A Case of Use Enough Gun?

[Ontario Hunter]

This unfortunate situation seems to stem from a string of poor decisions. Calibre choice, to take the shot in that situation, not following up etc etc.

A question to our US members - do things like 'tags' and 'seasons' matter when a an animal has been hit, but not found. Aren't you allowed (or rather 'required') to follow up, to ensure that the animal is put out of its misery, or if it can be determined that it is probably going to survive without too much suffering.

That last thing may be a bit hard of course, but I think you know what I mean.

An animal wounded on the last day or thereabouts can be finished after the season by the person who wounded it provided he calls it in to authorities BEFORE the season closes and is able to put it down immediately thereafter. And must call it in when the deed is done. At least that's how it was way back when I lived in Montana. It was not uncommon for hunters to take several days after close of season to retrieve an elk. This is one reason why many areas deep in the backcountry opened early. Season there stayed open till end of regular season, though in those days hunting in those areas effectively ended long before then due to inaccessibility from snow accumulation. Those carcasses could be retrieved over several weeks if needed (/possible!) without any hassles because general season was still open.

A wounded animal encountered several days or weeks after the season could not be destroyed by discoverer. Obviously, that would just be an opportunity for poaching. The discoverer should call it in and the authorities will come out and put it down. It is my understanding that the fairly new salvage regs in Montana do not allow for motorists who hit deer to put them down if not dead unless they have a valid general hunting tag and during hunting hours/season. If the animal is dead from collision, then they can salvage it by obtaining a separate salvage license (and keep regular season tag valid). However, I seriously doubt any game warden would cite a violator who puts an animal out of suffering if he can prove the injury was from vehicle accident (i.e. damage to vehicle). Interesting that, according to the regs, the salvage animal cannot be dressed on the spot. It must be removed whole.

 

[Beck]

This is what happens when you take a varmint rifle deer hunting. Irresponsible, and inhumane in my opinion.

 

[skydiver386]

Although I consider the 25's minimum for deer, this sounds like shot placement was the issue. If there is any doubt, I'd do everything to put a finishing shot in the animal if at all possible.

 

[AZDAVE]

I 2would say there is a responsibility to humanly put the animal down. I is wounded and still walking around hurt. It may recover but as tough as the montana and wyoming winters have been the last couple of years. It would be long odds he would make it through the winter. so If the son has a tag and it is still within the legal hunting season I would look high and low for that buck. and Use a 300 WM or bigger.

 

[Neophyte]

Use the biggest cartridge with the proper bullet.
.243 is marginal for poodles imo.

 

[Pilgrim]

I'm wondering why he didn't take a second shot before the deer layed down? Based on the original description it sounds like there may have been more opportunity. I personally don't stop shooting until I 100% know for sure it was mortally wounded.

 

[RR 314]

This is what happens when you take a varmint rifle deer hunting. Irresponsible, and inhumane in my opinion.

I think it is a case of putting a hole in the wrong place. When my son was six, I bought him a Browning Micro-Midas in .22-250. He practiced and I loaded Barnes TTSX for him. He killed a slew of deer and pigs with it and never had a deer go more than 40 yards or so after the shot. Heck, he only had one pig take a step! He has since done the same with 7mm-08, 280 AI, and 6.5 PRC. It is all about proper bullet selection and placement.

That being said, his younger sister loves my custom (unbraked) .340 Weatherby on Ed Brown .704 action. .

 

[CJW]

If a guy can't take a proper shot with a proper caliber and proper bullet, maybe he should find a different hobby.

An adult hunting whitetails, mulies or elk with a .243 is ridiculous IMO.

 

[TOBY458]

I think this is more a matter of poor shot placement, rather than too small of a caliber. Granted the 243 is on the small side, but it will kill any buck alive with good shot placement.

 

[steve white]

Well, I did witness a .243 killing a donkey sized mule deer DRT at a range of 90 yards with shot to the shoulder in Colorado. But I would have at LEAST taken the 25'06 since he had one.

In response to Ontario Hunter's post, I should correct myself--I checked with my friend ABOUT the hunt last week--it took place earlier this year, before the end of the season on Dec 2nd.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Curious as to what bullet, factory or handloaded ammo?

 

[steve white]

Curious as to what bullet, factory or handloaded ammo?

I'll have to ask. I don't think he hand loads at all.

 

[Major Bonkers]

'243 was well regarded by the Scots for stalking Red Deer, which generally are larger than white tail.'

I am afraid that we have to knock that one on the head right away.

A .243 is just legally acceptable, but you would have a hard time getting a proper stalker to allow you to 'take it on the hill'. A .270 or 6.5 is the de facto minimum (up to the usual .308 or 7mm).

I am hesitant to criticise in such a situation, where I was not present and do not know all the facts. Any experienced stalker or hunter has been in a position where they have wounded an animal which has then got away. However, we ought to respect our quarry, and that means giving it the mercy of as quick a death as is in our power to do so. What appears to be a gut-shot stag and leaving it to die overnight, expecting to come back in the morning to recover the carcass... sorry, no. Get off your fat arse and make the effort to put the animal down: then you can come back in the morning.

 

[HankBuck]

Warning: this may provoke a response from Bob Nelson...

Friend loses buck of a lifetime in Montana: Last week a friend passed up 7 bucks waiting for the monster seen on cameras. At last light, he appeared, but was surrounded by does. The only shot was a high chest shot, passing over the back of a smaller doe. He took the shot, hit the deer, and watched as it slowed from a run to a walk, then a stagger, and then a lay down in knee high grass, just short of the woods. It raised and lowered its head, and antlers could be seen, but the position for a shot was a guess. Range was about 160 yards. Rather than get its adrenalin up, they let it lay until morning and planned to find it right there.

That night it snowed. Deer had vanished in the night with any visible tracks or blood trail covered by snow. Searches were conducted even with outside help for three days. Buck not found. (no word whether dogs were employed) Son vowed to find the deer, father who shot it had to return to Graham, Texas. Buck was shot with a .243 Win.! Locals commented .243 was probably too light. Shot possibly went below spine, but shallow if at all into chest cavity proper. They all said that the same wound, but hit with a 300 Win mag, would probably have killed the buck, a massive, heavy racked 10 point in the best Montana tradition! "You can't kill them too dead" was the last comment offered. Shooter had elected not to take his 25'06 or 45-70...

Son called last night saying he found the deer...IT WAS STILL ALIVE, seen on two trail cams, limping around but eating. Will it make it though the winter? Should the son finish it off and him take "first blood" rights to the deer? Is it fair game, likely to be shot by another? Undecided.
The hunt was taken with the knowledge that this buck (+200 lbs) was the intended quarry. Comments?

@steve white - a Magnum does Not make up for poor shooting and if the shot hit “Below the spine But above the vitals” (sometimes called the Dead Zone) I doubt a .300 win mag or .375 H&H would matter….it was either a bad shot or a bad shot decision - trying to shoot “over a doe” that was blocking a trophy Buck. I have made similar mistakes and certainly made some bad shots but there is NO Magnum that would’ve saved the day for me. Also, if you can’t “relax and squeeze” a good shot from a .243 your “flinch” on a .300 win mag might be far worse.

 

[HankBuck]

This is what happens when you take a varmint rifle deer hunting. Irresponsible, and inhumane in my opinion.

@Beck - disappointment from poor shooting - blaming the gun or caliber, is easier then taking responsibility for making a Bad Shot. At some point that hunter had a “sight picture” of a vital zone and just MISSED it - bullet did Not strike where aimed….that’s the problem, a .223 or .22-250 would be leathal “if” IF it hits the vitals.
This was NOT a hard quartering away target and Not a Texas Heart Shot (ASS)….it was a bad shot. If that were me - I would be very disappointed, mad - at myself, my gun —- my Wife, Mother etc..

 

[Ridge Runner]

Just 2 weeks ago on a quota hunt using:

Weapon: Remington 11-87, 12 gauge, scoped rifled slug barrel,

Ammo: Remington Slugger Rifled Slugs, 12 gauge, 3 inch, 7/8 ounce slug, at 1885 fps, 50 yard zero.

Range: Guesstimated 50 to 60 yards, slightly uphill, full broadside, in the open.

shooting position: Standing unsupported, buttpad on shoulder strap of pack.

Shot went high right from point of aim.

This deer: bang-flop-slide down hill. On the second shot at another deer. The first deer got up and ran up hill. The final shot, on the first deer, a quartering to neck and head shot, on the first deer, was around 20 yard; DRT.

The drawn quota hunt for this area choices are: archery only or gun. The gun area allows for use of: archery, muzzleloader with single projectile, or shotgun with slugs only.

 

[Ridge Runner]

'243 was well regarded by the Scots for stalking Red Deer, which generally are larger than white tail.'

I am afraid that we have to knock that one on the head right away.

A .243 is just legally acceptable, but you would have a hard time getting a proper stalker to allow you to 'take it on the hill'. A .270 or 6.5 is the de facto minimum (up to the usual .308 or 7mm).

I am hesitant to criticise in such a situation, where I was not present and do not know all the facts. Any experienced stalker or hunter has been in a position where they have wounded an animal which has then got away. However, we ought to respect our quarry, and that means giving it the mercy of as quick a death as is in our power to do so. What appears to be a gut-shot stag and leaving it to die overnight, expecting to come back in the morning to recover the carcass... sorry, no. Get off your fat arse and make the effort to put the animal down: then you can come back in the morning.

Depending on the time of day. Here the OP implies the hunting day was ending. Depending on state hunting regs it may not be legal to track or search for a wounded deer after sunset/dark. Especially with weapon(s) and/or dogs.

It is also a common practice to allow an animal a chance to "bleed out" before starting to track to prevent spooking the animal and having to spend many, many, hours chasing the for miles and on to someone else's property. Once a deer crosses over a boundary/property line it can become a whole knew situation.

 

[roklok]

No, I do not believe this incident is a case of "use enough gun". It could possibly be a case of "use the right bullet", however It sounds like a case of poor shot placement and poor decisions to me. While the .243 would not be my first choice on a big Montana whitetail, I have killed a pile of blacktails (probably 20 or so) and a few whitetails with .243, if a proper .243 bullet is placed correctly it is very effective. In a lot of cases a .243 kills deer quicker and more dramatically than larger bullets due to velocity and quick energy transfer. The buck will most likely survive and be OK. A lot of folks don't realize how low the spine is over the shoulders, there is a lot of real estate between the spinal cord and top hairline on a buck. You will never convince me that the "no mans land" between the lungs/thoracic cavity and the spine exists. This is a myth. It is NOT POSSIBLE to put a projectile between the lung cavity and the spine on a deer. The spine is below the level of the top of the lung cavity (lungs go above spine on each side). I have butchered enough deer and other big game to know this. If the hunter had to shoot over a doe and only had a shot at the top of the buck, I think that answers the question.

 

[375Fox]

@steve white - a Magnum does Not make up for poor shooting and if the shot hit “Below the spine But above the vitals” (sometimes called the Dead Zone) I doubt a .300 win mag or .375 H&H would matter….it was either a bad shot or a bad shot decision - trying to shoot “over a doe” that was blocking a trophy Buck. I have made similar mistakes and certainly made some bad shots but there is NO Magnum that would’ve saved the day for me. Also, if you can’t “relax and squeeze” a good shot from a .243 your “flinch” on a .300 win mag might be far worse.

It doesn’t but it will give some additional flexibility. Most lead core hunting bullets will fragment/shed some weight. Those fragments on a larger heavier bullet from a more powerful cartridge will go further and do more damage outside the direct path of the bullet. A more powerful cartridge also makes a larger temporary wound channel with energy transfer. That’s why when you watch ballistic tests on gel blocks a larger cartridge will throw the block off the table when a smaller cartridge won’t. A larger more powerful cartridge does give more room for error. A heavier bullet will also penetrate more deeply. I think a 300 mag would have made a significant difference over a 243 in this case.

 

[Oldwavy]

Man, what a wild ride! I'm rooting for that buck's survival. Considering everything, I'd say let nature take its course. It's incredible the deer's still kicking after that shot. Finishing it off now might not be the right call. Let the buck live out its days, and if another hunter takes it, so be it. Your friend's son's got an epic story to share, and sometimes that's worth more than the kill.