A Case of Use Enough Gun?

[Ontario Hunter]

Yep the 25-35 and 25 Remington kept my Grandfathers family supplied with venison during the depression and WW2 years. My Grandfather had a Remington 141 pump in 25 Remington but couldn't afford or hardly find ammo for it, but his older brother who was off fighting in WW2 had a stockpile of 25-35.
He told me he would spend nights taking a file to the rims so they would fit in his gun while his parents slept lol! He also admitted that was not one of his brightest ideas.

My granddad also fed his family during the Depression with a 141 pump in 25 Remington. Last we knew my highly decorated Vietnam vet cousin had it. Sadly, he smoked himself to death thirty years ago. No on knows what happened to the gun after that. I would love to have it.

 

[Colt191145lover]

My granddad also fed his family during the Depression with a 141 pump in 25 Remington. Last we knew my highly decorated Vietnam vet cousin had it. Sadly, he smoked himself to death thirty years ago. No on knows what happened to the gun after that. I would love to have it.

That's too bad. I know my cousin ended up with my grandfathers so at least I know its still in the family.
Grandpa gave me more than a few family heirlooms , one is my Great Grandfathers Savage 99 Featherweight in 308 .

 

[DIRTYHARRYBALLISTICS]

No a 300 would have caused less damage passing through. The 243Win is great White Tail medicine!
Just a rare shot that although hits it ultimately misses any critical areas

How on earth do you think a .300 win mag would cause less damage than a .243? That has to be the most ignorant thing i've ever read on a forum.

 

[CZDiesel]

How on earth do you think a .300 win mag would cause less damage than a .243? That has to be the most ignorant thing i've ever read on a forum.

Really?!? First try to stay polite and not call others ignorant or any other name calling!
Second the 300 will have a heavier jacket made to expand more slowly in any design than a 243 caliber bullet! The 243 will open up much faster and cause more initial hydrostatic shock on small light game where as the heavier, thicker jacketed 300 will just pencile through unless bone is hit!
Please have a general understanding on bullet performance before trying to denigrate others here! This is not that kind of forum! We debate politely here!

 

[OSU]

Dirtyharry there are many service members who have survived ND's with 50 bmgs at close range. Bullet design will trump cartridge every time.

 

[roklok]

I have witnessed and experienced many times a heavier cartridge and bullet causing less damage than a smaller more frangible bullet. I am sure I am not alone in this. Depending on bullet construction, a .300 magnum whatever could indeed cause less tissue trauma than a .243. As was said, it is highly dependent on bullet construction and velocity. A lot of 30 caliber projectiles are designed for deeper penetration on larger game and there is a very good chance they would cause less tissue destruction than most .243 caliber bullets in a high shoulder "flesh wound" shot scenario.

 

[RR 314]

I have witnessed and experienced many times a heavier cartridge and bullet causing less damage than a smaller more frangible bullet. I am sure I am not alone in this. Depending on bullet construction, a .300 magnum whatever could indeed cause less tissue trauma than a .243. As was said, it is highly dependent on bullet construction and velocity. A lot of 30 caliber projectiles are designed for deeper penetration on larger game and there is a very good chance they would cause less tissue destruction than most .243 caliber bullets in a high shoulder "flesh wound" shot scenario.

Yup. All depends on the bullet used. A .300 magnum and a .243 Win. shooting Barnes TSX for example at average for offering velocity (or factory Core-Lokt PSP in .300 and .243) is a much different conversation and analysis than when shooting different projectiles out of each rifle.

 

[Daisy]

Different killing mechanisms.

Killing mechanism between expansion bullet, and sharp broadhead arrow is different.
They kill in different way. Here is best description i found:

Bullets kill primarily through high-energy impact. When a bullet strikes an animal, it crushes tissue and bone due to its kinetic energy. This impact can incapacitate the animal by breaking major bones, which reduces its ability to escape. The energy transfer from the bullet creates a wide wound channel, leading to significant tissue destruction. This mechanism also causes severe bleeding and can induce shock to the nervous system, further contributing to the animal’s incapacity or death.

In contrast, arrows utilize a low-energy impact mechanism. Broadhead-tipped arrows are designed to cut through vital tissues rather than crush them. They function more like knives or swords that slice blood vessels upon penetration. The effectiveness of an arrow relies heavily on proper shot placement; if an arrow is poorly placed, it may not cause immediate incapacitation or significant blood loss, making recovery difficult.

Wound Characteristics

The wounds created by bullets are characterized by both permanent and temporary cavities due to their high speed and mass. Bullets create a larger wound track compared to arrows because they expand upon impact (in the case of expanding bullets) or maintain their shape while causing extensive damage as they pass through tissue.

On the other hand, arrow wounds tend to be narrower but deeper due to their design and sectional density. Arrows penetrate effectively because they are long and skinny, allowing them to travel through flesh with less resistance than a bullet would encounter when trying to penetrate similar material.

In summary, bullets kill through high-energy impact that crushes tissues and causes extensive damage, while arrows kill by cutting vital tissues with low-energy impacts, requiring precise placement for effective results.

Although this is true, it does nothing to address the topic of a 243 being inadequate for deer but a bow is ok

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Yep. I helped my buddy skin a big buck shot with his 45-70. I was amazed at the lack of damage. Big hole in, big hole out the other side, and almost no bloodshot. My 30-06 would not have been as clean. That big heavy slug knocked the deer off its feet and it didn't get up. Of course the downside is deer needs to be less than a hundred yards away.

 

[Altitude sickness]

How on earth do you think a .300 win mag would cause less damage than a .243? That has to be the most ignorant thing i've ever read on a forum.

Dirty Harry, please tone down the hostile sounding response. I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way.

 

[MS 9x56]

How on earth do you think a .300 win mag would cause less damage than a .243? That has to be the most ignorant thing i've ever read on a forum.

DirtyHarryBallistics you’re showing your inexperience in bullet selection and performance. Please try to keep it civil.

 

[DIRTYHARRYBALLISTICS]

DirtyHarryBallistics you’re showing your inexperience in bullet selection and performance. Please try to keep it civil.

Please, do inform me. And be sure to show the ballistic testing that shows a .243 does more damage than a .300 win mag.

 

[CZDiesel]

DirtyHarryBallistics you’re showing your inexperience in bullet selection and performance. Please try to keep it civil.

@MS 9x56 Let it go brother, not worth the time…

 

[mark-hunter]

Although this is true, it does nothing to address the topic of a 243 being inadequate for deer but a bow is ok

This was a comment on the forum members comparison energy between bow and bullt.

But, if you ask on 243:
Designed to be varmint cartridge, with flat trajectory and low recoil, with lighter bullets, and to be deer cartridge with heavier bullets. Dual purpose cartridge, all in one rifle.

Personally I dont believe in compromises.
This case could be one of the cases of failure on heavier game of dual purpose cartridge.
Even if the idea of dual purpose gun could be great, and even if designs of cartridge and ammunition industry achieved this goal, the weak link is uneducated hunter or gun owner: very easy to use lighter varmint bullets on heavier game (deer), increasing percentage of wounding.

Average hunter in my opinion does not go deep into bullet construction and design. Mistake is easy to make. Take a box of rounds for next season, test the rifle on a paper target (if at all), go shoot one deer, and season is done. Choice of bullets is frequently made by price, or availability, or habit.
If a hunter uses the gun for higher volume shooting on varmints, heavier bullet will require rezeroing the rifle. For one deer only. And shot placement is everything. So, why bother. There are many aspects that leads to possible errors.

Thus, I am not a fan of such compromises.

My way is one rifle and one bullet for one class of game. Or, if one rifle is for everything, then the caliber to fit the largest game on the list.

 

[CZDiesel]

This was a comment on the forum members comparison energy between bow and bullt.

But, if you ask on 243:
Designed to be varmint cartridge, with flat trajectory and low recoil, with lighter bullets, and to be deer cartridge with heavier bullets. Dual purpose cartridge, all in one rifle.

Personally I dont believe in compromises.
This case could be one of the cases of failure on heavier game of dual purpose cartridge.
Even if the idea of dual purpose gun could be great, and even if designs of cartridge and ammunition industry achieved this goal, the weak link is uneducated hunter or gun owner: very easy to use lighter varmint bullets on heavier game (deer), increasing percentage of wounding.

Average hunter in my opinion does not go deep into bullet construction and design. Mistake is easy to make. Take a box of rounds for next season, test the rifle on a paper target (if at all), go shoot one deer, and season is done. Choice of bullets is frequently made by price, or availability, or habit.
If a hunter uses the gun for higher volume shooting on varmints, heavier bullet will require rezeroing the rifle. For one deer only. And shot placement is everything. So, why bother. There are many aspects that leads to possible errors.

Thus, I am not a fan of such compromises.

My way is one rifle and one bullet for one class of game. Or, if one rifle is for everything, then the caliber to fit the largest game on the list.

Everyone has their opinions and that’s great! Variety is the spice of life and keeps things interesting…
But the 243Win with the right bullet will hammer large Whitetails!
Both of these large bodied bucks were just taken this season using a 243Win and it knocked the heck out of them!

 

[DIRTYHARRYBALLISTICS]

Really?!? First try to stay polite and not call others ignorant or any other name calling!
Second the 300 will have a heavier jacket made to expand more slowly in any design than a 243 caliber bullet! The 243 will open up much faster and cause more initial hydrostatic shock on small light game where as the heavier, thicker jacketed 300 will just pencile through unless bone is hit!
Please have a general understanding on bullet performance before trying to denigrate others here! This is not that kind of forum! We debate politely here!

I have 0 hostility, and i do not call people names, to do so would yield nothing, and i apologize for it coming across hostile, as none was intended. I much prefer logical discourse. To those speaking of bullet construction, there is an insane plethora of .308 bullets to choose from. The .300 win mag delivers far superior energy and damage on target, similar velocities, with double the bullet weight and a larger cross section. To the comment about a smaller, more frangible bullet, just a quick search yields frangibles in .308, so yes, if the hunter chooses a poor bullet construction for his hunt, it would yield poor results, but thats whether he uses .243 or .300, its the same equation. You cannot logically compare a .243 with a frangible bullet, to a .300 with a non frangible. Take the same bullet construction per each, and the .300 delivers more damage. To declare otherwise defies logic and is merely patting a preference. There are a greater number of .308 bullet options than there are .243 options. I would love to be enlightened on bullet selection and performance if there seems to be something i'm missing. If its velocity you seek, you can put a 120gr Barnes TAC-TX loaded hot will go near 4k. (Not claiming it'll go over 4k, but it'll be bumping that limiter) i know this from personal experience. I had a Thompson. 300 Win Mag that i learned to reload using. I tried many bullets trying to eek all the performance i could out of it, but the .300 never achieved performance like i wanted so i sold it and moved on.

 

[DIRTYHARRYBALLISTICS]

Everyone has their opinions and that’s great! Variety is the spice of life and keeps things interesting…
But the 243Win with the right bullet will hammer large Whitetails!
Both of these large bodied bucks were just taken this season using a 243Win and it knocked the heck out of them!

View attachment 657144View attachment 657145

I certainly agree the .243, with proper bullet selection, is more than adequate for deer, and i've even seen elk taken with it.

 

[OSU]

Here is the exit hole from a 0.223 with a quality bullet after going through both scapula. A .243 will kill deer or elk for that matter just fine. It was designed to kill stuff and that is what it does.

 

[DIRTYHARRYBALLISTICS]

Yup. All depends on the bullet used. A .300 magnum and a .243 Win. shooting Barnes TSX for example at average for offering velocity (or factory Core-Lokt PSP in .300 and .243) is a much different conversation and analysis than when shooting different projectiles out of each rifle.

I do believe i'm up for testing this theory. It wont happen soon as i dont own either cartridges at the moment, but i may be able to sort that out down the road. I could do a shoot, side by side on ballistics gel and with slow-mo, we could easily see which leaves the larger temporary and permanent wound cavities.

 

[ftrovato]

Everyone has their opinions and that’s great! Variety is the spice of life and keeps things interesting…
But the 243Win with the right bullet will hammer large Whitetails!
Both of these large bodied bucks were just taken this season using a 243Win and it knocked the heck out of them!

View attachment 657144View attachment 657145

Congrats! Beautiful deer!! What grain and type bullets did you use on both? How far were they and were they broadside shots? thx....