7x64 Brenneke - Opinions

[Saul]

not so.
in their own right they are both equal.
the big advantage of the original is that std 280 rem ammunition can be fired in the ackley chamber.
it will just fireform with no headspace issues.
thgis is because the old chamber was a crush fit on the std case, as were all ackleys, 250/300, 25/06, 30/06, 270, 220 swift etc.
the nosler version has longer headspace, and the only way to fireform std cases is to seat bullets hard into the rifling with much neck tension.
firing a 280 rem, or an original ackley round in the nosler chamber will present incipient head seperations.
the ability to fire std rounds in a proper ackley chambers offers backup should you run out of ammo.
nosler should not have named the cartridge as ackley improved as it is not such.
rookhawk is right.
the original "beanfield rifles" built by kenny jarrett were popular in original 280 ackley.
from those rifles came the sendero type of rifle, which is basically a vermint rifle in a hunting rifle calibre so popular today.
they are absolute pigs of things to shoot offhand, as the balance so badly.
bruce.

You can fireform in either chambering. From what I have read, the Nosler design allows a tighter crush fit when fireforming without web stretch.

 

[bruce moulds]

i think it is the other way around, ackley is tighter than nosler.
fireforming in the nosler chamber is to be avoided unless you seat the bullet into the rifling.
bruce.

 

[Saul]

i think it is the other way around, ackley is tighter than nosler.
fireforming in the nosler chamber is to be avoided unless you seat the bullet into the rifling.
bruce.

I found the following posted on several other forums before. Hopefully someone smarter than I can speak to the validity of it:

From the reamer/headspace gage maker's point of view, SAAMI standardization of the 280 Ackley Improved has created problems. Mostly, it's a matter of making sure folks are informed about the change, proper fireforming--if they want to go this route--and which ammo to use in which chamber.

Ackley's intent, with rimless, shouldered cases, was to headspace the improved chamber so that the un-improved parent cartridge could be loaded and safely fired in it--the parent round was held between the breechface and the neck/ shoulder junction of the improved chamber. He advised that the breech-face-to-neck/shoulder junction in improved chambers be held some.004" to .006" shorter than in the parent chamber. Traditionally we, and other reamer makers, have done this, grinding reamers with a MINIMAL RADIUS at the N/S junction for more positive headspacing during fireforming.

Nosler/SAAMI shortened the traditional 280 AI headspace another .014". Additionally, the radius at the N/S junction was specified at .060" +.025". This was likely done because it's very difficult to form 40-degree shoulders with small radii--they're supplying fully formed ammunition, remember.

What does this mean for the owner of a 280 AI?

First, if you have one headspaced the traditional way, don't buy Nosler ammo unless you want to see evidence of excess headspace and risk case separation--its shoulder location guarantees at least .014" excessive headspace. When you need new cases, fireform them from 280 Remington brass.

Second, if you have a SAAMI-spec chamber, you can buy Nosler ammo OR fireform 280 Remington. The N/S junction on the SAAMI chamber IS .014" closer to the breech face, but the .060" radius at this points provides a little more room to accomodate 280 Rem ammo. You may feel a little resistance as you turn down the bolt handle, but it will go and the case will be held securely during fireforming.

Finally, re-loading. Don't use dies made to the old spec to re-size cases fired in SAAMI-spec chambers. The few re-size dies I checked that were made to the "old" spec would not reach the shoulder of a case fired in the SAAMI chamber.

You CAN use SAAMI-spec dies to re-size cases fired in old-spec chambers, but be sure to set the die so it barely touches the shoulder of the fired case. DO NOT set the die so it bumps the shellholder when the ram is up--you'll introduce excess headspace or crush the case.

There are different versions of the 280 AI out there, so this commentary doesn't apply to everyone. If anyone has questions about his specific rifle, I'm willing to try to answer them.

Dave Manson
1-810-953-0732

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi Bruce,

I don't know anything about de different versions of the 280 AI, but I do about fireforming a case in a chamber with a headspace a little long. In my experience, the best and, at the same time, the cheapest way is to pass the neck over an expander button of the next bigger caliber, a .30" in this case, and then rezise the neck in the 280 die but leaving a small ring of .30" not rezised over the neck-shoulder junction for a crush fit. The case, then, can be loaded with a normal 280 AI load and use it. After the shot the case will emerge of the rifle chamber as the 280 AI.
I have made this many times converting 30-06 clases to 7x64. The Brenneke has a much longer headspace than the 30-06.

Best!

CF

 

[bruce moulds]

yes that is the best way.
it is more reliable than relying on a bullet in the lands.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

saul,
i might have to apologize.
i was sure it was the other way around.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

a quick look at saami drawings reveals quite a crush fit on std 280 cases for the nosler improved chamber.
procedure for headspacing the original ackley chambers involved refacing the barrel so it could be turned in 1 full turn so that iron sights would still be in the right position.
thus the crush fit would have been the pitch of the thread.
this of course would vary from brand of rifles, depending on the pitch.
anyway, apologies to saul, and others who have been reading wrong information from me.
bruce.

 

[Milan]

@Milan
My gunsmith would disagree with you on the accuracy of the 7x57.
He shoots a M96 in 7x57 with a 29 inch barrel and open sights. His 300 yard groups have to be seen to be believed. Nothing over 3 inches. Problem is he is just a bloody good shot
Bob

I believe you. However, I'm not the only one seeing/saying this. But I have not given up. I have heard and seen accurate ones also. I wish I could remember what my 80's Brno 600 was like but I'm sure it was not 1.5" or I'd remember. So it must have shot under 1" as all of them used to do. I also had a 29" barreled Swedish Muser I could not "hit a barn door" with so to speak. Also an anomaly I'm sure. I will see what I can handload or if a new barrel helps.

 

[CBH Australia]

saul,
i might have to apologize.
i was sure it was the other way around.
bruce.

Bruce, Shit happens, we learn something new everyday.

I will re read he Dave Manson explanation again to better understand.
A few people here have said how good the 7x64, .280 and .280 can be.
I’m interested, they seem to perform well.
An see with a quick google is not much readily available in Australia.
I know the were derived from Wildcats but correct head-stamps make sense to me.
I know what’s in my gear but I don’t want someone to confuse things if they were using my gear.
Looks like Nosler confused this one.
I do like the idea of one of these chamberings, particularly in a light build.

 

[Fastrig]

Bruce, Shit happens, we learn something new everyday.

I will re read he Dave Manson explanation again to better understand.
A few people here have said how good the 7x64, .280 and .280 can be.
I’m interested, they seem to perform well.
An see with a quick google is not much readily available in Australia.
I know the were derived from Wildcats but correct head-stamps make sense to me.
I know what’s in my gear but I don’t want someone to confuse things if they were using my gear.
Looks like Nosler confused this one.
I do like the idea of one of these chamberings, particularly in a light build.

If you were going to pick one, I’d say the 7x64 would be the one to go with. I too am looking at a rifle in one of these chambering and, even in the States, the 7x64 appears to provide the most options ammo-wise and is more cost effective in that area for decent practice rounds. The 7x64 is still highly popular in Europe, is not a Wildcat, and believe has more staying power than the other two. Unless you want to hand load all the time, which I don’t, the 7x64 IMO is the way to go. How things are down under in your neck of the woods I don’t know, but think I’m going with the 7x64 for Stateside and travel hunts unless something jumps out to convince me otherwise.

 

[rookhawk]

If you were going to pick one, I’d say the 7x64 would be the one to go with. I too am looking at a rifle in one of these chambering and, even in the States, the 7x64 appears to provide the most options ammo-wise and is more cost effective in that area for decent practice rounds. The 7x64 is still highly popular in Europe, is not a Wildcat, and believe has more staying power than the other two. Unless you want to hand load all the time, which I don’t, the 7x64 IMO is the way to go. How things are down under in your neck of the woods I don’t know, but think I’m going with the 7x64 for Stateside and travel hunts unless something jumps out to convince me otherwise.

And the 7x64 comes in the prettiest rifles of the three. Poke around and you’ll find many custom Mausers and Mannlicher-Schoenauers in 7x64.

 

[Solitaire]

The 7x64 is a very well known caliber in Europe, usually with 160gr (years ago I used Federal NP ) a go to anything in plain or mountain.

 

[CBH Australia]

Sorry, it reads they are wildcats, but yes it’s the .280i that I was referring too.
I’m pretty sure that Tikka offer the 7x64 as a standard chambering. As for popularity down under I’m not sure.
All 3 sound quite good. I would hazard a guess and say that say that 7mmRM rifles and ammo will outnumber possibly all 3 combined here.
My guess is three out of 4 cartridges will not be in my country town gunshop as factory ammo.
But if I want something unique then these are worth a look and may be the perfect lightweight rifle compromise for recoil and performance.
I reckon I could get a debate going on which performs best among knowledgeable members on various sites.
Suitable powders may play a big part in optimum performance and getting imported powders may become harder whereas ADI powders by Thales are made here and are temperature stable, availability is another issue that can fluctuate.

 

[WAB]

I believe you. However, I'm not the only one seeing/saying this. But I have not given up. I have heard and seen accurate ones also. I wish I could remember what my 80's Brno 600 was like but I'm sure it was not 1.5" or I'd remember. So it must have shot under 1" as all of them used to do. I also had a 29" barreled Swedish Muser I could not "hit a barn door" with so to speak. Also an anomaly I'm sure. I will see what I can handload or if a new barrel helps.

My 7x57 is Extremely accurate. If you do your part it will shoot 1/2 moa. This is not unusual for a 7x57.

 

[rookhawk]

Dirty secret: I’ve not yet owned in inaccurate, ruined, high quality vintage rifle. Sure, I’ve bought many that were discounted as ruined, but they weren’t.

-throat erosion required longer seating of the bullet.
-a one month cleaning was required to find the rifling once more.
-a custom bullet bigger or smaller was required
-the gun was built for heavier or lighter bullets, and/or we were fighting a twist rate

Sure, there are bad guns out there but they are rarer than we think. Usually, a cure is within reach. You usually stumble on the cure with inductive reasoning rather than deductive. Don’t change one thing and try again...takes forever. Change everything until you find something that is better, then deduce why that one works and the others don’t.

 

[Saul]

Dirty secret: I’ve not yet owned in inaccurate, ruined, high quality vintage rifle. Sure, I’ve bought many that were discounted as ruined, but they weren’t.

-throat erosion required longer seating of the bullet.
-a one month cleaning was required to find the rifling once more.
-a custom bullet bigger or smaller was required
-the gun was built for heavier or lighter bullets, and/or we were fighting a twist rate

Sure, there are bad guns out there but they are rarer than we think. Usually, a cure is within reach. You usually stumble on the cure with inductive reasoning rather than deductive. Don’t change one thing and try again...takes forever. Change everything until you find something that is better, then deduce why that one works and the others don’t.

For which rifle did you have custom bullets made? Must be a pretty nice gun to go through the trouble.

 

[rookhawk]

For which rifle did you have custom bullets made? Must be a pretty nice gun to go through the trouble.

A 500 express that needed a bullet .002” off. Cost not a penny more than any other bullet. Heck, muzzleloaders that have long range accurate guns swage all their bullets. Pretty common.

 

[Mannlicher]

Mannlicher - Schoenauer Mod. GK in 7x64 from 1963. Boehler "Antinit" - barrel, Steyr-pivot-mount with Hensoldt Diasta 4x32:

WTO

 

[RayAtkinson]

It's the equivalent of the .280, 270, or even the 30-06...That's high praise for sure!

 

[CBH Australia]

here is what id do with my 280.
I have loaded in stock 140 gn nosler partitions, 140 gn Woodleigh pp, 140 gn swift aframe, and 140 gn old barnesx, all at about 3000 fps, and all on the same sight setting.
sights are 2.5" high at 100, which puts it dead on at around 250, and can still aim dead on at 300.
the partition is used for smaller game like goats up to fallow deer, and so on up through the constructions.
if I want heavier 7mm bullets I go to the 7stw, but if not would try to integrate 160s, probably swift aframe, into the above while deleting the barnes for the 280.
of all the 140s above, the swift is the most versatile, opening up fast enough for smaller game, yet holding together well on bigger stuff.
in fact it is better on goats than the 140 sierra and 140 ballistic tip, by virtue of faster opening.
not suggesting this as a universal fix for all but works for me with what I do.
if I need a bigger gun than a 7mm, I jump straight the 9.3x64.
this might suggest the versatility of 7mm.
the 280 is a joy to shoot recoil wise, and when culling you might have to do this many times fast.
I have thought about loading some 120 gn vmax for culling smaller animals in built up areas, as they might not keep sailing on after full penetration.
however a 223 with 50 gn bullets lung or head shoots them easily and humanely.
so there is the bottom end taken care of.
bruce.

I have found the 140gn Woodleigh are quite accurate and effective in my .280ai.

I saw that 280 Bruce had in the SARA store sometime back. It was well used by the look and I imagine it was as he had wore out several barrels.

If you were going to pick one, I’d say the 7x64 would be the one to go with. I too am looking at a rifle in one of these chambering and, even in the States, the 7x64 appears to provide the most options ammo-wise and is more cost effective in that area for decent practice rounds. The 7x64 is still highly popular in Europe, is not a Wildcat, and believe has more staying power than the other two. Unless you want to hand load all the time, which I don’t, the 7x64 IMO is the way to go. How things are down under in your neck of the woods I don’t know, but think I’m going with the 7x64 for Stateside and travel hunts unless something jumps out to convince me otherwise.

I’m fascinated by the .280a.i cartridge and would like to have it in a nice blued timber hunting rifle. Mine is a C/F stocked with C/F wrapped barrel another idea I was working on at the time. Things fell into place to get all the gear at good rates.

I still think it’s a sweet looking cartridge and performs well.

I recently picked up the 7x64 as well. This was for my wife and I like it. Was looking for a 7mm-08 for her but this came with dies and cases for a great price.

The 7x64 is a Tikka. I see in this thread I had mentioned they make them but on looking it’s the only one I’ve seen for sale in Australia. I don’t know if it was a special import or just a discontinued line for Australia but happy we got it.