​	​	2,231​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	40.0M​	​	2,297​	​	2,344​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Barnes	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	50.0PM​	​	2,333​	​	2,418​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-110​	​	41.0​	​	2,362​	​	2,478​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	60.0CM​	​	2,563​	​	2,918​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	50.6​	​	2,565​	​	2,923​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-110​	​	47.1M​	​	2,613​	​	3,033​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-1680​	​	57.0FM​	​	2,730​	​	3,311​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	57.8M​	​	2,851​	​	3,611​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
210 Sierra	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	42.6M​	​	2,300​	​	2,467​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
210 Sierra	​	IMR-4198​	​	49.7M​	​	2,400​	​	2,687​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
215	​	Alliant/Herc Unique​	​	18.0M​	​	1,735​	​	1,437​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
220 Lehigh Defe…	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	48.0​	​	2,268​	​	2,514​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
220 Lehigh Defe…	​	IMR-4198​	​	44.0​	​	2,295​	​	2,574​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
220 Lehigh Defe…	​	Accurate AA-1680​	​	48.0​	​	2,298​	​	2,580​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
220 Lehigh Defe…	​	Hodgdon H-4198​	​	47.0​	​	2,327​	​	2,646​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
225 Barnes	​	Hodgdon H-335​	​	57.0PM​	​	2,106​	​	2,216​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
225 Barnes	​	Hodgdon H-322​	​	51.5PM​	​	2,115​	​	2,235​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
225 Barnes	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	50.5PM​	​	2,119​	​	2,244​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
225 Barnes	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	48.0PM​	​	2,209​	​	2,439​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
225 Northfork	​	IMR-4198​	​	44.0FM​	​	2,295​	​	2,632​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
225 Northfork	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	48.0FM​	​	2,298​	​	2,639​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
225 Northfork	​	Accurate AA-1680​	​	48.0M​	​	2,313​	​	2,674​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
225 Northfork	​	Hodgdon H-4198​	​	47.0FM​	​	2,358​	​	2,779​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
225 Speer	​	IMR-4198​	​	49.0CM​	​	2,409​	​	2,900​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Cast	​	Alliant/Herc 2400​	​	22.0​	​	1,725​	​	1,586​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Speer	​	Alliant/Herc 2400​	​	25.0​	​	1,730​	​	1,595​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4350​	​	55.5C​	​	1,775​	​	1,679​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4227​	​	32.5​	​	2,030​	​	2,197​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR SR-4759​	​	33.0​	​	2,055​	​	2,251​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4064​	​	54.5C​	​	2,055​	​	2,251​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Hodgdon H-4895​	​	53.0C​	​	2,069​	​	2,282​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Cast	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	42.5​	​	2,080​	​	2,306​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4320​	​	56.0C​	​	2,125​	​	2,407​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	40.3M​	​	2,150​	​	2,464​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-3031​	​	54.5C​	​	2,175​	​	2,522​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Hodgdon H-322​	​	52.0C​	​	2,185​	​	2,545​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4895​	​	56.0C​	​	2,200​	​	2,580​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Hodgdon H-335​	​	56.0​	​	2,222​	​	2,632​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Hodgdon Benchmark​	​	55.0C​	​	2,234​	​	2,660​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	44.9​	​	2,243​	​	2,682​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	49.8​	​	2,286​	​	2,786​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	IMR-4198​	​	47.9M​	​	2,300​	​	2,820​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Accurate AA-2230​	​	57.0CM​	​	2,320​	​	2,869​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4198​	​	47.0​	​	2,335​	​	2,907​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4198​	​	47.0CM​	​	2,341​	​	2,921​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Speer	​	Winchester 748​	​	59.0M​	​	2,358​	​	2,964​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	55.0CM​	​	2,359​	​	2,967​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Speer	​	IMR-3031​	​	57.0M​	​	2,392​	​	3,050​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Speer	​	IMR-4198​	​	47.0M​	​	2,393​	​	3,053​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Speer	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	51.0​	​	2,400​	​	3,071​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Hodgdon H-4198​	​	49.2C​	​	2,499​	​	3,329​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	56.8M​	​	2,558​	​	3,488​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	53.0M​	​	2,560​	​	3,494​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
250	​	Alliant/Herc Unique​	​	17.0M​	​	1,590​	​	1,404​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
250 Lehigh Defe…	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	36.0​	​	1,821​	​	1,841​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
250 Lehigh Defe…	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	47.0​	​	1,953​	​	2,118​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
250 Lehigh Defe…	​	Accurate LT30​	​	46.0​	​	2,032​	​	2,293​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
250 Lehigh Defe…	​	IMR-4198​	​	43.0​	​	2,053​	​	2,340​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
250 Lehigh Defe…	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	47.0​	​	2,074​	​	2,389​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
250 Nosler	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	46.0M​	​	2,233​	​	2,769​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
250 Nosler	​	Hodgdon H-322​	​	52.0M​	​	2,240​	​	2,786​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
250 Nosler	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	51.0M​	​	2,289​	​	2,910​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Alliant/Herc 2400​	​	25.0​	​	1,715​	​	1,731​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon H-335​	​	51.0​	​	1,960​	​	2,261​	​	18.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	hunter1967​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon H-4895​	​	53.0C​	​	2,080​	​	2,547​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	43.5​	​	2,129​	​	2,668​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon Benchmark​	​	53.0C​	​	2,139​	​	2,693​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	47.7​	​	2,157​	​	2,739​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon H-322​	​	52.0C​	​	2,164​	​	2,756​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon H-335​	​	56.0​	​	2,187​	​	2,815​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-2230​	​	55.0CM​	​	2,206​	​	2,864​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	47.0​	​	2,215​	​	2,888​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-2460​	​	56.0CM​	​	2,217​	​	2,893​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	52.0M​	​	2,221​	​	2,904​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
265	​	IMR-4198​	​	45.0M​	​	2,223​	​	2,909​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon H-4198​	​	47.0​	​	2,273​	​	3,041​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	IMR-4198​	​	48.0FM​	​	2,300​	​	3,114​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	davisrs41​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	53.2M​	​	2,401​	​	3,393​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	50.5M​	​	2,415​	​	3,433​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
270 Speer																			Y

Bob, Yes I listed a pretty hot load. The above chart is from AmmoGuide.

 

[Brian]

I got a lot out of this /. /

 

[Brian]

This site is very interesting. The design of the Cutting Edge Bullets and Northfork solid bullets are a result of several years of prudent research an hundreds of buffalo kills in Africa and Australia.
Enjoy, Brian

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bullet Make & Wt. (gr)		Powder Type		Charge (gr)		Muzzle Vel. (fps)		K. E. (ft-lbs)		Barrel Len. (in)						Owner
180 Sierra	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	42.2M​	​	2,400​	​	2,303​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
180 Sierra	​	IMR-4198​	​	51.4M​	​	2,500​	​	2,499​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Barnes	​	Hodgdon H-335​	​	58.5PM​	​	2,196​	​	2,142​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Barnes	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	52.0PM​	​	2,197​	​	2,144​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Barnes	​	Ramshot X-Terminator​	​	55.0PM​	​	2,199​	​	2,148​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	38.0M​	​	2,225​	​	2,199​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Barnes	​	Hodgdon H-322​	​	53.5PM​	​	2,241​	​	2,231​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	40.0M​	​	2,297​	​	2,344​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Barnes	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	50.0PM​	​	2,333​	​	2,418​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-110​	​	41.0​	​	2,362​	​	2,478​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	60.0CM​	​	2,563​	​	2,918​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	50.6​	​	2,565​	​	2,923​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-110​	​	47.1M​	​	2,613​	​	3,033​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-1680​	​	57.0FM​	​	2,730​	​	3,311​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
200 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	57.8M​	​	2,851​	​	3,611​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
210 Sierra	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	42.6M​	​	2,300​	​	2,467​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
210 Sierra	​	IMR-4198​	​	49.7M​	​	2,400​	​	2,687​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
215	​	Alliant/Herc Unique​	​	18.0M​	​	1,735​	​	1,437​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
220 Lehigh Defe…	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	48.0​	​	2,268​	​	2,514​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
220 Lehigh Defe…	​	IMR-4198​	​	44.0​	​	2,295​	​	2,574​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
220 Lehigh Defe…	​	Accurate AA-1680​	​	48.0​	​	2,298​	​	2,580​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
220 Lehigh Defe…	​	Hodgdon H-4198​	​	47.0​	​	2,327​	​	2,646​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
225 Barnes	​	Hodgdon H-335​	​	57.0PM​	​	2,106​	​	2,216​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
225 Barnes	​	Hodgdon H-322​	​	51.5PM​	​	2,115​	​	2,235​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
225 Barnes	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	50.5PM​	​	2,119​	​	2,244​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
225 Barnes	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	48.0PM​	​	2,209​	​	2,439​	​	15.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
225 Northfork	​	IMR-4198​	​	44.0FM​	​	2,295​	​	2,632​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
225 Northfork	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	48.0FM​	​	2,298​	​	2,639​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
225 Northfork	​	Accurate AA-1680​	​	48.0M​	​	2,313​	​	2,674​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
225 Northfork	​	Hodgdon H-4198​	​	47.0FM​	​	2,358​	​	2,779​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
225 Speer	​	IMR-4198​	​	49.0CM​	​	2,409​	​	2,900​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Cast	​	Alliant/Herc 2400​	​	22.0​	​	1,725​	​	1,586​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Speer	​	Alliant/Herc 2400​	​	25.0​	​	1,730​	​	1,595​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4350​	​	55.5C​	​	1,775​	​	1,679​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4227​	​	32.5​	​	2,030​	​	2,197​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR SR-4759​	​	33.0​	​	2,055​	​	2,251​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4064​	​	54.5C​	​	2,055​	​	2,251​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Hodgdon H-4895​	​	53.0C​	​	2,069​	​	2,282​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Cast	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	42.5​	​	2,080​	​	2,306​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4320​	​	56.0C​	​	2,125​	​	2,407​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	40.3M​	​	2,150​	​	2,464​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-3031​	​	54.5C​	​	2,175​	​	2,522​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Hodgdon H-322​	​	52.0C​	​	2,185​	​	2,545​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4895​	​	56.0C​	​	2,200​	​	2,580​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Hodgdon H-335​	​	56.0​	​	2,222​	​	2,632​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Hodgdon Benchmark​	​	55.0C​	​	2,234​	​	2,660​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	44.9​	​	2,243​	​	2,682​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	49.8​	​	2,286​	​	2,786​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	IMR-4198​	​	47.9M​	​	2,300​	​	2,820​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Accurate AA-2230​	​	57.0CM​	​	2,320​	​	2,869​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4198​	​	47.0​	​	2,335​	​	2,907​	​	25.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Remington	​	IMR-4198​	​	47.0CM​	​	2,341​	​	2,921​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Speer	​	Winchester 748​	​	59.0M​	​	2,358​	​	2,964​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	55.0CM​	​	2,359​	​	2,967​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Speer	​	IMR-3031​	​	57.0M​	​	2,392​	​	3,050​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Speer	​	IMR-4198​	​	47.0M​	​	2,393​	​	3,053​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
240 Speer	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	51.0​	​	2,400​	​	3,071​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Sierra	​	Hodgdon H-4198​	​	49.2C​	​	2,499​	​	3,329​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	56.8M​	​	2,558​	​	3,488​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
240 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	53.0M​	​	2,560​	​	3,494​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
250	​	Alliant/Herc Unique​	​	17.0M​	​	1,590​	​	1,404​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
250 Lehigh Defe…	​	Accurate AA-5744​	​	36.0​	​	1,821​	​	1,841​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
250 Lehigh Defe…	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	47.0​	​	1,953​	​	2,118​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
250 Lehigh Defe…	​	Accurate LT30​	​	46.0​	​	2,032​	​	2,293​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
250 Lehigh Defe…	​	IMR-4198​	​	43.0​	​	2,053​	​	2,340​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
250 Lehigh Defe…	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	47.0​	​	2,074​	​	2,389​	​	20.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	cwhuntsalot​	​	​	​
250 Nosler	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	46.0M​	​	2,233​	​	2,769​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
250 Nosler	​	Hodgdon H-322​	​	52.0M​	​	2,240​	​	2,786​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
250 Nosler	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	51.0M​	​	2,289​	​	2,910​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Alliant/Herc 2400​	​	25.0​	​	1,715​	​	1,731​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon H-335​	​	51.0​	​	1,960​	​	2,261​	​	18.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	hunter1967​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon H-4895​	​	53.0C​	​	2,080​	​	2,547​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	43.5​	​	2,129​	​	2,668​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon Benchmark​	​	53.0C​	​	2,139​	​	2,693​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	47.7​	​	2,157​	​	2,739​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon H-322​	​	52.0C​	​	2,164​	​	2,756​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon H-335​	​	56.0​	​	2,187​	​	2,815​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-2230​	​	55.0CM​	​	2,206​	​	2,864​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Alliant/Herc Reloder-7​	​	47.0​	​	2,215​	​	2,888​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-2460​	​	56.0CM​	​	2,217​	​	2,893​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Accurate AA-2015​	​	52.0M​	​	2,221​	​	2,904​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
265	​	IMR-4198​	​	45.0M​	​	2,223​	​	2,909​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	stigma​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Hodgdon H-4198​	​	47.0​	​	2,273​	​	3,041​	​	24.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	IMR-4198​	​	48.0FM​	​	2,300​	​	3,114​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	davisrs41​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-130​	​	53.2M​	​	2,401​	​	3,393​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
265 Hornady	​	Vihtavuori N-120​	​	50.5M​	​	2,415​	​	3,433​	​	22.0​	​	View​	​	​	​	ammoguide​	​	​	​
270 Speer																			Y

Bob, Yes I listed a pretty hot load. The above chart is from AmmoGuide.

@Brian
I'm not saying the 444 can't be given a boot just that the marlin lever action is the limiting factor. On the No4 SMLE it could be boosted quite well but the case capacity limits things as well. A 320 grain hardcastt that can be seated out to increase case capacity would be a different story at 2,000 fps.
Bob

 

[ChrisG]

I am actually of the opposite mentality when it comes to low SD bullets and high speed. I have never owned a .444 but I have seen what a hard cast 310 grain lee GC-WFN will do out of a 16" carbine. At 1,300fps, I found one fter punching through 12" of oak firewood. Another cut a 7" channel through a downed birch tree like a chainsaw, and still buried itself in the ground another 8". Don't try to push them super fast and hard cast WFN bullets do great at punching long, deep, straight holes.

That said, as advised above, I wouldnt try to use the .444 on dangerous game. Not because I don't think it will kill a buffalo or a lion (with a well placed shot and a good solid, I have no doubt it will penetrate sufficiently), but because the margin of error is almost nonexistent. That would be an awful expensive couple of drops of blood on an animal that most people get one or maybe two chances to hunt in a lifetime. If it were me (and I have pet cartridges/guns same as everyone else), and I was paying to hunt dangerous game, I'd be stacking as many cards in my favor as I could...

Now... someone with $35M in the bank may not think much of a lost $30k lion... but I wouldn't be able to take a hit like that.

 

[Brian]

"This site is very interesting"
Oops, I for got to give you the name of the site.
Check out B & M Rifles and Cartridges.

 

[Brian]

About two years ago I wrote hunting/bullet report here in Africahunting.com. The post is called "Get Close and Use a Good Bullet." It has some details about the terminal performance of the CEB Raptor and the Peregrine BushMaster bullets on cape buffalo. It adds a bit to this excellent discussion.

 

[IvW]

Great pig caliber

 

[Red Leg]

Great pig caliber

My thought exactly.

I have killed 2 cape buffalo with a 375HH, 300 grain solid NorthFork at 2,500 fps. and 3 with a 50-110 Winchester, 410 grain Raptor, Cutting Edge Bullets at about 1750fps.
The two bulls with the 375 were one shot kills, heart shots where the bull went 30 yds. Very satisfying performance.
Over the next 4 years I killed 3 cape buffalo with the 50-110 Winchester. I was impressed and a bit surprised how well these type of "blunt" bullets killed. All buffalo were killed at close range and were dead right there.

What I learned through my limited buffalo hunting and pretty extensive "armchair" research is,
-Sectional density is over rated for penetration on cape buffalo.
- Bullet design and construction is very important. On a solid bullet a flat meplate width of 67% of the bullet diameter gives the deepest, straightest penetration.
- The CEB Raptor kills very well too. It is like a solid with break away blades.
- Bullet diameter is a significant factor in terminal performance with the right bullet. I have killed 3 buffalo at close range with a .577NE, 700 grain cast bullets at a mere 1,700 fps. and one with a 700 grain Peregrine Bushmaster bullet at just 1,750 fps. Those big. slow, well designed bullets are amazing.

I hope you don't take this post as being about my buffalo hunting. It's about bullet terminal performance. The PH's with me on these kills were as surprised as I was.

My studies and experience change some of my concepts about terminal bullet performance.
I too used to be a proponent of sectional density. I now think that i SD is a secondary factor to bullet design and diameter, for cape buffalo. Just my point of view from limited experience.
Thanks for the posts. Brian

My conclusions, based upon my experience, is that a "good" bullet is a potential calamity when used on a large dangerous game animal if it has inadequate sectional density. I would note your .577 with 700 gr bullets is achieving a SD of around .300. Not a bad SD target for any bullet that might be used on DG - almost identical to a 300 gr .375. Probably had some small bearing on why they both worked so well? I have not run the numbers on the SD of your 410 gr 50 caliber loading.

One of the long time members on this site once noted that is was probably possible to kill a cape buffalo with a frozen herring - but why would anyone want to try.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

My thought exactly.

My conclusions, based upon my experience, is that a "good" bullet is a potential calamity when used on a large dangerous game animal if it has inadequate sectional density. I would note your .577 with 700 gr bullets is achieving a SD of around .300. Not a bad SD target for any bullet that might be used on DG - almost identical to a 300 gr .375. Probably had some small bearing on why they both worked so well? I have not run the numbers on the SD of your 410 gr 50 caliber loading.

One of the long time members on this site once noted that is was probably possible to kill a cape buffalo with a frozen herring - but why would anyone want to try.

@Red Leg
SD alters as soon as the bullet starts to expand on a game animal. Let us say you have a 375 that has expanded to .600 surely a 60 cal bullet weighing 300 grains has a lower SD than a hard cast 300 grain non expanding 44 cal bullet.
Yes SD does have a bearing on how a bullet works but it is more complicated than people think.
Just my thoughts.
Bob

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg
SD alters as soon as the bullet starts to expand on a game animal. Let us say you have a 375 that has expanded to .600 surely a 60 cal bullet weighing 300 grains has a lower SD than a hard cast 300 grain non expanding 44 cal bullet.
Yes SD does have a bearing on how a bullet works but it is more complicated than people think.
Just my thoughts.
Bob

Of course it is Bob. But a solid .375 will likely out penetrate a 300 gr .44 solid by a considerable margin - particularly at dramatically different velocities. I know which I would use to brain an elephant. And as far as SP's go, I would again much prefer a true controlled expansion 300 gr Swift A-Frame, TSX, or Berger than any hard lead 300 gr sub - 2000 fps forty.

Look, if a truly experienced hunter wants to use such a marginal rifle and loading to hunt buffalo, then fine. We have several here on our forum who have done just that successfully. He is likely also prepared to live with the financial or ethical issues if a bull is lost or the tracker is stomped. However, I worry more about the inexperienced dangerous game hunter who so often seems enamored by these new calibers (or new renditions of old ones) - most of which are no more effective than the old .500 BP Express. He can't wait to take his .50 (name of manufacturer) Romping Stomper revolver/ lever action/ single shot / whatever with shrapnel generating bullet or tire weight solid to take on his first cape buffalo. That is begging, not merely asking, for trouble.

 

[ChrisG]

Of course it is Bob. But a solid .375 will likely out penetrate a 300 gr .44 solid by a considerable margin - particularly at dramatically different velocities. I know which I would use to brain an elephant. And as far as SP's go, I would again much prefer a true controlled expansion 300 gr Swift A-Frame, TSX, or Berger than any hard lead 300 gr sub - 2000 fps forty.

Look, if a truly experienced hunter wants to use such a marginal rifle and loading to hunt buffalo, then fine. We have several here on our forum who have done just that successfully. He is likely also prepared to live with the financial or ethical issues if a bull is lost or the tracker is stomped. However, I worry more about the inexperienced dangerous game hunter who so often seems enamored by these new calibers, most of which are no more effective than the old .500 BP Express. He can't wait to take his .50 (name of manufacturer) Romping Stomper revolver/ lever action/ single shot / whatever with shrapnel generating bullet to take on his first cape buffalo. That is begging, not merely asking, for trouble.

I also tend to find that a lot of people who advocate these rounds as being sufficient, are also people who have never hunted buffalo or any dangerous game for that matter. I am one of those who have never hunted buffalo, but I adhere to established norms and the logic of those with experience. I mean... the math works out. When 200 people who have hunted a particular dangerous animal (some professionally guiding) say caliber "x" is what it is advised you use, and caliber "y" is not. Then 10 people, some of whom haven't hunted said animal, or hunted at all... (not so much here but that is prevalent elsewhere on the internet) rabidly advocate that caliber "z" is "more than adequate!" Im gonna say the established norm is the establishment for a reason.

Then again... I am probably just one of those priggish snobs who thinks that the cost of a rifle and its ammunition equates to its utility against dangerous game. That's why everyone advocates against a $500 lever action, .357 carbine to be used against charging lions. Its because the .357 is altogether too common and cheap and we are a bunch of hoyty toyty hunters who drink Courvoisier around the fire, wearing pith helmets and knee-high riding boots while laughing about the plight of the peasants...

Or those calibers have proven they aren't as reliable as established calibers for big game...

 

[sestoppelman]

My dad was a fan of all things Marlin including the .444 which he felt was a damned adequate deer or even elk round.
Not sure what CRS uses for his 400 gr .405 load but would venture it outclasses the best .444 load ever developed.
I took a Win 95 in .405 to Africa a few years ago and while I didnt connect on the main quarry, eland, I did pick up off the ground and dramatically body slam a large nyala with a 300 gr Barnes Triple Shock. My load was nothing extraordinary but IIRC the energy was something well over 3000 ft/lbs.
I would not have been afraid to tackle a buffalo with that load using that bullet.
The .405 Win case has about a 7 grain advantage in capacity over the Marlin so it would have the edge.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Of course it is Bob. But a solid .375 will likely out penetrate a 300 gr .44 solid by a considerable margin - particularly at dramatically different velocities. I know which I would use to brain an elephant. And as far as SP's go, I would again much prefer a true controlled expansion 300 gr Swift A-Frame, TSX, or Berger than any hard lead 300 gr sub - 2000 fps forty.

Look, if a truly experienced hunter wants to use such a marginal rifle and loading to hunt buffalo, then fine. We have several here on our forum who have done just that successfully. He is likely also prepared to live with the financial or ethical issues if a bull is lost or the tracker is stomped. However, I worry more about the inexperienced dangerous game hunter who so often seems enamored by these new calibers (or new renditions of old ones) - most of which are no more effective than the old .500 BP Express. He can't wait to take his .50 (name of manufacturer) Romping Stomper revolver/ lever action/ single shot / whatever with shrapnel generating bullet or tire weight solid to take on his first cape buffalo. That is begging, not merely asking, for trouble.

@Red Leg
Everything you said is 100% correct.
If the 444 marlin with a 300 grain solid( hard cast) can be loaded to 2,200 fps as I could in MY 444 that is a different story and the 320 grain could be loaded to 2,000+ fps.
Unfortunately the marlin couldn't handle theses loads in any way . My 444 wasn't limited by action strength or cartridge length so I could do more with it.
Under absolute ideal conditions it is possible to do it but if something goes wrong I would want better .
Bob

 

[Brian]

My favourite DG Rifle is not my Winchester 375HH nor my CZ 458 Lott, It is my bubba built $200.00 H&R , NEF 10 ga. with two big bore switch barrels. My CEB hand loads for an African hunt cost more than my rifle!

I sure get some weird looks and snorts when I drag my rifle out for the first time in camp. Then I pull out a plug of chewing tobacco and take good chaw. ( I am an old white haired guy who looks like a real hillbilly.)
After this first impression I give them of what a classy client I am, it gets kinda quiet for a while. On a DG hunt, I don't take a sling or binoculars. Just more crap to get in the way.
Sometimes they politely ask me, "Mr. Gallup sir, did bring your binoculars?" or "Sir, do you not use a sling?" And I say, "Dankie Monier, no." They blink.
It all sorts out when the first buffalo is on the ground. They are are usually visibly relieved.

 

[Brian]

Do you think that this 375gr. CEB Solid will work on cape buffalo in my 500 S&W barrel? I may use it as well on cape buffalo in 2022. Good idea, right? Chuckle.

 

[hawkeyesatx]

Here are some articles on the .444 that might explain it better, and clear the air a little more.

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/444-marlin

.444 Marlin

History, performance, factory and hand load data

www.ballisticstudies.com

I, for one, realize that the .444 Marlin has had a bad reputation from unscrupulous hunters who think that short, 240 gr .44 Mag bullets are the best thing since sliced bread. I can honestly say, that those who use the .44 Mag bullets are destined for heartache and sorrow when it comes to hunting heavier game than the average deer.
Properly hand loaded, with heavier projectiles, and longer projectiles, that increase the SD of the .430 caliber are well suited to my Marlin 1895, with 1 in 20 inch Ballard Rifling. It will handle the longer, heavier bullets, from 300 gr to 400 gr with aplomb.
It will also shoot the same bullet weights in the .45-70 at the same velocities as the .45-70, if not a little faster.
For me, I am an ethical hunter. With saying that, I wouldn’t want my quarry to suffer unnecessarily.
So for me, going after the bigger animals, whether it be here in North America, or Africa, excluding Elephants, I would use the heavy for caliber hardcast 335 gr Bear Tooth gas check bullet, to 350 gr same bullet.
As what was said in The Ballistic Studies, what helps the newer rendition of the .444 Marlin chambering while using said heavyweight bullets, is the hydraulic effect of the speed of the bullet along with the frontal area of the bullet to create a 1.5 inch wound throughout a big animal.
I do know, from seeing my friend who uses his to hunt anything from mice to moose, that when he uses it within its limitations, and he shot a moose broadside, that when the moose was shot, it looked like it was hit on top of the head with a 25 pound sledge hammer. When we gutted the animal, the wound channel was excessive, and the bullet exited on the offside, and made a hole the size of 2 fists side by side. That was my fists, and I have big hands.
But, anyways, I digress.
Does any of this info change anyone else’s mind?


Hawk

 

[IvW]

No