A5 16 ga project

[amschind]

To incorporate the detent pin assembly, the steel tube would need to be fairly thick, adding to the weight of the shotgun ... in the wrong place. I think I would try moving the detent pin assembly away from the magazine tube. Might be able to get it far enough from the steel tube but it would be visible and not concealed by magazine cap. Someone with a machine shop could probably make a wider magazine cap. These are solutions that I'm sure Val Browning could have worked out when he was perfecting the A5 design (changing safety, adding auto load 2-piece follower and magazine cutoff). But I guess it was better to just keep selling replacement fore ends. Keep in mind that back in the day Browning pretty much had the autoloader shotgun market cornered.

I agree that the detent housing would be tough to hide completely, but where that pin is located is pretty concealed. Anyone examining the gun closely enough to see it would probably view it as a feature rather than a problem. As for the balance issue, in my specific case, the barrel is 24" long, so I could probably duct tape fishing weights to the muzzle and have a decently handy gun. For a 28"+ barrel the balance might come up more. There is also the issue that when I miss stuff with a shotgun, it's rarely if ever the fault of the gun.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Clearly, the fix available to Val Browning would have been to add a reinforcement steel tube inside the front block of fore end, relocate the magazine cap keeper assembly as needed, and simply make the rim of magazine cap wider, not only to cover the keeper pin, but to ensure it engages the cap. An unbelievable easy fix. But it never happened.

I half understand why he stuck with the tang screw in wrist of butt stock vs anchoring it to the action spring tube like Remington 11-48. To access the action spring for cleaning and lubricating requires pulling the recoil pad off 11-48. For A5 this is not necessary. The tang screw is easily accessible. But I think the trade off was too much. Loose and cracked butt stocks are constant problems with old A5s and Remington Model 11s. The synthetic stock on my magnum A5 moves around but I don't need to worry about it. The stock is indestructible. Glass bedding a walnut stock before a problem develops might be a good solution but as I mentioned above it could be tricky given all the stuff going on and underneath the wood: action spring tube, tangs for receiver and trigger group, tang screw through the wrist, trigger spring screwed to trigger group tang.

 

[amschind]

Clearly, the fix available to Val Browning would have been to add a reinforcement steel tube inside the front block of fore end, relocate the magazine cap keeper assembly as needed, and simply make the rim of magazine cap wider, not only to cover the keeper pin, but to ensure it engages the cap. An unbelievable easy fix. But it never happened.

I half understand why he stuck with the tang screw in wrist of butt stock vs anchoring it to the action spring tube like Remington 11-48. To access the action spring for cleaning and lubricating requires pulling the recoil pad off 11-48. For A5 this is not necessary. The tang screw is easily accessible. But I think the trade off was too much. Loose and cracked butt stocks is a constant problem with old A5s and Remington Model 11s.

The rear tang screw really does seem like bedding will fix the issue. I think that the solution is to bed the front of the buttstock and ensure that the rear of the screws and the tang aren't making much contanct. That way the recoil force is directed ONLY into the front of the buttstock and NOT into the screw channels via the screws.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The rear tang screw really does seem like bedding will fix the issue. I think that the solution is to bed the front of the buttstock and ensure that the rear of the screws and the tang aren't making much contanct. That way the recoil force is directed ONLY into the front of the buttstock and NOT into the screw channels via the screws.

The problem is not only is recoil stressing the tang screw in one direction, but action spring inside the stock is also stressing the screw in the opposite direction. Constant push and shove. Bedding at the receiver will do nothing to relieve the stress from forward pressure of action spring. Recoil pushes the stock against receiver and back side of tang screw. Action spring pushes against the front side of tang screw. No help from receiver limiting this pressure.

 

[IvW]

Bad idea....very bad idea to bring a semi automatic 16ga to SA.....

The extra paperwork required and the lack off ammunition will not be worth the effort and no the ph or outfitter will 100% not own a 16ga and will therefore not be able to secure any ammunition for you before arrival....trust me.......ask the ph to supply a 12ga and use that. ...or bring a 12ga preferably non semi auto....

 

[IvW]

Why is it that a simple question turns into a gunsmithing shitshow......

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Why is it that a simple question turns into a gunsmithing shitshow......

Why is it you can't stay on your meds? The OP was also inviting thoughts re changes he was thinking about for this gun.

 

[amschind]

Bad idea....very bad idea to bring a semi automatic 16ga to SA.....

The extra paperwork required and the lack off ammunition will not be worth the effort and no the ph or outfitter will 100% not own a 16ga and will therefore not be able to secure any ammunition for you before arrival....trust me.......ask the ph to supply a 12ga and use that. ...or bring a 12ga preferably non semi auto....

1) it sounds like in your experience a double is legally much less exciting to the local authorities than a semi-auto. I don't pretend to understand the laws, but I do prefer not to be arrested in third world countries for "arms trafficking". If an over/under makes that less likely and makes ammo easier to get, I will keep the 16 for doves and ducks back home.

THANK YOU.

2) The real shitshow appears to be JMB's decision to use wood as a dimension critical impact surface. I had no idea, as I mistakenly believed that the barrel assembly bottomed out on the front of the receiver rather than the barrel band on the foreend wood. I think that the old Canuck may have saved me from replacing a not cheap piece of maple.

 

[amschind]

The problem is not only is recoil stressing the tang screw in one direction, but action spring inside the stock is also stressing the screw in the opposite direction. Constant push and shove. Bedding at the receiver will do nothing to relieve the stress from forward pressure of action spring. Recoil pushes the stock against receiver and back side of tang screw. Action spring pushes against the front side of tang screw. No help from receiver limiting this pressure.

It sounds like the FRONT of the screw channel also needs epoxy so that the screw can't batter the wood in the wrist to death. Is there any other surface that can absorb the forward momentum of the bolt/barrel slamming home without saying "yes, we will redesign the entire receiver to use a standard butt screw"?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It sounds like the FRONT of the screw channel also needs epoxy so that the screw can't batter the wood in the wrist to death. Is there any other surface that can absorb the forward momentum of the bolt/barrel slamming home without saying "yes, we will redesign the entire receiver to use a standard butt screw"?

I epoxied the tang screw on ALL sides and it didn't stop the cracking.

If you want to try bedding everything, first use some modeling putty to cover the trigger spring and screw. Really slather the non-stick on the action spring tube. Remove the action spring but replace the cap. Try to keep bedding glass from penetrating very deeply into channel for action spring tube.

 

[amschind]

Is 16 bore a foolish cartridge to take to Africa? Foolish...I don't believe so, but certainly not the best decision either. Especially in a 1929 A5.

A few things to consider...

Of course 16 bore shells are going to be hard to find, but have a discussion with your PH. The worst they could do is charge you for the case of ammo.

Next is shooting heavy loads in this particular firearm. Make sure the shotgun is sound by having the barrel checked for thickness. All the bedding in the world isn't going to do you much good if the chamber blows apart because it wasn't designed for modern shells.

Have the action tuned to the loads your PH will get. I owned a 1953 Belgian Browning A5 16 bore and sold it because I didn't like the recoil impulse.

You said this would be your third firearm? I'd like to know what case you are using and what it weighs with all three firearms. There is a 50 lb limit for luggage, exceed that number and you are subject to a freight charge. Typically they range from $100 to $300 per flight. So if you take two flights over and two flights back, that could be up to $1200 for the rifle case. BTW - Baggage handlers don't treat heavier bags better, in fact it's much worse.

Lastly...options. Take the A5 and just one rifle to reduce weight but still use the shotgun. Take two rifles and rent a shotgun. Change the shotgun for one of your others and choose option one. Crazy option 4, take one rifle and rent a shotgun...travel light.

Lots of ways to do this. Just know that it's YOUR safari and you should have it your way. Let us know what you decide.

The three guns that I'm looking at taking are a pair of custom Turk Mausers in 9.3x62, a .458 WM and a shotgun (this one or my Cynergy 12 ga). The other idea that folks have suggested is leaving the .458 at home. That's a mostly legal question because I am pretty set on getting a buffalo.

As for the A5 action, I shot this using a box of Cabelas Special Herter's immediately after buying it (impulse buy on my way to the range). I didn't know what a 2 9/16" shell was at that point, and am positive that the recoil system was 1) probably from 1929 and 2) had both friction rings touching the receiver, i.e. straight blowback. I was fortunate to discover that it had been factory converted to 2 3/4" in time immemorial. The only issue operating the gun was that the VERY old A5s block the loading gate unless the bolt release is depressed. Only took me a day to figure that out, but I felt a little better after I played with my Remington 11 and found that this is just an odd quirk for prewar A5s.

I have a bunch of Pelican cases and generally use them. "Custom foam" is actually no more difficult than buying sheets form Scamazon and trimming them with a knife....works surprisingly well. 2 guns would be much easier than 3, but a big argument for the Cynergy is that its supposed to break in half. The scopes on the Mausers are Leupold FXII (a 2.5 on the .458 and a 6x on the 9.3), so I might be able to Jenga all 3 into one big Pelican case.

 

[BeeMaa]

The three guns that I'm looking at taking are a pair of custom Turk Mausers in 9.3x62, a .458 WM and a shotgun (this one or my Cynergy 12 ga). The other idea that folks have suggested is leaving the .458 at home. That's a mostly legal question because I am pretty set on getting a buffalo.

As for the A5 action, I shot this using a box of Cabelas Special Herter's immediately after buying it (impulse buy on my way to the range). I didn't know what a 2 9/16" shell was at that point, and am positive that the recoil system was 1) probably from 1929 and 2) had both friction rings touching the receiver, i.e. straight blowback. I was fortunate to discover that it had been factory converted to 2 3/4" in time immemorial. The only issue operating the gun was that the VERY old A5s block the loading gate unless the bolt release is depressed. Only took me a day to figure that out, but I felt a little better after I played with my Remington 11 and found that this is just an odd quirk for prewar A5s.

I have a bunch of Pelican cases and generally use them. "Custom foam" is actually no more difficult than buying sheets form Scamazon and trimming them with a knife....works surprisingly well. 2 guns would be much easier than 3, but a big argument for the Cynergy is that its supposed to break in half. The scopes on the Mausers are Leupold FXII (a 2.5 on the .458 and a 6x on the 9.3), so I might be able to Jenga all 3 into one big Pelican case.

Legal for DG with the 9.3x62 will need to be verified by your PH, but that should not stop you from doing your own research as well.

I know tuning the A5 can be a PITA and truly believe there are better choices. That said, if you are happy with it...you should take it. BTW - Nearly any shotgun breaks down pretty easily into two pieces.

Out of curiosity, what would be the combined weight of the 9.3x62, 458WM, A5 and the Pelican case?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

"Tuning" an A5 is not rocket science. 1) Clean it once in a while and add a few drops of oil to magazine tube. 2) Reverse the steel compression ring for brake as needed. Concave side towards the brake for heavy loads. Flip it over with flat side against the brake for light loads. Browning instructions say to place the steel ring at bottom of barrel spring next to receiver. Don't do that. The spring then gets pinched between the brake and mag tube. Leave the steel ring at the top of spring and just flip it over for light loads. This allows the top of the brake only to be compressed during cycling. With concave surface of steel ring against the brake, the brake is compressed full length against the mag tube providing maximum resistance for magnum loads.

Many owners of A5 neglect to clean/oil the magazine tube and then the gun starts getting fussy cycling light loads. So their quick fix is to simply remove the friction brake or stack it at the bottom of barrel spring next to receiver (previous owner of OP's gun). Both will cause the gun to pound itself and shooter to pieces. Also, the spring can get trapped against the barrel ring and score the magazine tube.

 

[amschind]

Legal for DG with the 9.3x62 will need to be verified by your PH, but that should not stop you from doing your own research as well.

I know tuning the A5 can be a PITA and truly believe there are better choices. That said, if you are happy with it...you should take it. BTW - Nearly any shotgun breaks down pretty easily into two pieces.

Out of curiosity, what would be the combined weight of the 9.3x62, 458WM, A5 and the Pelican case?

Well if there weren't better choices in the 120 years since the A5 was invented, I think we as a species would have a far bigger issue than "This antique shotgun that I like has been outclassed!". I have a lot of efficient guns that work well for their task....the Cynergy 12 ga is a great example. It's as rust resistant as a Browning can be, It balances perfectly and always gets 2 shots off with different chokes if I want. Heck, political leaders who hate guns shoot them to prove that they don't hate guns quite so much....it even has anti-gun-control armor! Recoil can be nothing with 1100 FPS 1 1/8oz #8 or it can be a FLAK cannon with 3.5" 1 1/2 oz BBs at 1500 FPS all with a reload. I don't NEED another gun.

But a really beautiful 16 ga A5 has a mystique to it, even if it has been outclassed in raw performance. I find the recoil to be negligible (my standard is a O/U 12, so that's why), and all I want it for it not to beat itself to death with regular use.

As for the combined weight, my gunsmith actually told me that he thinks the rifles will be ready later this month, so I can actually get an idea for you. The .458 is too light..... I held it while partially assembled and realized that with a med sporter contour, the barrel is very....handy. It feels great but it can't be anything over 8# with no bolt, ammo or scope. It won't weigh 10# all in. So transportation is a non-issue, shoulder surgeon fees might be.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Well if there weren't better choices in the 120 years since the A5 was invented, I think we as a species would have a far bigger issue than "This antique shotgun that I like has been outclassed!". I have a lot of efficient guns that work well for their task....the Cynergy 12 ga is a great example. It's as rust resistant as a Browning can be, It balances perfectly and always gets 2 shots off with different chokes if I want. Heck, political leaders who hate guns shoot them to prove that they don't hate guns quite so much....it even has anti-gun-control armor! Recoil can be nothing with 1100 FPS 1 1/8oz #8 or it can be a FLAK cannon with 3.5" 1 1/2 oz BBs at 1500 FPS all with a reload. I don't NEED another gun.

But a really beautiful 16 ga A5 has a mystique to it, even if it has been outclassed in raw performance. I find the recoil to be negligible (my standard is a O/U 12, so that's why), and all I want it for it not to beat itself to death with regular use.

As for the combined weight, my gunsmith actually told me that he thinks the rifles will be ready later this month, so I can actually get an idea for you. The .458 is too light..... I held it while partially assembled and realized that with a med sporter contour, the barrel is very....handy. It feels great but it can't be anything over 8# with no bolt, ammo or scope. It won't weigh 10# all in. So transportation is a non-issue, shoulder surgeon fees might be.

When I was building my 404 Mauser last year, the barrel maker asked me what contour I wanted. Heck, I don't know anything about barrel contours. Went with his suggested #5. When the gunsmith handed me the rifle after barrel was mounted, my first thought was "Ugh! This is heavy!" First shot at the range and the scope bit me ... bad. Okay ... maybe weight is my friend. If that gun had weighed 8.5 lbs instead of ten, I might have had a hospital bill.

 

[amschind]

When I was building my 404 Mauser last year, the barrel maker asked me what contour I wanted. Heck, I don't know anything about barrel contours. Went with his suggested #5. When the gunsmith handed me the rifle after barrel was mounted, my first thought was "Ugh! This is heavy!" First shot at the range and the scope bit me ... bad. Okay ... maybe weight is my friend. If that gun had weighed 8.5 lbs instead of ten, I might have had a hospital bill.

The only saving grace is the 2.5x scope....it has massive eye relief, so a half moon isn't a concern, but it will be a pleasant rifle to carry if not to shoot.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The only saving grace is the 2.5x scope....it has massive eye relief, so a half moon isn't a concern, but it will be a pleasant rifle to carry if not to shoot.

Yep. The old 3x Weaver went back into retirement. My 404 now wears a new 1-4x 30mm with Warne QD rings and iron sights for backup. This scope has +4" eye relief.

 

[light476]

In the rare times when it was both safer (depending on the country) and more affordable, I was fortunate enough to have gone 3x, mostly for dangerous game & plains game, but did mix in some wingshooting and fishing. Flew into Jo-berg, but did not hunt RSA. I brought my own rifles, but did my wingshooting with 12ga double; 16ga. was available, but I'm not sure if semi-auto's were in the countries I hunted. DEFINITELY--clear everything through your outfitter (Professional Hunter-PH) to avoid any bad surprises. They are lurking around many corners. I would not plan on carrying your own shotshells; get the PH to provide them. The airlines, TSA & Customs and the countries then did have (and I would imagine still do) have strict limitations on amount, weight, gauge/caliber and packaging. I know some countries prohibit semi-autos, but don't know if RSA does. Read all the material you can on TSA/customs regulations and applicable RSA regs. Your PH should provide them and you of course can surf the internet. If the Outfitter is not already planning to provide an airport "GREETER" service at the Jo-berg airport, it would be well worth the small amount of cash to arrange for one to meet you there and navigate through all the customs rigamarole. That could save you a couple of hours finding the right line to get in and standing there waiting your turn, versus "moving to the head of the line" like a VIP. US$$ in tips (small bills) are the key (and expectation) to good service in Africa. HAVE A GREAT TIME ON YOUR TRIP! I don't think you will ever regret it. Word of warning though--if you ever go once, you'll have to go back.

 

[amschind]