Acceptable accuracy for Double Rifles

[Red Leg]

@One Day... and @Red Leg,

Great information!

For those new to the DR world, and I consider myself to still be after a little over a year of owning one, the regulation issue raises some questions. The big concern I had, with being incapable of being happy with any one bullet or load, was would I be able to develop a load that would shoot accurately that did not match the regulation load.

Fortunately with some good information from the rifle builder on powder and a little work on my part, I've developed a load using my favorite North Fork bullets. And I'm guessing a load with Woodleigh's is quite possible too.

So in my case I've got a .470NE which typically use 500gr bullets. Knowing what powder was used for regulation, and also using 500gr bullets even if not the same type, it seems like you SHOULD be able to develop a load and thus NOT require re-regulation of your rifle. Is this an accurate thing to say?

Probably

 

[CAustin]

ABSOLUTELY Phil!
The bottom line is that the bullets must leave the barrels at the exact time the barrels are pointing, one a a time, exactly at the point you intend to hit (drop being compensated for by the height of your front sight).
So, theoretically, there are any numbers of bullets and powders than will shoot perfectly well with your rifle the way it is assembled, i.e. without requiring re-regulation. The secret, as you have found out, is to go through a process of trials and errors so that the combination of powder type (i.e. burn rate); powder quantity (i.e. velocity); primer (i.e. ignition rate); bullet weight (i.e. inertia to overcome and momentum required); bullet bearing surface (i.e. resistance to propulsion) + if you really want a laundry list: bullet material; external temperature; your own shooting style; etc. etc. not to forget the alignment of the planets LOL, all end up producing that magic moment when the bullets exit the barrels at exactly the right time when the barrels are at exactly the right spot in their recoil.
A number of folks have developed an array of loads for their doubles, especially folks who shoot a .450 of one persuasion or another and who can select from the entire range of .458 slugs, that allow them to use their rifle from elephant at max power, down to driven wild board with "half" bullet weight and "half" powder charge (beware: one needs to use a filler for the rest of the case space in such case).
Not only you "should" but you "will". Just a question of trying all possible permutations. Hint: once you have the magic recipe, write it down

To your point about writing the recipe down.......
The book I’m reading presently, The Practical Guide to Reloading, by Nathan Foster strongly suggests that one keep an accurate journal detailing ones load development.

 

[Shootist43]

Ok this might be a little off topic, but it is still relevant. Charlie's 470 was regulated with Federal Premium pushing Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers. That bullet is supposedly being made available to the reloading public but Midway has them listed as "coming soon." Has anyone pulled one of these rounds to see how much powder that load contains? It would be extremely useful to know what powder they use but I doubt that info is available. However if we had the weight perhaps with a little "reverse engineering" via QuickLoad the type of powder might be able to be determined, that is if a canister powder and not a proprietary mix is used.

 

[Spooksar]

To your point about writing the recipe down.......
The book I’m reading presently, The Practical Guide to Reloading, by Nathan Foster strongly suggests that one keep an accurate journal detailing ones load development.

I’ve been reloading since 1972 and somewhere in a box, packed away I have a journal with all the loads, I loaded till the time I bought a computer.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Ok this might be a little off topic, but it is still relevant. Charlie's 470 was regulated with Federal Premium pushing Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers. That bullet is supposedly being made available to the reloading public but Midway has them listed as "coming soon." Has anyone pulled one of these rounds to see how much powder that load contains? It would be extremely useful to know what powder they use but I doubt that info is available. However if we had the weight perhaps with a little "reverse engineering" via QuickLoad the type of powder might be able to be determined, that is if a canister powder and not a proprietary mix is used.

Mine was regulated with IMR4831 but was informed by Butch that H4831 should work too. I went the H4831 route as I have a lot of it and it works great. My understanding is either of those is used quite a bit in regulation of the 470.

There was that other powder if used from IMR, can't remember which one now. @tarbe and @Bullthrower338 played with it too. It filled even more of the case and overall I think it worked well too, but the chrono showed goofy results and I think spooked us all away from it.

So sticking with the H4831. No filler required and velocity is where it should be.

 

[tarbe]

Mine was regulated with IMR4831 but was informed by Butch that H4831 should work too. I went the H4831 route as I have a lot of it and it works great. My understanding is either of those is used quite a bit in regulation of the 470.

There was that other powder if used from IMR, can't remember which one now. @tarbe and @Bullthrower338 played with it too. It filled even more of the case and overall I think it worked well too, but the chrono showed goofy results and I think spooked us all away from it.

So sticking with the H4831. No filler required and velocity is where it should be.

The other powder was IMR7977.

Velocity changes in two different rifles were non-linear and somewhat unpredictable.

Velocity changes with increasing charges were linear and predictable in my 450/400 Nitro.

 

[Bullthrower338]

Mine was regulated with IMR4831 but was informed by Butch that H4831 should work too. I went the H4831 route as I have a lot of it and it works great. My understanding is either of those is used quite a bit in regulation of the 470.

There was that other powder if used from IMR, can't remember which one now. @tarbe and @Bullthrower338 played with it too. It filled even more of the case and overall I think it worked well too, but the chrono showed goofy results and I think spooked us all away from it.

So sticking with the H4831. No filler required and velocity is where it should be.

I’m still on the IMR 7977 band wagon. Yes it has strange characteristics over a chronograph but I love the density and accuracy that I have seen from it.

 

[ve7poi]

Found out from Merkel USA that my 140 was built in 2003 and regulated with Federal Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers! Art and I will attempt to match that load. I have lots of work and practice to do.

Federal used reloader 15 mine likes 85gr. With foam filler wad or pillow ticking 5gr.
500 gr woodleigh at 55 meters got a group of 2left and 2right of sticks that had all 4 clustered together and touching.
I used a aimpoint H1 red dot and I doubt if I could ever do it again but I know the rifle will shoot if I do my part.
I had to lower sight settings and 6” down and 1/2”right to be on zero. Did the deed on buff in avatar wonderfully.

As a side effect this load 2150fps and seemed to kick a lot less.

 

[CAustin]

Mine was regulated with IMR4831 but was informed by Butch that H4831 should work too. I went the H4831 route as I have a lot of it and it works great. My understanding is either of those is used quite a bit in regulation of the 470.

There was that other powder if used from IMR, can't remember which one now. @tarbe and @Bullthrower338 played with it too. It filled even more of the case and overall I think it worked well too, but the chrono showed goofy results and I think spooked us all away from it.

So sticking with the H4831. No filler required and velocity is where it should be.

Thanks Phil. I have the H4831 ready to go.

 

[Spooksar]

Federal used reloader 15 mine likes 85gr. With foam filler wad or pillow ticking 5gr.
500 gr woodleigh at 55 meters got a group of 2left and 2right of sticks that had all 4 clustered together and touching.
I used a aimpoint H1 red dot and I doubt if I could ever do it again but I know the rifle will shoot if I do my part.
I had to lower sight settings and 6” down and 1/2”right to be on zero. Did the deed on buff in avatar wonderfully.

As a side effect this load 2150fps and seemed to kick a lot less.

Mine was regulated with the same load but I used 87gr for a 500gr solid.on my Elephant. I used the 85gr with soft points on 2 Buffalo

 

[ve7poi]

Spooksar originally gave this load and worked perfectly

 

[Shootist43]

ve7poi and or Spookstar, what Woodleigh bullet did you use? Were these loads chronographed? My reason for asking is that I cannot "duplicate" your results using QuickLoad. Believe me I fully realize that "software" cannot always predict the facts.

 

[Pondoro]

I have 2 double rifles, a ca.WW1 british .475NE and a Krieghoff .470NE..

I notice that the Krieghoff barrels are much thicker towards the muzzle than the brit....and it shoots more or less the same with Federal and Norma factory 500 grain Woody solids and my load wich is 105 grains Vithavouri N160 behind a 500 grainer...

N160 is a bit more slowburning than Reloader 15 (Vithavouri N150 is very similar..) and it fills up the cartridge better, hence no need for filler.. I have yet to crono this load but the felt recoil is heavier than ie. the Federal factory load. Another reloader got 2097fps from a Merkel .470 with 24" barrels with "my" reload...same barrel lenght as my K.hoff..

If I do my part all these loads regulate at ca. 2" at 45 meters...I cant shoot Africa sights better these days..

Krieghoffs are known for being forgiving to different ammo...do thicker steel towards the muzzle make heat/regulation a lesser problem..?

 

[Spooksar]

ve7poi and or Spookstar, what Woodleigh bullet did you use? Were these loads chronographed? My reason for asking is that I cannot "duplicate" your results using QuickLoad. Believe me I fully realize that "software" cannot always predict the facts.

Woodleigh Softpiont and solid. I’m getting 2199 FPS with the solid using 87 hrs. And 2050 with the Softpoint and 85 grs. The 2050 load didn’t meet the energy minimum that Namibia has in place that’s why I increased the load. My rifle actually shoots a little better with the faster load.

 

[ve7poi]

2150 with filler for woodleigh 500gr softs and using 87 for Barnes

 

[TRB]

I have experience only with black powder doubles. A Purdey ML, a H&H .450 BPE and a Belgium .450. while working up loads I had the same experience with all three: they started by printing crossed at 50 yds. and came together as I increased the powder charge. Accuracy with open sights and my 77 year old eyes is from 1" to 3" for 6 shot groups at 50 yds. As suggested, read Wright's book.

 

[RayAtkinson]

First you must find out which barrel shoots the WORST, that's the best you can expect with any double...end of that story.

So that is your goal..Most doubles come regulated to a certain load, so use that and be done with it...The world of the double has nothing to do with the bolt action repeater and working up loads..Find the regulated load and be done with it...the bullets should meet at 25 and 50 yards and close at 75 yards...I dont' accept the famous minute of grapefruit, I want about 2 inches at 50, I just might need to stick one of those big bullets in somethings eye to prevent bodily damage to myself...

the best way is to pick a bullet you like and its matching solid and have the gun re-regulated to your load, a little more expensive , but so is a safari..I used to have David Yale do this for me..but there are others such as Butch Searcy that can really regulate a double..

Regulation and sighting in is two different subjects, when sighting in a double all you need is a 3 corner file and lots of patience and care, and you only have a very small window of success, some times its best to order another higher or lower front sight..This can be accomplished sometimes by adding a grain or two more powder, or a grain or two less, to pull the shots together..I suggest sticking with Woodleighs.

Again, world of the double gun is a whole nuther ball game..