9.3x62mm vs. .375 H&H Mag

[Nhoro]

If you are purely looking to load up the 9.3x62 to the original 375H&H ballistics, yes it is possible.

The real question is why?

Only reason I can come up with is a Zimbabwean example. 9,3 x 62 is simply not legal for elephant, hippo and buffalo. It doesn't quite make the energy requirement (3909 ft lbs) So with a little increase of velocity, it becomes legal. I don't think any current factory ammo will do it but I believe handloading can achieve sufficient velocity. This is no comment on the efficacy of the 9,3, it has proved sufficient for many elephant.

 

[Nhoro]

If I was arguing that the killing power of the 9.3 in modern loads was greater than the original loadings of the 375 H&H, I would look no further than modern bullets. Indeed that argument was available before modern bullets, at least according to Don Heath. I believe he had said the 9.3x62 was superior to the 375 H&H before the modern age because .375 bullets performed poorly.

As I recall (and someone will probably be along to correct me shortly ) ALL solids across calibres suffered the same failures- it became infamous with the 458 win mag but was also the case with 375 h&h. I believe it was Winchester ammo and they used gilding metal instead of a steel jacket for a number of years (during the 80's I think)

 

[sgt_zim]

Only reason I can come up with is a Zimbabwean example. 9,3 x 62 is simply not legal for elephant, hippo and buffalo. It doesn't quite make the energy requirement (3909 ft lbs) So with a little increase of velocity, it becomes legal. I don't think any current factory ammo will do it but I believe handloading can achieve sufficient velocity. This is no comment on the efficacy of the 9,3, it has proved sufficient for many elephant.

Even most of the factory loads for 375 just barely squeak by that energy requirement.

If one reloads, and one's very best group for a 300 gr bullet has MV of ~2400, it falls short of the energy requirement as well.

I had a running correspondence with Phillip Smythe of Ivory Trails, he was more than willing to have me use my 9.3 for buff. Never met the guy in person, but I was heartbroken over his ele encounter last year. He always came off as the quintessential Old World Gentleman to me.

I'd have to get my Oryx or A Frames up to about 2500 for them to meet the energy requirements in my 9.3. I had toyed with that a while back, but decided anything in the 2350 range was good enough.

 

[Nhoro]

Yes, Phil was a great guy. Many people use the 9,3 - here in zim the law I usually taken as a suggestion rather than a requirement I saw Phils wife and kids this weekend at a friend's baby dedication. They are holding up but it must be tough.

 

[hawkeyesatx]

Even most of the factory loads for 375 just barely squeak by that energy requirement.

If one reloads, and one's very best group for a 300 gr bullet has MV of ~2400, it falls short of the energy requirement as well.

I had a running correspondence with Phillip Smythe of Ivory Trails, he was more than willing to have me use my 9.3 for buff. Never met the guy in person, but I was heartbroken over his ele encounter last year. He always came off as the quintessential Old World Gentleman to me.

I'd have to get my Oryx or A Frames up to about 2500 for them to meet the energy requirements in my 9.3. I had toyed with that a while back, but decided anything in the 2350 range was good enough.

I’m seriously thinking about pushing the 285-286gr bullets to around 2450-2460 fps. Not really going to hot-rod it that much. That gets around 3877 ft-lbs. But only if the accuracy is there.
I have 100 Hornady 286gr DG RP bullets, to go with 100 Lapua cases. That should be enough to come up with an awesome load, I would think!

Hawk

 

[jwp475]

The 9.3 can't ever equal a 375. .375 bullet diameter VS .366 bullet diameter. Point, set, match 375

 

[John Wasmuth]

Can’t base a cartridges effectiveness on diameter of projectile alone.

 

[reineke]

I don't know anything about reloading - and the 9,3x62 always was a good all around caliber for Africa as well. But why all that fuss about increasing the pressure when you simply can use the 9,3x64? I have shot nearly all my bigger PG and some DG with that caliber, and it is for sure equal to the .375 H&H . Invented 1927 by Wilhelm Brenneke it was widely used in Africa even for DG and by some rated even above the .375 H&H. But by changing the legal requirements for DG to a bullet diameter of 9,5 Millimeter in the British and the former German Colonies, the British Government saved the .375's Ass,
so to say..... And the 9,3 fits into a normal Mauser-System, whereas the .375 needs the Magnum System or a lot of expensive gunsmithing.

 

[jwp475]

Can’t base a cartridges effectiveness on diameter of projectile alone.

I though the velocities had already been compared. Try to keep up.

 

[reineke]

And John has it right regarding the bullet diameter. And to Jaegger: the .375 is much older than the 9,3x64, as far as I know!

 

[IvW]

Well…
I had a .375 H&H way back in the late 80’s. Unfortunately, I had to let it go when I got a divorce, to pay my lawyers retainer.
Unfortunately, I haven’t been lucky enough to afford another .375, but I have been able to get a 9.3x62.
I’m very much in the same boat that the German settlers were in, but can afford 9.3x62 rifle, and components now.
But, as being a prior .375 H&H owner, I see a lot of similarities between the 2 cartridges, and seeing promise in a stoutly loaded 9.3 compared to the old .375 H&H loads.

Hawk

No need to push a 9.3 its reputation comes with the original loads and the Germans who can shoot....I never understand the need for speed....
Never had any authorities test any loads.....
9.3x74R with the right bullet will kill anything as dead as a hotrod 9.3 or 375 with the right shot placement....

Yes there is the legal caliber issue but if 375 is the minimum no hot rodding any 9.3 will change that.....where energy is the limit....nobody going to test it.....

 

[IvW]

Totally agree Bob. I won’t go any bigger. All three perform well. I doubt that there is any practical difference between the 9.3 and .375 on buffalo. The Lott has a dramatically greater effect on them and allows shots you would not take with the others if your shooting is up to the mark.

How does a bigger caliber allow shots you could not take with the others?
If you are refering to a full frontal shot on buffalo I concur, if not then I disagree.....quartering or broadside you either have a shot or not...9.3 all the way up to 500.
A well placed shot with a premium bullet with a 9.3, 375 or lott or whatever=dead buffalo...
Shoot it in the arse with whatever....you have a problem....

 

[Rick HOlbert]

Hello all!

I’ve been doing some homework into the whole .375 H&H Mag vs 9.3x62mm business.
Now, what I have to say on the matter is this….

The .375 H&H has a decided advantage over the the 9.3x62mm only when the 9.3x62 is loaded to original pressures.

Now, with that being said, once you start loading the 9.3x62 to 64k psi, the same pressure the .375 H&H runs at, they are pretty much equal.

Yes, I can hear the gasps, and the snorts of derision already coming about from what I just said, from the die hard .375 H&H fans.

But, I am not just callously saying that to stir the pot, so to say, nor am I trying to cause a fight.
I do have data to back up what I’ve said, and will post said data in pic form after I am done writing here.

I also want to let everyone know that, the data for the .375 H&H is with a standard 24 inch barrel, whereas the 9.3x62mm data is with a 22 inch barrel.

If the 9.3x62mm is given a 24 inch barrel, and a modern, strong bolt action, there isn’t any reason to not load it to such pressures, except for maybe one, and that’s free recoil.

I hope to open a few eyes to those who may be on the fence about getting a 9.3x62mm, and hopefully opening the eyes of those who are objective .375 H&H aficionado’s too.

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen
I’ve been taking a play out of your playbook, and have applied it to the good Ol’ 9.3x62mm.
Plus, there is another gentleman by the name of Bob Mitchell here in the states, who has done the same thing.


Hawk

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Hello Hawk, like yourself I reload also. (58 years worth) I shoot/load for both 375 H&H and the 9.3X62. I fully agree that with modern powders and worked up load data the 9.3X62 will and can deliver 95% of what the 375 has to offer in factory loads. Factory ammunition has been held down to original pressure levels but boost the pressure to modern levels and it becomes a horse of a different color. Where legal I would not hesitate to use it on buffalo with the right bullet.

 

[Rick HOlbert]

Almost forgot, I'll add a qualifier. I will always chase accuracy over velocity but it's nice to know the potential is there if needed.

 

[sgt_zim]

Curious as to thoughts on the efficacy of Norma Oryx 285 gr for cape buff. I have 286 gr SAF (none loaded up yet), but my Normas give such amazing accuracy. Haven't read any accounts of Oryx 285 on cape buffalo, but I have seen accounts of 375HH with 300 gr Oryx, and the results have been stellar.

 

[hawkeyesatx]

Curious as to thoughts on the efficacy of Norma Oryx 285 gr for cape buff. I have 286 gr SAF (none loaded up yet), but my Normas give such amazing accuracy. Haven't read any accounts of Oryx 285 on cape buffalo, but I have seen accounts of 375HH with 300 gr Oryx, and the results have been stellar.

I could be wrong, but I would imagine they would work as well as the .375 300 gr Oryx.
The 9.3’s have really good SD numbers.

Hawk

 

[hawkeyesatx]

Almost forgot, I'll add a qualifier. I will always chase accuracy over velocity but it's nice to know the potential is there if needed.

I have to agree with you about both posts.

Hawk

 

[sgt_zim]

Well, there is the difference in MV, and a mass difference of 14 grains. Otherwise, 285/286 9.3 is the same SD as 300 gr 375 - .305 for both.

We will see, I imagine. I have black bear next year, and either nilgai or bison for 2023. Maybe '24 will be the year I get infected with Africa-itis.

 

[Opposite Pole]

Curious as to thoughts on the efficacy of Norma Oryx 285 gr for cape buff. I have 286 gr SAF (none loaded up yet), but my Normas give such amazing accuracy. Haven't read any accounts of Oryx 285 on cape buffalo, but I have seen accounts of 375HH with 300 gr Oryx, and the results have been stellar.

Has anyone tried the 9.3 325gr Oryx?

 

[sgt_zim]

Has anyone tried the 9.3 325gr Oryx?

That and the Woodleigh 320 gr have both been on my RADAR for a while. But...

I have almost 2 boxes of Oryx 285, 2 boxes of SAF 286, a box-and-a-half of Hornady 286, and the same for Speer 270.

Interestingly, that 325 gr oryx matches velocity with 325 gr 45-70 loads. much higher SD with the 9.3 bullets, but they both deliver about the same energy.