A Case of Use Enough Gun?

[steve white]

Warning: this may provoke a response from Bob Nelson...

Friend loses buck of a lifetime in Montana: Last week a friend passed up 7 bucks waiting for the monster seen on cameras. At last light, he appeared, but was surrounded by does. The only shot was a high chest shot, passing over the back of a smaller doe. He took the shot, hit the deer, and watched as it slowed from a run to a walk, then a stagger, and then a lay down in knee high grass, just short of the woods. It raised and lowered its head, and antlers could be seen, but the position for a shot was a guess. Range was about 160 yards. Rather than get its adrenalin up, they let it lay until morning and planned to find it right there.

That night it snowed. Deer had vanished in the night with any visible tracks or blood trail covered by snow. Searches were conducted even with outside help for three days. Buck not found. (no word whether dogs were employed) Son vowed to find the deer, father who shot it had to return to Graham, Texas. Buck was shot with a .243 Win.! Locals commented .243 was probably too light. Shot possibly went below spine, but shallow if at all into chest cavity proper. They all said that the same wound, but hit with a 300 Win mag, would probably have killed the buck, a massive, heavy racked 10 point in the best Montana tradition! "You can't kill them too dead" was the last comment offered. Shooter had elected not to take his 25'06 or 45-70...

Son called last night saying he found the deer...IT WAS STILL ALIVE, seen on two trail cams, limping around but eating. Will it make it though the winter? Should the son finish it off and him take "first blood" rights to the deer? Is it fair game, likely to be shot by another? Undecided.
The hunt was taken with the knowledge that this buck (+200 lbs) was the intended quarry. Comments?

 

[Woodcarver]

Sounds like an "I told you so" will be forthcoming from the venerable Aussie soon, lol.
Gotta say though, taking a marginal shot with a minimal caliber is definitely a recipe for this kind of outcome. If the son has a valid tag, the correct thing to do would be to focus on putting that buck in the salt. Finish the job. It's the right thing to do as a hunter, and the humane thing to do for the buck.

 

[steve white]

Just saw trail cam pictures. It was a ten point, but with several stickers and heavy black pearling up from the bases. Wow.
BTW, what is the official scoring requirement for a sticker to count as a point, and are they included in total inches at measurement?

 

[Russ16]

Just saw trail cam pictures. It was a ten point, but with several stickers and heavy black pearling up from the bases. Wow.
BTW, what is the official scoring requirement for a sticker to count as a point, and are they included in total inches at measurement?

I don’t know the official rules but hoeing up the informal rule washing you could hang your wedding ring on it then it counted as a point.

Don’t know the whole situation but if I had an animal down where I could see it I would be hard pressed not to out another round in it. And I would say 243 is too light for big deer. Great light bodied Texas whitetail round but I woods trust it in Montana.

 

[MontanaGrant]

High chance it’ll survive. I’d bet anything the round passed above the body cavity and right below the spine. Good window for a non lethal hit there.

I’ve seen a deer hit there with a .280 survive and see him the next year. Seen others hit there and then later on several weeks later. Cant confirm they survived years long but I doubt they died to bullet wound.

Generally been super tough bullets that punch through without expanding, or light bullets lacking energy at longer range.

A .300 mag have helped. At least knocked him over but overall I’d say just a poor shot the deer would have decent odds regardless

 

[LimbNoMo]

I don’t think this is a question of how much gun, but rather a question of hunting ethics.

 

[mark-hunter]

The hunt was taken with the knowledge that this buck (+200 lbs) was the intended quarry. Comments?

I hunt roe bucks (animal of 60 pounds) with 30-06, 180 grainer, fast expansion bullet and
European boars with 9.3x62.
I really believe bigger is better.
I also am no fan of 243 caliber, i see nothing in that cartridge that appeals to me. Above scenario is exactly that I fear from.

If choosing between calibers is no issue, like if your friends had number of other calibers at disposal, I see no reason why wouldn't he choose something with better punch for such big animal, especially since he planned entire hunt for that deer.

 

[Newboomer]

I hunt roe bucks (animal of 60 pounds) with 30-06, 180 grainer, fast expansion bullet and
European boars with 9.3x62.
I really believe bigger is better.
I also am no fan of 243 caliber, i see nothing in that cartridge that appeals to me. Above scenario is exactly that I fear from.

If choosing between calibers is no issue, like if your friends had number of other calibers at disposal, I see no reason why wouldn't he choose something with better punch for such big animal, especially since he planned entire hunt for that deer.

I have a whitetail rack on my wall from a real survivor.That old guy had a knob from buckshot on every rib on his left side. His neck was full of shot and his left rear leg had pieces of lead in it. He was pretty gray around the head and had holes in his ears from being shot. Best estimate he was around 10 years old. How he lasted that long is a miracle. I caught him under an apple tree where I was sitting for partridge--with a .22 and LR hollowpoints. One shot in the ear at about 50 feet did it.

He was a trophy but almost inedible, real strong and so damn tough you could hardly stick a fork in the gravy. Small calibers will do the job but conditions have to be almost perfect. I called that one a lucky situation but wouldn't recommend it.

 

[CZDiesel]

No a 300 would have caused less damage passing through. The 243Win is great White Tail medicine!
Just a rare shot that although hits it ultimately misses any critical areas

 

[mark-hunter]

I caught him under an apple tree where I was sitting for partridge--with a .22 and LR hollowpoints. One shot in the ear at about 50 feet did it.

I had my adventures with 22. But thinking in retrospect, i would never repeat them. My adventures were mainly due to fact, that 22 was accessible to me as a kid, and ammo was available, and it was fairly quiet...

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Warning: this may provoke a response from Bob Nelson...

Friend loses buck of a lifetime in Montana: Last week a friend passed up 7 bucks waiting for the monster seen on cameras. At last light, he appeared, but was surrounded by does. The only shot was a high chest shot, passing over the back of a smaller doe. He took the shot, hit the deer, and watched as it slowed from a run to a walk, then a stagger, and then a lay down in knee high grass, just short of the woods. It raised and lowered its head, and antlers could be seen, but the position for a shot was a guess. Range was about 160 yards. Rather than get its adrenalin up, they let it lay until morning and planned to find it right there.

That night it snowed. Deer had vanished in the night with any visible tracks or blood trail covered by snow. Searches were conducted even with outside help for three days. Buck not found. (no word whether dogs were employed) Son vowed to find the deer, father who shot it had to return to Graham, Texas. Buck was shot with a .243 Win.! Locals commented .243 was probably too light. Shot possibly went below spine, but shallow if at all into chest cavity proper. They all said that the same wound, but hit with a 300 Win mag, would probably have killed the buck, a massive, heavy racked 10 point in the best Montana tradition! "You can't kill them too dead" was the last comment offered. Shooter had elected not to take his 25'06 or 45-70...

Son called last night saying he found the deer...IT WAS STILL ALIVE, seen on two trail cams, limping around but eating. Will it make it though the winter? Should the son finish it off and him take "first blood" rights to the deer? Is it fair game, likely to be shot by another? Undecided.
The hunt was taken with the knowledge that this buck (+200 lbs) was the intended quarry. Comments?

The season is closed in Montana. Closed Dec 2nd. The son cannot legally kill the deer now. Hope it survives the winter.

 

[R eight]

As a kid I shot a lot of game, brumbies and pigs, with a Remington 700 in .243 Winchester. I preferred the 85 grain Sierra HP in her and so long as you hit them in the right spot they died. I found most 80 grain soft points were very marginal on pigs and on brumbies.

I wouldn’t choose to hunt with a.243 now. But, if that’s all you have then, with the right bullet and proper shot selection it’ll work….mostly.

 

[cmk]

This unfortunate situation seems to stem from a string of poor decisions. Calibre choice, to take the shot in that situation, not following up etc etc.

A question to our US members - do things like 'tags' and 'seasons' matter when a an animal has been hit, but not found. Aren't you allowed (or rather 'required') to follow up, to ensure that the animal is put out of its misery, or if it can be determined that it is probably going to survive without too much suffering.

That last thing may be a bit hard of course, but I think you know what I mean.

 

[375Fox]

If you want to go meat hunting and wait for perfect shots I think you can ethically use a smaller marginal cartridge. If you want to go trophy hunting and take less than perfect shots when they are presented I think you need to take a proper cartridge. I hate hearing these type stories.

 

[375Fox]

A question to our US members - do things like 'tags' and 'seasons' matter when a an animal has been hit, but not found. Aren't you allowed (or rather 'required') to follow up, to ensure that the animal is put out of its misery, or if it can be determined that it is probably going to survive without too much suffering.

That last thing may be a bit hard of course, but I think you know what I mean.

It is dependent on the state regulations but generally if you don’t find the animal to put your tag on your tag is not filled. I get extremely frustrated finding dead bucks on mine and family property that the neighbors didn’t properly follow or took marginal shots on. Something I appreciate about hunting in Europe is the effort that is put in to recover every animal. Unfortunately, I think those ethics are often absent in US hunting. For your question on seasons though, if it’s the last evening and you wound an animal you cannot pursue it the next day, wounded or not once season has closed. Maybe you could get a state game warden to finish it off under the right circumstances, but it’s unlikely.

 

[Certus]

I don’t know the official rules but hoeing up the informal rule washing you could hang your wedding ring on it then it counted as a point.

Don’t know the whole situation but if I had an animal down where I could see it I would be hard pressed not to out another round in it. And I would say 243 is too light for big deer. Great light bodied Texas whitetail round but I woods trust it in Montana.

243 was well regarded by the Scotts for stalking Red Deer, which generally are larger than white tail.
It’s also regarded as one of the best white tail cartridges, I read. That may be because of its recoil though for youth and what not, haven’t really read up on why.

 

[Luvthunt]

Not fair to count the out the 243 as it is the bullet that creates the action So first question should be what bullet was used and was it loaded to what vel. Next question is there a significant difference in 24 vs 25 cal. and would most people agree that a 25 was too small.
Interesting subject. As always at least for the most it is not what you hit them with but where you hit them.

 

[Bandera]

We had one deer hit with high back shot from a 270 go down like the hand of god hit it and then get up and run off.
I hit one high in the back with the 30-30 again went down like the hand of god hit it, I levered a second round and put a neck shot on him when he got up.

 

[WyoBull]

Not a problem with the caliber at all. The problem was shot placement. He hit “no man’s land”, between the spine and the top of the lungs.
I have seen it happen on elk and deer with a lot larger calibers than the [emoji[emoji6][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]] Win only to have a lost animal.
I do not hesitate to take my Win deer hunting and have a very high degree of confidence in its capabilities. I hand load with Barnes [emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]] gr TTSX above the stated velocities of the factory Vortex loads with the same bullet.

 

[steve white]

The near miss so far is that Bob Nelson hasn't chimed in yet to chide us all!! lol