A Win for South African Hunters!

[Flewis]

We didn’t even get to the FEW I was thinking of. Hope they get here to straighten me out.

 

[Flewis]

ActionBob, you are right I don’t understand bashing SA or insulting people’s choices on hunting. There are fewer hunters every year and yet we fight amongst ourselves which was really my point. I don’t understand!

 

[Red Leg]

Premier Kalahari Concession Hunting Area | CV Safaris

Premier Kalahari Concession Hunting Area the finest destinations in Africa. It spans 240 000 acres making it the largest hunting block in South Africa

www.cvsafaris.com

Hard to take your comment seriously when you blatantly ignore all the information that is out there. Typical

We didn’t even get to the FEW I was thinking of. Hope they get here to straighten me out.

I know this must be frustrating, but no one is trying to argue with you. Unless I misread your comments, no one else was trying to shanghai this thread from the original subject. Most importantly, no one is "bashing" South Africa or "insulting" anyone's choices.

Many of us here have meaningful experience hunting high fence, cattle fence, and true wilderness areas. We tend to offer our honest opinions based upon that experience. @ActionBob has more than most. If we are being honest, he has significantly more than most who live and hunt in South Africa.

As I noted in my post above, hunting South Africa can be a very positive experience. I also have noted in other posts on this subject, the final 200 yards approaching a buffalo is pretty similar whether along the banks of the Zambezi, Kwando, or Limpopo. But the other 20-200 kilometers can be dramatically different than a ranch hunt. To put it in North American terms, it is the difference between a lodge hunt for elk at Chama or taking a string of horses 10 hours into a mountain base camp. Both can be tremendous experiences, but it is untruthful to say they are the same.

If traveling with a spouse, particularly a non-hunting one, those differences in Africa such as the mosquito netting of coastal Mozambique, the toilette and shower out back with a flickering naked light bulb rather than an ensuite decorated heated bathroom, the rumbling of a hippo picking his way around camp in the Caprivi or along the Zambezi, or doing battle with legions of tsetse flies in the back of a land cruiser in much country north of the Limpopo is likely a mistake. Many hunters also are not interested in that sort of experience added onto the hunt. That is likely wise in the first instance and fully understandable in the latter.

But others crave it. They will pay a premium to experience it. I also believe those experiences are closer to what Hemingway and Ruark actually saw, than a modern recreation of a tented East African safari camp of 1936. The photo below is of our group trekking 10 km through the Zambezi Delta swamps with a couple of buffalo to get back to the last point the land cruiser could go. It is difficult to imagine a similar scenario or photo opportunity on a game ranch. It is my most meaningful buffalo hunting experience. But the heat, mud, mosquitoes, and leaches could mean a day of abject misery to others.

None of this is about better or worse or intended as a criticism of the South African model. It is simply to say there are differences, often huge ones, across the breadth of the African continent. It is a difference that can be very important to some people - negatively and positively.

For instance, my personal focus is to try and hunt animals in their native habitat. The idea of shooting a nyala, lechwe, sable, or waterbuck other than where they are indigenous, was of no interest to me. I am sure that is a result of exposure to the ranch hunting system here. It took two safaris to get a sable, and almost fifteen years to take a truly large one. I could have done that in two days on a typical South African game ranch. It is perfectly ok if another hunter's value add perception is to seize the 48-hour opportunity. And while it is wrong to say that one experience is "better" than the other, it is equally wrong to assert that each experience is the same for each hunter because of that personal value assessment. For instance, I would change nothing in the path I took.

So when this subject comes up, I really think most who do not have broad experience across different hunting opportunities on the continent genuinely want and appreciate a nuanced discussion rather than an argument or an accusation.

 

[Flewis]

I have only hunted Zambia and SA so just a baby at this, only been to Africa 3 times. I wasn’t disagreeing with ActionBob just wanted him to understand my concerns. I’m happy with the low turnout which means the FEW aren’t as anti as I thought. I’m very happy to be wrong on that point. Frank

 

[ActionBob]

I have only hunted Zambia and SA so just a baby at this, only been to Africa 3 times. I wasn’t disagreeing with ActionBob just wanted him to understand my concerns. I’m happy with the low turnout which means the FEW aren’t as anti as I thought. I’m very happy to be wrong on that point. Frank

Frank, yours is not the first time this general topic has come up over the past ~12 years I've been member of this forum. The last thing I want to do is to negatively affect hunting. In South Africa or anywhere else.

However your accusations push some buttons. I just do not see what you apparently see so I stand by my assessment that you are just flat out wrong on your initial assumptions. So I'm very pleased that you are happy to reconsider and accept that you were wrong on that.

@Red Leg is so much more eloquent than I in his explanations. He sums it up very well.

Again I have no problem with and in fact enjoy hunting in South Africa. I do haveca problem with people who claim it is the same as the real wild places because it just simply is not. And I have a real problem when bs is liked on top of bs to the point the presenter of said bs cannot even recognize the truth any longer.

Thankfully the powers that be on this sight do a very good of culling that behavior out. But it still exists. Hunt long enough with enough different outfits and you will run into it. Unless you enjoy that sort of thing.

I have no problem with anyone shooting a buffalo with an ear tag in a pen. Just be honest and forthright. Don't tell me it is a wild free roaming buffalo. Even more so with lion!

A Texas example; A few of us were in a group discussion about a popular hunting show star going on a great and in fact very dangerous hunting expedition for a Markhor. It was something like a $150,000 hunt which was going a very long ways towards anti poaching and the education and employment of the local population to get them to understand how saving this species from extinction is in their best interest.

I was extolling the adventure and accomplishment of taking this prized animal. A hunting outfitter from Texas was in on the discussion and stated that if I wanted a Markhor, he could get one on his ranch that I could then "hunt" for considerably less money!

He didn't "get it". Maybe you don't, hopefully you do. Too many in Texas and South Africa do not. And there is a huge gap in understanding between those few and some of the rest of us. And I don't really have a problem with that understanding gap.... But I do have a problem when I am lied to about these things.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

I do haveca problem with people who claim it is the same as the real wild places because it just simply is not.

I'm not going to pretend that most hunting in RSA is at all comparable to Wild Africa because it simply isn't. Most of it is ranch hunting, very similar to Namibia, and I don't think anyone (excluding maybe one user here) has a problem with that. But to say, or at least imply, that there aren't ANY areas in RSA comparable to Tanzania at all is just so frustrating. I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but there are areas in RSA that are just as wild as those you'd find in Tanzania. HOWEVER, they aren't the norm and you need to do actual digging to find them.

I remember reading an old thread where you stated your doubts about wild lion hunting in RSA, based on the fact that you were conned into initially thinking one of the lion hunts you went on concerned wild lions, only for it to turn out to be a CBL. I understand that creates some skepticism on your part, but it shouldn't sway your judgment when the reality is otherwise. Instead of painting with broad strokes, it would be better to realize that you had bad luck due to bad actors. It happens, especially here I'm ashamed to admit.

 

[BenKK]

How to negate a true wilderness hunt in Tanzania? Shoot from or near the vehicle instead of walking your arse off. I see quite a few YouTube vids showing this happening in proper wild areas, and usually it’s an accusation reserved for RSA. Wherever you go… walk!

 

[ActionBob]

I'm not going to pretend that most hunting in RSA is at all comparable to Wild Africa because it simply isn't. Most of it is ranch hunting, very similar to Namibia, and I don't think anyone (excluding maybe one user here) has a problem with that. But to say, or at least imply, that there aren't ANY areas in RSA comparable to Tanzania at all is just so frustrating. I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but there are areas in RSA that are just as wild as those you'd find in Tanzania. HOWEVER, they aren't the norm and you need to do actual digging to find them.

I remember reading an old thread where you stated your doubts about wild lion hunting in RSA, based on the fact that you were conned into initially thinking one of the lion hunts you went on concerned wild lions, only for it to turn out to be a CBL. I understand that creates some skepticism on your part, but it shouldn't sway your judgment when the reality is otherwise. Instead of painting with broad strokes, it would be better to realize that you had bad luck due to bad actors. It happens, especially here I'm ashamed to admit.

Ok now I'm curious. Where in South Africa can hunt with so many wild lions roaming about that you see the tracks daily no matter where in the 750,000 plus acres of the concession you go? Perhaps somewhere adjacent to Kruger? But won't that have a perimeter fence? It may be open to Kruger but I'm not aware of a place with lions or even buffalo in South Africa that is not fenced off from the general populous.

Tanzania has zero fences where I hunted. Not a perimeter fence. No fences for hundreds of miles.. No people other than those in your hunting camp.

And can you hunt with no size restrictions or extra cost, truly hunt for the best trophy you can find.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

Ok now I'm curious. Where in South Africa can hunt with so many wild lions roaming about that you see the tracks daily no matter where in the 750,000 plus acres of the concession you go?

Premier Kalahari Concession Hunting Area | CV Safaris

Premier Kalahari Concession Hunting Area the finest destinations in Africa. It spans 240 000 acres making it the largest hunting block in South Africa

www.cvsafaris.com

Where CVS operates, they quite literally stumble into different lions every few days and find tracks wherever they look. The place is FULL of lions and it only continues to grow annually.

Perhaps somewhere adjacent to Kruger? But won't that have a perimeter fence? It may be open to Kruger but I'm not aware of a place with lions or even buffalo in South Africa that is not fenced off from the general populous.

I thought we were past the fencing debate. The BVC and SVC in Zimbabwe both have two of the largest and healthiest populations of wild lions in Africa today and yet both have perimeter fences. Unless you don't consider those to be wild lions, purely because of the fences? Genuine question.

Tanzania has zero fences where I hunted. Not a perimeter fence. No fences for hundreds of miles.. No people other than those in your hunting camp.

Tanzania is a one-of-a-kind safari destination in regards to no fences, and I really don't think it's fair to hold other African destinations up to that standard. Sure, there are areas in Mozambique and Zambia where there are wild lions with no fences in sight, but you're going to seriously narrow down your list of 'wild' hunting areas if you go by that standard. It isn't realistic.

When I say there are areas in South Africa akin to Tanzania, I mean that the animals are self-sustaining, there's no human encroachment into the area, the area in question is remote and very large, and it holds an abundance of animals with very good trophy quality. As soon as you bring up fences, well, there's really no point in the discussion now is there?

And can you hunt with no size restrictions or extra cost, truly hunt for the best trophy you can find.

Do trophy restrictions on lions even exist? But since you brought it up, the area CVS operates has a limited quota of two lions for a season, and that's when they're ever awarded quotas, which could be years apart. The quality of the lions is exceptional, think black-maned Kalahari lions, and there are no restrictions as to the size of lions. Only age restrictions that you would find in wild lion hunting today.

 

[ActionBob]

Premier Kalahari Concession Hunting Area | CV Safaris

Premier Kalahari Concession Hunting Area the finest destinations in Africa. It spans 240 000 acres making it the largest hunting block in South Africa

www.cvsafaris.com

Where CVS operates, they quite literally stumble into different lions every few days and find tracks wherever they look. The place is FULL of lions and it only continues to grow annually.

I thought we were past the fencing debate. The BVC and SVC in Zimbabwe both have two of the largest and healthiest populations of wild lions in Africa today and yet both have perimeter fences. Unless you don't consider those to be wild lions, purely because of the fences? Genuine question.

Tanzania is a one-of-a-kind safari destination in regards to no fences, and I really don't think it's fair to hold other African destinations up to that standard. Sure, there are areas in Mozambique and Zambia where there are wild lions with no fences in sight, but you're going to seriously narrow down your list of 'wild' hunting areas if you go by that standard. It isn't realistic.

When I say there are areas in South Africa akin to Tanzania, I mean that the animals are self-sustaining, there's no human encroachment into the area, the area in question is remote and very large, and it holds an abundance of animals with very good trophy quality. As soon as you bring up fences, well, there's really no point in the discussion now is there?

Do trophy restrictions on lions even exist? But since you brought it up, the area CVS operates has a limited quota of two lions for a season, and that's when they're ever awarded quotas, which could be years apart. The quality of the lions is exceptional, think black-maned Kalahari lions, and there are no restrictions as to the size of lions. Only age restrictions that you would find in wild lion hunting today.

Sorry I meant to say no size restrictions on Buffalo.

And yes fences are a valid issue. And I have hunted in Zimbabwe with no fences. And in South Africa with only low cattle fences but there was no dangerous game.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

Sorry I meant to say no size restrictions on Buffalo

No worries. In regards to size restrictions on buffalo in CVS's area, there aren't any. The two biggest bulls they've taken measured 52 and and 48 inches in width. That was last year. No, they weren't known bulls.

And yes fences are a valid issue.

Okay, so by your logic, the BVC and SVC don't qualify as wild. That's a pretty high standard, but oh well. Just don't knock the few wild lion hunts that do happen in RSA, because of that standard.

'Wild' doesn't inherently equate to no fences. It's not that simple.

 

[ActionBob]

No worries. In regards to size restrictions on buffalo in CVS's area, there aren't any. The two biggest bulls they've taken measured 52 and and 48 inches in width. That was last year. No, they weren't known bulls.

Okay, so by your logic, the BVC and SVC don't qualify as wild. That's a pretty high standard you've got there, but oh well.

What is your connection to CVS?

 

[PhotoCollector73]

What is your connection to CVS?

None.

 

[375Fox]

Premier Kalahari Concession Hunting Area | CV Safaris

Premier Kalahari Concession Hunting Area the finest destinations in Africa. It spans 240 000 acres making it the largest hunting block in South Africa

www.cvsafaris.com

Hard to take your comment seriously when you blatantly ignore all the information that is out there. Typical

You’ve brought up this example several times. I’m certain it’s equivalent to free range hunting in Namibia or Botswana, maybe better due to presence of big 5. It will draw a certain clientele willing to pay a premium. I’ve never seen anyone deny these areas exist in South Africa. However, it’s hard to look past the thousands of small properties in between that don’t operate that way.
Why don’t you bring up self-sustaining reserves managed on quotas between say 20,000 and 80,000 acres? They don’t get nearly the attention this 200,000 acre concession gets. Who do they compete with? A 200,000 acre big 5 concession managed on a sustainable quota or the 10,000 acre Limpopo ranch that claims to be self sustaining but also seems to have an endless supply of trophy sable, trophy buffalo, 12-13 foot crocs that have found their way into stock ponds, and different antelope color variants (and commercial breeding operations very visible not far down the road). These outfitters advertise the same experience and claim self sustaining animals too except at a significant discounted price to properties that really are self sustaining. If you care that much about South Africa’s reputation, I don’t understand why you don’t speak out against it. That’s really the difference I see between Namibia and South Africa. The professional hunters association in Namibia holds their members to a set of ethics where South Africa does not.
What is self sustaining in South Africa? I’ll use buffalo as an example. A property with only bull buffalo that don’t need fed (but obviously can’t breed)? A property where the bull to cow ratio is 5 to 1 with additional young bulls added yearly from a breeding operation? A property where the herd continues to grow without any human interference? The definition of self-sustaining seems to be a flexible definition as outfitters flight for clients.

 

[375Fox]

No worries. In regards to size restrictions on buffalo in CVS's area, there aren't any. The two biggest bulls they've taken measured 52 and and 48 inches in width. That was last year. No, they weren't known bulls.

Okay, so by your logic, the BVC and SVC don't qualify as wild. That's a pretty high standard, but oh well. Just don't knock the few wild lion hunts that do happen in RSA, because of that standard.

'Wild' doesn't inherently equate to no fences. It's not that simple.

You’ve asked them for a price list? You’ve spoken with them? A 48 inch bull and a 52 inch bull will come at a premium. The hunter likely selected an unlimited trophy size class, but I highly doubt a 38 inch bull is priced the same as a 52 inch bull in that area. You are writing what you’d like to believe.

 

[Scott CWO]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/oth...&cvid=ac7c4b2f6340473c9fe23bd219d5c719&ei=134

This is great news. It’s about time we got some good news about hunting. My hat is off to those involved. I’ve never hunted SA but have hunted several other African countries. I hope to get a rhino in SA someday on a large property.

 

[Pheroze]

What was the OP again?

 

[BRICKBURN]

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Wow, does anyone know the origin of this legislation? Why would they move to undo what is working so well?

Don't know for sure, but it may have to do with Travelocity, Expedia and other big name travel companies see thing a letter to the South African government urging them to end all trophy hunting in the country. They claimed that tourism suffered because people wanted to see animals that weren't hunted. I found this out and started a thread on it here past year. Both g money putting pressure on politicians. I have already contacted these companies and informed them that I would no longer be doing business with them for any travel. I think more hunters should do the same.

 

[Tiger2001]

I don't believe anyone on this forum truly "hates" the South African hunting model. Like any industry anywhere, South African ranch hunting has its paragons and villains. Fortunately, the former seem to significantly outnumber the latter.

I won't speak for Europe, but I think many of us here in Texas have a clearer appreciation of where the discussion, even arguments, arise than many. Here too, wildlife ranching is a big business. Behind the high fences of the Hill Country, a paying customer can hunt anything from a 135 class management whitetail to a 250 inch frankendeer to a bongo and nearly everything in between. Those ranches have been responsible for the resurgence of rare species such as the scimitar horned ibex which is flourishing both on high-fenced and free range ranches. On those high fenced ranches, those animals can be hunted under challenging conditions or in "pastures" so small as to make a mockery of the word hunt.

The same is true in South Africa. There are wonderful ranches of sufficient acreage to far exceed the natural range of the game they hold. There are others that may offer a hippo in a stock tank. Captive bred lions are a subject unto themselves.

Like Texas, the game ranches in South Africa provide access to animals that would otherwise require multiple safaris to multiple regions of Africa. Many American hunters never realize that hunting a red lechwe, waterbuck, sable or nyala in the high desert of the Limpopo is a bit like hunting an elk in the Hill Country. Also, if one has a free range concession in Mozambique with indigenous Nyala and Sable, or one in Zambia with some of the largest sable in Africa, competing with a ranch in South Africa can be frustrating. That sometimes leaks into conversations here.

But I am confident that all recognize the net value the South African model has provided both the international hunting community and the animals themselves. It is likely the best place to go for someone's first or only trip to Africa. One has options from boutique hotel class lodges to tented camps that offer not only Wi-Fi and running water, but also a sense of what it might have been like to hunt East Africa between the wars. More importantly, a high volume South African hunt can ignite a passion to explore African game hunting in its indigenous habitats across the continent.

My last buffalo hunt was in the Limpopo. It was a very positive hunting experience - so much so, that I wrote an article about it. One simply has to dedicate the due diligence to insure that the hunting environment meets ones personal requirements for fair chase.

Can you please share the name of the outfitter you went with for the Limpopo buff hunt?