9mm semi auto carbine

[wesheltonj]

I have not been in the position of actually having to pull the trigger indoors (other then indoor ranges) but kept Glaser safety slugs loaded up for indoor use, to prevent the round going thru the interior walls. That said they are quite expensive per round and would cost a small fortune to load up a drum mag of those. That said during these time, I took out the safety slugs and have replaced them with hollow points. Then this is over assuming I am still above ground, I will go back to the safety slugs.

 

[Standard Velocity]

My 870 groups #1 buckshot within a paper plate in the longest straightaway in my home and within 4” for the vast majority of likely distances. 00 and slugs are on the buttstock just in case.

If I am ever forced to use it I’m sure I’d prefer a Gatling gun but it’s what I decided to go with.

The vast majority of the shooting I’ve ever done has been outside on private property. Fortunate and spoiled I am. However, I have gone to covered public outdoor ranges as well as indoor ranges. Snub nosed magnum revolvers, centerfire deer rifles and AR pattern rifles with muzzle brakes were the most noticeably obnoxiously loud guns at indoor ranges. I also tested the difference between all of my likely defense guns at an indoor range with no ear protection to see if any of them would be detrimental in such a situation. Surely not good for your ears but possibly an a** saver so it felt like a reasonable trade off. There was a huge difference between my 1911 and a snub nosed 357.

For the uninitiated, who is completely inexperienced in close quarters combat, there may be mitigating factors in this decision. I am fortunate enough to have never pulled the trigger in a defensive situation. For me a familiar manual of arms, limited penetration, maintaining situational awareness (sight and sound) and the ability of my better half to use it competently are of priority.

Sound suppressors are becoming more popular and the hoops to jump through a bit more streamlined. I know the 223 maintains velocity with fairly short barrels but haven’t done the research to see where the point of diminishing returns occurs with both barrel length and suppressor length. The sonic crack is still there but less of a concern than the concussion of escaping gases. If I need six inches of suppressor on ten inches of barrel and get velocity too low to ensure fragmentation I’m not sure I gained anything. Not saying that is the case, but would be a concern of mine.

 

[mdwest]

Simply put, every subject matter expert in CQB in the western world that has been in an actual gunfight in the last 20 years will tell you that you are wrong..

I mean, what would an FBI certified firearms instructor, NRA, and 2 state certified firearms instructor, who was a CQB instructor for a large metropolitan police department and an adjunct instructor at his state police academy on SWAT tactics, that spent a decade in an army special operations unit, and has conducted hundreds of live raids in an urban environment know about fighting in close quarters?

But..dont take my word for it.. you keep believing what you want to... Its your life after all..

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Military’s all over the world are buying 11.5 inch barreled HK 416 for there special operations groups.

 

[perttime]

Can the Tavor be used ambidextrously? Like around corners, both ways? I know that the AUG is hopeless, trying to shoot it weak side.

 

[Ed Lally]

There are as many choices for CQB firearms as there are opinions. If looking for a 9mm or .40 S&W or .45 carbine, consider the Beretta Storm CX4 availably in all 3 calibers. Comes with 10 round mags (in .40 S&W) but can be converted to 13 or 14 rounds mags. I did the conversion but then sold the firearm. Lots of fun to shoot and a natural if you shoot a Berrata pistol. Short, light, low recoil, easy for kids and the wife to shoot well. Good in confined spaces. My home protection choice is a UTAS 15, a 14+1 pump action bullpup shotgun with built-in light and laser. I use #4 buck as it penetrates less but still speaks with authority.

 

[DmacD]

Not an expert, but Canadian, living in Canada.
As I understand it, defending your home, property, life, etc. here in Canada is not against the law. Defending it with a firearm, however, is. To do so would imply "Premeditated intent to cause harm" in the eyes of the law, (or some similar such legal phrase, I am not quoting directly from the book). Finding an intruder in your home, then making a snap decision to grab whatever may be handy, hockey stick, flyswatter, can of corn, and bashing said intruder in the head would be fine. Shooting the intruder will land you in hot water, probably in jail also. Shooting the intruder and turning him into an quadriplegic, well then you are really hooped, because that guy's lawyer will make it their mission to cripple you financially, then put you in jail.
If it sounds ridiculous, that is because it is.
Firearm ownership in Canada is looked upon not as a right, but as a privilege, like having a Driver's License. If you can demonstrate that you are safe and can pass all of the courses and checks, you are good to go.
Now, as for a Carbine sized 9mm of some sort, they sound like a fun day out on the range. I just saw an ad for a Chiappa, chambered in 9mm, that was made to resemble the M1 Carbine. Cheap shooting with not a lot of kick to the shoulder.
Oh yeah, in answer to whoever asked, suppressors are a definite no-go here.

 

[Von S.]

Hahaha......

Boys.....the idea is to keep them..... whomever "them" is....... from getting into your hacienda to begin with.

A high cap semi auto 9mm pistol round rifle is kinda funny to me as it's my opinion that it just doesn't do much of anything right........ other than it just does it a whole lot of times.

....though in many ways better than a pistol.

If you have to gun down your fellow man due to some possible problems. ..... put them down hard and fast.

 

[Tango]

Listen to mdwest, that’s the no BS answer. If a pistol cal carbine or shotgun is what you have then by all means run it, but given a choice, a modern high-quality 556 in an AR or X95 Tavor (new IWI bullpup that’s fantastic) pattern WITH modern expanding duty ammo is without equal for serious defensive use. 9mm JHPs from a carbine length barrel can have some serious over-penetration issues in addition to not being anywhere near as potent as a 556 round. Get a quality 556 carbine, an Aimpoint dot and a white light then learn to run it with the dedication you’d give a DG rifle/hunt. They’re incredibly accurate, reliable and easy to operate. I love range fun with an Uzi, Colt SMG, Ruger PCC or MP5 but the 9mm carbine ship sailed a long time ago when it comes to defensive work.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Not an expert, but Canadian, living in Canada.
As I understand it, defending your home, property, life, etc. here in Canada is not against the law. Defending it with a firearm, however, is. To do so would imply "Premeditated intent to cause harm" in the eyes of the law, (or some similar such legal phrase, I am not quoting directly from the book). Finding an intruder in your home, then making a snap decision to grab whatever may be handy, hockey stick, flyswatter, can of corn, and bashing said intruder in the head would be fine. Shooting the intruder will land you in hot water, probably in jail also. Shooting the intruder and turning him into an quadriplegic, well then you are really hooped, because that guy's lawyer will make it their mission to cripple you financially, then put you in jail.
If it sounds ridiculous, that is because it is.
Firearm ownership in Canada is looked upon not as a right, but as a privilege, like having a Driver's License. If you can demonstrate that you are safe and can pass all of the courses and checks, you are good to go.
Now, as for a Carbine sized 9mm of some sort, they sound like a fun day out on the range. I just saw an ad for a Chiappa, chambered in 9mm, that was made to resemble the M1 Carbine. Cheap shooting with not a lot of kick to the shoulder.
Oh yeah, in answer to whoever asked, suppressors are a definite no-go here.

Sounds like our law abiding friends to the north need a Dobie-a-matic, assuming Trump will allow their export.

 

[Ed Lally]

"an Aimpoint and a white light" - exceptionally good advice on any firearm. You can't shoot what you can't see and you might not want to shoot what you can see, such as your daughter's boyfriend who is sneaking into the house. You might want shoot him if he is sneaking out but that is a different issue. I would forgo the Aimpoint in favor of a Laser, color of your choice, as it assists in aiming without having your eye on an optic sight and in home defense situations, the range is so short that I don't believe you do not an optic to aim. I know of one case where the laser dancing on the perp's chest was such a convincing inducement to leave the premises that the perp dove out of a window.

 

[Tango]

You want a quality optic that gives you precision and speed at all reasonable ranges. That’s not a laser. A good non-magnified optic is incredibly fast and precise from contact to 200+ yards. Train and learn your close range offset also.

 

[DmacD]

Sounds like our law abiding friends to the north need a Dobie-a-matic, assuming Trump will allow their export.

View attachment 340198

Ha, The Far Side! Have not seen that cartoon in years!
As for being released up here, I'm sure it can be had, just have to pay the duty!

 

[Rick Cox]

Not an expert, but Canadian, living in Canada.
As I understand it, defending your home, property, life, etc. here in Canada is not against the law. Defending it with a firearm, however, is. To do so would imply "Premeditated intent to cause harm" in the eyes of the law, (or some similar such legal phrase, I am not quoting directly from the book). Finding an intruder in your home, then making a snap decision to grab whatever may be handy, hockey stick, flyswatter, can of corn, and bashing said intruder in the head would be fine. Shooting the intruder will land you in hot water, probably in jail also. Shooting the intruder and turning him into an quadriplegic, well then you are really hooped, because that guy's lawyer will make it their mission to cripple you financially, then put you in jail.
If it sounds ridiculous, that is because it is.
Firearm ownership in Canada is looked upon not as a right, but as a privilege, like having a Driver's License. If you can demonstrate that you are safe and can pass all of the courses and checks, you are good to go.
Now, as for a Carbine sized 9mm of some sort, they sound like a fun day out on the range. I just saw an ad for a Chiappa, chambered in 9mm, that was made to resemble the M1 Carbine. Cheap shooting with not a lot of kick to the shoulder.
Oh yeah, in answer to whoever asked, suppressors are a definite no-go here.

You are a total party pooper.

 

[flatwater bill]

FWIW on overpenetration........B.O. on YouTube shows 9mm carbine shooting 124 grn FMJ at 1296fps and 5.56mm Colt (223) firing 55 grn ball ammo at 2820fps penetrating 3/8" sheetrock. Both penetrated 22 sheets....exactly the same which surprised me. All bullets from each were found intact after every shot.....FWB

 

[Ray B]

Well let's see: Canada has more restrictive federal laws on handguns than the US, my impression is that Canadian laws aren't much different than several US cities. Now given the general trend where we have burglars released on PR and the store employee being held without bail; prisons being emptied of violent criminals yet clergy that violated the 10 person assembly rule imprisoned. I don't know that any firearm will solve for more than a short time, the problems facing those that reside particularly in urban areas. About all that you can do is build an effective hiding place so that when the robbers come they will only be able to take things. It used to be the rare case where a homeowner injured a burglar and ended up on the wrong side of a judgment- but now it's more common than not. Being on the spaceship to colonize the moon is sounding better all the time.

 

[DmacD]

You are a total party pooper.

Ha, sorry Rick, didn't mean to come off like the Skunk at the Garden Party and hi-jack your thread. I realize that pretty much most of us are well aware of how it works up here, I think I put the response down more so our American friends could get an idea of how it is for us.
I really like the idea of the 9mm carbine for messing around, gonging metal and such. The Chiappa I mentioned was a prize on GUNPOST .ca, if it is of any interest. I saw somewhere, probably on this site, where someone took a Martini-Henry type single action and chamber it for the 9mm. Something along the lines of a Garden, or Rook rifle I think. An old-school carbine, sort of thing that would really pique my interest.

 

[Rick Cox]

Not an expert, but Canadian, living in Canada.
As I understand it, defending your home, property, life, etc. here in Canada is not against the law. Defending it with a firearm, however, is. To do so would imply "Premeditated intent to cause harm" in the eyes of the law, (or some similar such legal phrase, I am not quoting directly from the book). Finding an intruder in your home, then making a snap decision to grab whatever may be handy, hockey stick, flyswatter, can of corn, and bashing said intruder in the head would be fine. Shooting the intruder will land you in hot water, probably in jail also. Shooting the intruder and turning him into an quadriplegic, well then you are really hooped, because that guy's lawyer will make it their mission to cripple you financially, then put you in jail.
If it sounds ridiculous, that is because it is.
Firearm ownership in Canada is looked upon not as a right, but as a privilege, like having a Driver's License. If you can demonstrate that you are safe and can pass all of the courses and checks, you are good to go.
Now, as for a Carbine sized 9mm of some sort, they sound like a fun day out on the range. I just saw an ad for a Chiappa, chambered in 9mm, that was made to resemble the M1 Carbine. Cheap shooting with not a lot of kick to the shoulder.
Oh yeah, in answer to whoever asked, suppressors are a definite no-go here.

First of all I know you can't just shoot someone here for being in your house, or protecting your property, but in cases where it can be shown you or your family were under serious threat, you will most likely get off. Which to my mind is better than getting dead. I have heard that if you shoot someone in your house, make sure they are dead.
Having said that I have never felt I needed a firearm in the house for protection from humans. Why it would take something drastic, say a world wide pandemic, causing massive job loss, unemployment, poverty, social structure collapse, and desperation as people struggle to survive... but of course this is just me. I have been accused many times of having an over active imagination.
Seriously though, if you came home and a few guys were taking turns raping your wife and daughter I doubt you would say " Sorry honey, I would shoot them but I might get in trouble".

 

[Rick Cox]

Simply put, every subject matter expert in CQB in the western world that has been in an actual gunfight in the last 20 years will tell you that you are wrong..

I mean, what would an FBI certified firearms instructor, NRA, and 2 state certified firearms instructor, who was a CQB instructor for a large metropolitan police department and an adjunct instructor at his state police academy on SWAT tactics, that spent a decade in an army special operations unit, and has conducted hundreds of live raids in an urban environment know about fighting in close quarters?

But..dont take my word for it.. you keep believing what you want to... Its your life after all..

I'm not clear who you were directing your last post to, you have convinced me to forget the 9mm idea and stay with .223/5.56. If I do go that way. At any rate it's great when folks with true experience weigh in. Thanks. I bet you have stories to tell!

 

[John Camp]

There are as many choices for CQB firearms as there are opinions. If looking for a 9mm or .40 S&W or .45 carbine, consider the Beretta Storm CX4 availably in all 3 calibers. Comes with 10 round mags (in .40 S&W) but can be converted to 13 or 14 rounds mags. I did the conversion but then sold the firearm. Lots of fun to shoot and a natural if you shoot a Berrata pistol. Short, light, low recoil, easy for kids and the wife to shoot well. Good in confined spaces. My home protection choice is a UTAS 15, a 14+1 pump action bullpup shotgun with built-in light and laser. I use #4 buck as it penetrates less but still speaks with authority.

I have recently taken an interest in the CX4. Seems it would do job. Very maneuverable, good fire power, takes 20 round mags.