A Case of Use Enough Gun?

[Dukeisok]

Anatomically I've never understood the concept of the No Man's land, I'm a surgeon so always think in terms of human anatomy but there's no way you could go between the lungs and the spine in a human. The largest blood vessels in the body are right in front of the spine through most of the lung Fields as well. From cleaning deer it appears that they are very similar in that regard

That said, after years of asking my wife if she wanted to go hunting with me I finally convinced her. We went on a November day in some South Carolina soybean fields and I had her set up with my sons suppressed 6.5 creedmoor. She shot a sizable doe that dropped to the shot. She stayed in the stand until shooting light was gone and when my son and I went out to recover it an hour later the doe was very much alive. I left my rifle at the truck. I ended up killing that deer with the pocket knife to the base of the skull. I assume that she hit a vertebrae but missed all vital organs. Probably about an inch or two too high. It is my hope that my wife never finds out that that deer laid paralyzed for an hour or she'll never go hunting again

 

[IvW]

Rather a case of dont shoot if you do not have a proper shot.....also counts for Africa.....

 

[mark-hunter]

Rather a case of dont shoot if you do not have a proper shot.....also counts for Africa.....

True, but pressing factor in both of the cases (Africa or elsewhere) is "the last day of the hunt". Shoot, or wait next season, next year, or maybe never?

 

[Velo Dog]

Greetings fellow Hunters,

My dos centavos aren’t worth much to some folks and I’m Ok with that.
But, I figured I’d submit them anyway.

1.
Risking a shot slightly over one deer to hit one behind it, is bad cricket.
2.
Furthermore, when we wound an animal, it is our responsibility to put it out of its misery, as soon as possible.
If said wounded animal has disappeared and any hunting friend/s are available to help, they surely should help find it and end its suffering immediately.
3.
The .243 is a bit too light for animals that often go over 200 pounds / 90+ kilos and once in a great while, can even weigh 300 pounds / 135+ kilos.
Also, when their adrenaline is up, mule deer residing in Western North America often as not, can be difficult to put down.

On the .243 vs the impressively large mule deer buck topic, I definitely agree with those who have already said that shot placement is the highest priority and that, a properly constructed bullet is also important.
Those are definitely true, no matter what caliber.
Nonetheless, it remains my opinion that people should not choose the .243 for hunting mule deer.

For the N. American, average size deer critters (Impala & Reedbuck sized animals), it seems to me that sensible ballistics begin somewhere around the .257 Roberts and 120 grain bullet, bare bones minimum.
For big mule deer bucks, the 6.5 family of cartridges, with 140 grain bullet seems to me, would be a safe minimum ballistic level to select as a good starting point, when shopping for mule deer rifles.
And, there is not a thing wrong in using a .30-06 with 150 to 165 grainers for mule deer.

Before an angry mob surrounds my castle, brandishing torches, axes, pitch forks and such, demanding that I be brought forth, the following story applies:

While setting out to cull some critters with a Limpopo area PH (Hannes Swanepoel), he was armed with a scoped Sako .222 and 50 grain soft point spitzers.
Hannes is a very tough man but, he had just had neck surgery and was supposed to avoid recoil until the Surgeon/s declared otherwise.
I was equipped with a scoped Brno 600 in .30-06 and 220 grain Hornady round nose soft points.

At perhaps 80 to 100 paces, Hannes shot a blue wildebeest cow, aiming between the eyes.
She disappeared into the thorns.
When we found her again, she saw us and turned to run once more.
I hit her slap bang on the shoulder from about 50 to 75 paces and that was that.

Turns out, the little .222 bullet hit too high and off center.
It entered the front of the skull, just under the horn base on one side.
However, it fractured the skull, damaged the top of the brain, high on one side and exited the back of the skull.
The brain was lacerated but not much.
It had small skull fragments in it and the exit wound was a jagged hole about the size of a man’s thumb print.

The point being, use enough gun.
I do not contend that a large caliber will generally work well, if you hit your animal in a non-vital spot.
However, when a bullet strikes what is commonly considered to be a vital spot (in the wildebeest scenario—> actually the brain), but the animal runs off anyway, chances are, the caliber was too small or in some cases, the bullet failed to do its job in some way.

My Parting Shot as it were,
Not only do I agree with Robert Ruark’s statement, “Use enough gun”, but to such basic common sense, I will add that I prefer blunt shaped bullets for almost all of my hunting use, (out to about 300 paces or so).
With that, I suspect a flat nosed revolver bullet striking that wildebeest precisely on the same spot as the .222 did, would have instead taken the animal off its hooves, quickly.
But we will never know.

Likewise, I suspect that a flat nose .30-30 bullet striking the exact spot which the failed .243 struck that lost mule deer, would’ve instead put it down quickly.
Either way, no matter the caliber, trying to nick a bullet close over one deer, as the hunter’s plan to hit one behind it, was not cool.
And when some friend or family member of the original shooter’s family found the wounded buck, they should’ve immediately put it out of its misery.

Senile old man rant over.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[Altitude sickness]

It shocks me how many people think there is a “void” between the lungs and spine. Also most people aim and shoot too high on the chest.

Most animals get smaller in width and height as you move forward in the chest. And the spine takes a dramatic downward path towards the neck. The spine is almost a 1/3 of the down from the top of the visible back line.


So when a hunter sees an animal drop instantly at the shot. And windage isn’t a factor. The spinal process is usually the point of impact. This shocks the animal but is not fatal.

When I see an animal drop like a spine shot. Another arrow or round is on its way immediately.

The green line is where many beginners are told to aim. 1/2 way up the chest. Leaving little wiggle room.

The red line is the spinal process and is not the “Void”

 

[HankBuck]

Damn straight. When I am correct I stand up for myself. If I am wrong I am humble enough to admit it. This is not one of those times. Folks should care because it is quite evident that a lot of folks don't understand basic deer anatomy and that can lead to lost and/or wounded animals and unnecessary suffering.

@roklok - Yes “humble”, that’s the word I was searching for !!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

True, but pressing factor in both of the cases (Africa or elsewhere) is "the last day of the hunt". Shoot, or wait next season, next year, or maybe never?

In Montana everyone, even the kid who takes my money at the gas station, wishes me luck hunting. They see my license plates from half way across the continent and assume it's important to me that I kill something. My response is always "Hey, if I don't shoot em, I don't have to clean em." Of course I can't clean anything in Africa so the phrase is modified slightly: "If I don't shoot em, I don't have to pay for em." The point being for me hunting is more than just killing stuff. The scenery, watching my dogs work, and above all the challenge of the stalk. That's what I value most.

There's no sin in passing up a poor shot on the last day. My brother took a too-long shot at a monster buck the last day of season this year. Luckily I was able to track it down and finish the job with a running shot to the base of the skull before the poor wounded bugger jumped the fence on the other end of the property. Because we would have had to drive in to town to find that property owner, hopefully at home on Thanksgiving Day, and return to take up the track among hundreds of fresh tracks, the probability that we'd be gutting him if he jumped the fence was very low. It was very stressful to say the least.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It shocks me how many people think there is a “void” between the lungs and spine. Also most people aim and shoot too high on the chest.

Most animals get smaller in width and height as you move forward in the chest. And the spine takes a dramatic downward path towards the neck. The spine is almost a 1/3 of the down from the top of the visible back line.


So when a hunter sees an animal drop instantly at the shot. And windage isn’t a factor. The spinal process is usually the point of impact. This shocks the animal but is not fatal.

When I see an animal drop like a spine shot. Another arrow or round is on its way immediately.

The green line is where many beginners are told to aim. 1/2 way up the chest. Leaving little wiggle room.

The red line is the spinal process and is not the “Void”View attachment 655475

An animal that goes down on the shot never gets an automatic follow up shot from me. That's wasteful. It may not die from a shot in the spinal cord but only very rarely will it get back up after being hit ... with adequate firepower anyway (and no I do not consider 243 adequate for Montana deer). Walk up and if it's still alive put a finishing bullet where it won't damage the meat. Shooting a laying animal from a distance = putting the bullet through good meat when it's not necessary.

 

[steve white]

Just to be clear: it was a big whitetail deer, the range was under 160 yards--the deer ran, walked, then lay down at 160 yards in knee high grass. The light was failing fast. Though the hunter was very experienced, there is the chance he misunderstood how far down the shot needed to go in order to enter the vital cavity--there was some disagreement on anatomy on this forum. No doubt it was a very chancy shot even if executed perfectly, and my opinion--shaped partly by our discussion is that A. the shot should have been passed up, B. another shot or shots should have been delivered.
Caliber choice: still waiting on BobNelson35Wheelen!!

 

[mark-hunter]

Rather than get its adrenalin up, they let it lay until morning and planned to find it right there.

Why did they let the deer lay till next morning?
Reading initial post, this remains unclear.

I usually have compass with me during the hunt.
After a shot is taken, I take the compass bearing to the place where animal fell.
If remained there I can find it simply by walking in direction of the bearing of compass, in open fields.

It happened few times, I shot a roe buck in last moments of daylight. By the time I came to him, I would find him by compass in total darkness, or late dusk.
This works in open fields, tall grass and crop fields, and well downed animals

It looks like that decision to wait till next morning lead to a buck being lost.
If they went to him, this will bring them in position to correct marginal first shot.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Ridgerunner, I did take a look at the deer you posted. Thanks for making my point !! Your deer is clearly hit ABOVE the spine, not in some imaginary non vital zone between the lungs and spine. Again, this is a MYTH and does not exist. As I said, the spine is low over the shoulders, with long bones protruding to top of back. A shot through these is generally non fatal, but will often temporarily stun a deer. There was no blood in your deer's chest cavity because the slug did not go through chest cavity, it went ABOVE chest cavity AND spine. From looking at your picture it is immediately apparent that the shot was above the spine to anyone who knows big game anatomy.

But then where is s the void between the spine and the lungs located?

Okay, I'm just messed by with you!. Happy New Year!
Doug

 

[roklok]

Haha, Happy New Year !! Here's to 2025 !

 

[steve white]

Why did they let the deer lay till next morning?
Reading initial post, this remains unclear.

I usually have compass with me during the hunt.
After a shot is taken, I take the compass bearing to the place where animal fell.
If remained there I can find it simply by walking in direction of the bearing of compass, in open fields.

It happened few times, I shot a roe buck in last moments of daylight. By the time I came to him, I would find him by compass in total darkness, or late dusk.
This works in open fields, tall grass and crop fields, and well downed animals

It looks like that decision to wait till next morning lead to a buck being lost.
If they went to him, this will bring them in position to correct marginal first shot.

They waited because they knew the deer was still alive and were afraid it would jump up and take off under adrenalin rush. They assumed it would lay quietly and expire--it did not!

 

[mark-hunter]

I have seen two high shoulder shots, and remember PH reaction to this:

I shot waterbuck high shoulder, and he dropped on the spot. 375.
I said, high shoulder!
PH said, lets run to him! he can get up!
And, man, we were running!
Indeed, when we came up to him he was trying to stand up, legs struggling in the air.
One shot more needed to confirm the deal

Second occasion.
We were two hunters and PH:
I was just back up to other guy as agreed, it was his kudu to take.
300 win mag, high shoulder shot. Kudu dropped. I could see the dust cloud at point of impact on my scope.
PH said, basically, the same!
Lets run to him, before he gets up!
So, the other hunter came close, kudus legs struggling in the air, trying to turn and stand up.
last shot by other hunter finished it.

Point being, PH in each occasion, wanted fast response and immediate approach to downed animal.

It is another matter, if animal is walking or running away, clearly wounded. then of course, it needs to be given some time.

 

[Altitude sickness]

If the spinal cord is hit it won’t get up and will die quickly.

If the spinal process is hit, just above the actual spine. It will lay for a few minutes, get up and most likely not be recovered.

Above the redline and the deer can drop, get up and will run off. The blue line is the approx back and belly of the animal. Beginners are often told to aim for half way up from the belly. The green line.

If the animal is closer than the rifle is sighted for you get spine shots. It’s pretty common.

 

[HankBuck]

They waited because they knew the deer was still alive and were afraid it would jump up and take off under adrenalin rush. They assumed it would lay quietly and expire--it did not!

@steve white - I think waiting to locate & recover a possible wounded deer until daylight was the traditional “smart decision” and many (if not most) experienced hunters will do that. Even on the last day of the season or in States where you can’t Hunt Sundays (shot deer late Saturday) you are allowed to recover deer next day as long as you aren’t carrying a gun. Unless there are States that have a different law and even in that case I would call the Game Wardens office that evening and leave a message or explain the situation

 

[pilar]

Shooting a deer with a.243win and shooting buffalo with a 375 h&h are both the barest legal minimum in most cases , I don’t see people squealing about 375 as inadequate for the job on DG
Looks like lots of mistakes were made by the hunter, ! shot placement being #1
Just my 2ct worth on caliber choices .
Nobody wears glasses on their ass’s so should’ve, could’ve , would’ve hindsight is futile, lost trophy and luckly not a killer on the loose

 

[WI-2021]

Years ago I shot a running buck (poorly) with a 30-06. My shot placement ended up being similar to that described in the OP.

What was most interesting was the deer's reaction to the shot. Someone on the neighboring property had missed him and he ran onto our property. When I hit him, it was like he gradually went into slow motion. Within a few seconds and about 75 yards, he went from a dead run to a walk, and then laid down (not fell down, laid down) within sight of my stand and was looking around. My first shot had only been at a little over 50 yards, so he was still pretty close to me.

I hadn't fired a follow-up shot immediately because I wasn't sure exactly where everyone in my hunting party was at the time but knew that one of them was in the general direction of downrange from where the buck was laying. I quickly called him and determined his location and then finished the buck off.

Had I not been able to fire a second shot I'm convinced I would have been in a similar situation of potentially losing that buck. With that shot placement, I doubt it matters much what you hit them with, there's just nothing vital to hit right there.

 

[HankBuck]

Shooting a deer with a.243win and shooting buffalo with a 375 h&h are both the barest legal minimum in most cases , I don’t see people squealing about 375 as inadequate for the job on DG
Looks like lots of mistakes were made by the hunter, ! shot placement being #1
Just my 2ct worth on caliber choices .
Nobody wears glasses on their ass’s so should’ve, could’ve , would’ve hindsight is futile, lost trophy and luckly not a killer on the loose

@pilar - agree that “shot placement” is #1….and everything else is a very distant 2nd

 

[fourfive8]

If the spinal cord is hit it won’t get up and will die quickly.

If the spinal process is hit, just above the actual spine. It will lay for a few minutes, get up and most likely not be recovered.

Above the redline and the deer can drop, get up and will run off. The blue line is the approx back and belly of the animal. Beginners are often told to aim for half way up from the belly. The green line.

If the animal is closer than the rifle is sighted for you get spine shots. It’s pretty common.
View attachment 655569

Agreed. Another reason, IMO, for shooting high is anticipation of recoil by many shooters. That could even be classified as a type of flinch. Plus, the mechanical geometry of holding and managing a rifle favors the tendency to shoot high much more than to shoot low.

I have no idea where idea came from that there was a “void” of some sort near the spine. Maybe just hunters drawing the wrong conclusion after some animals fleeing following an immobilizing but temporary shock of hit near the spine??