7x64 Brenneke - Opinions

[bruce moulds]

is that with the same powder charge of the same powder?

 

[sestoppelman]

If you are asking me, I cant remember off the top of my head but close enough to be essentially the same. Again, individual rifles you know. What one will do, the other will do, that's the point.

 

[sestoppelman]

Just for giggles I was playing with different case brands. All I had on hand for .280 Rem was R-P. For 7x64 I had R-P, S&B and Hirt (Austrian). Comparing RP-RP, the .280 Rem had about a 2 gr advantage in capacity. I used some ball powder for this test, tapped it in to get the most in each case. RP .280 to S&B and Hirt 7x64 showed much closer, giving the .280 only about a half grain advantage.

So besides barrel length, individual rifles, twists, throat lengths, brass brand etc., the two rounds are for all intents and purposes nearly identical. The slight advantage to the .280 in capacity can easily be made up for by one of the other factors.

Another example I have used before is the 24" Douglas barreled .280 I used to own. It was very accurate and with it I got very good speeds. A shooting buddy using his .280 AI could never match my rifles top velocities. Annoyed him no end I promise you.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

As much as I think 175 gr .284 bullets are the bees knees in small bore, I'd think a 160 gr AF or NP at 2700 fps would be be pretty effective. A 10 twist should be plenty for that length bullet.

I picked up 2 boxes of vintage Federal Premium 7X64mm Brenneke factory ammo loaded with 160 Nosler Partition projectiles with a published muzzle velocity of 2650 fps lat year. I haven'tshot any either at the range nor on game yet.

I also picked up some vintage 7mm Speer Grand Slam (second vareity) component bullets last year in 160 grain and 175 grain. These have the two different density lead cores with the partial ring between the two different lead components. My thoughts are these should work well in 7X64mm Brenneke and 7mm-08 Remington, with my 7X64mm rifles having 1:8.7 inches rifling twist rate and 7mm-08 rifles having 1:10 inches rifling twist rate. The shorter bullet legth with less tapered point should stabilize well and most likely perform well in my applications even in 7mm-08 Remington.

I posted in another thread one point of difference between the 7X64mm Zastava rifles I purchased is the factory barrel rifling twist rate of 1:8.66 inches (also Blaser) vs 1:10 inches offered by Sako in 7X64mm and the .280 Remington factory rifles the fastest rifling twist rate I saw in factory barrels is 1:9 inches from T/C rifle, with 1:9.25 inches typical for Remington and 1:10 inches typical for Wichester M70, Browning, Blaser, Sako, T/C Carbine, and T/C Venture as shown in this chart.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/faqtwistratebymanuf.html

 

[bruce moulds]

sestoppleman,
you are posting some very interesting information.
yes individual barrels do show different results.
just to add to what you write, a thing that can make big differences to charge weights for a given velocity, and max charge weights, is the throat angle.
throat here is defined as the tapered section of the rifling, going from bore diameter to approx. groove diameter, often in front of, but not necessarily, freebore of about groove diameter.
here, both are called leade.
there are other definitions, primarily depending on who the reamer manufacturer is.
both the 280 and the 7x64 have no freebore according to saami and cip,
the 280 has a throat angle of1 degree 24 minutes and 34 seconds, while the 7x64 has 17 minutes and 11 seconds.
as you can see the 7x64 is a much lower angle, and this gives the bullet an easier start, thus not raising pressure as quickly as a steeper angle.
I have done tests on this and it has proven to be a quite significant issue.
in fact in 9.3x64, loads safe in the std angle of 17 degrees and 11 minutes blew primers when the leade was lengthened but the throat was steepened.
bringing the throat back to the cip angle made loads safe again.
this would suggest that the 7x64 might take a bit more powder than the 280 to get the same velocity, but as you say other factors like case capacity, the barrel itself, etc would all have to be taken into account.
ultimately loads must be safe whatever you fire them in.
bruce.

 

[nztimb]

both the 280 and the 7x64 have no freebore according to saami and cip,
the 280 has a throat angle of1 degree 24 minutes and 34 seconds, while the 7x64 has 17 minutes and 11 seconds.
as you can see the 7x64 is a much lower angle, and this gives the bullet an easier start, thus not raising pressure as quickly as a steeper angle.
I have done tests on this and it has proven to be a quite significant issue.
in fact in 9.3x64, loads safe in the std angle of 17 degrees and 11 minutes blew primers when the leade was lengthened but the throat was steepened.
bringing the throat back to the cip angle made loads safe again.
this would suggest that the 7x64 might take a bit more powder than the 280 to get the same velocity, but as you say other factors like case capacity, the barrel itself, etc would all have to be taken into account.
ultimately loads must be safe whatever you fire them in.
bruce.

That is very interesting Bruceand just goes to show the small things that can make a big difference

 

[Scrumbag]

As much as I think 175 gr .284 bullets are the bees knees in small bore, I'd think a 160 gr AF or NP at 2700 fps would be be pretty effective. A 10 twist should be plenty for that length bullet.

I reckon 150-165gr is roughly the sweet spot of 7x64. Doesn't have quite the case capacity to get the best out of the very heavy bullets I reckon. (If you're walking around the bush and it's close in who cares) but if you want to shoot a bit longer distance (a la NZ) then a 160gr Nosler Accubond, 150 / 160gr Sierra Game King or similar is probably where it's at. (At least in my reckoning).

Scrummy

 

[stug]

I shoot the 162 a-max at 2750fps in my Blaser K95 7x65R. It shoots and kills really well. Load is 56.5gr of ADI 2213sc. Pretty sure the powder is the same as H4831sc.
I also use the 160 Accubond at 2700fps for closer range shots.

 

[sgt_zim]

BTW, anybody needs 7x64 brass, Grafs has Hornady, Lapua, Norma, and PRVI.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

I posted this previously in another thread here. I bought 300 pieces of primed 7X64mm brass, plus 100 pieces (all they had) of primed 7mm-08 brass.

https://americanreloading.com/en/7x64/711-7x64-brenneke-speer-primed-nickel-100ct.html

Looks like there's still 8600 prined 7X64mm cases left.

Zim,

If all you're looking for is shooting 7mm 160 grain bullets around 2700 fps, a 7mm-08 Remington rifle with 1:10 inches rifling twist rate will do that job. And reloading isn't required to get there.

https://shop.reedsammo.com/7mm-08-160g-Nosler-AB-Bonded-Ballistic-Tip-708160NAB.htm

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019973527?pid=738020

I found a source for NOS Norma 7mm-08 ammunition loaded with the 156 grain Oryx projectiles as well, published MV = 2725 fps.

For reloading Graf's currently has 7mm 156 grain and 170 grain Norma Oryx projectiles in stock, among others.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Zim,

Here's a thread I'd bookmarked as Longwalker has two 7X64mm loads he posted using 160 grain projectiles. It was a good reference for me to request reasonable muzzle velocity with the 160 grain Grand Slam bullets I purchased from Reed's to manufacture 7X64mm custom ammo for me. Now I have some 7mm 155 grain Federal Edge TLR projectiles for use in 7X64mm so the 160 grain GS Mk 2's I have will be used for custom 7mm-08 loads instead.

Not 2700 fps, but I'm sure you can adjust.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/7x64.36333/

 

[bruce moulds]

zim,
you might find you can easily get 2800 with 160s for your daughter.
that would make a great red stag load, just as a 140 at 3000 does for fallow.
the 160 will shoot flatter than a 175, a possible advantage in Kiwiland.
the swift would be the better bullet, but the partition will do lung shots very effectively.
hope it all goes well for you and her.
bruce.

 

[sgt_zim]

Zim,

If all you're looking for is shooting 7mm 160 grain bullets around 2700 fps, a 7mm-08 Remington rifle with 1:10 inches rifling twist rate will do that job. And reloading isn't required to get there.

https://shop.reedsammo.com/7mm-08-160g-Nosler-AB-Bonded-Ballistic-Tip-708160NAB.htm

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019973527?pid=738020

I found a source for NOS Norma 7mm-08 ammunition loaded with the 156 grain Oryx projectiles as well, published MV = 2725 fps.

For reloading Graf's currently has 7mm 156 grain and 170 grain Norma Oryx projectiles in stock, among others.

Well yeah, but what fun is that?

My daughter is shooting a cheap NF 7mm08 right now (didn't want to spend real money until she decided she liked shooting and hunting, which she does), I got 139 gr Hornady Am White Tail for her. I chronied those at an honest 2900 fps.

Also, was planning on buying a pair of rifles in the same caliber. I'm more than comfortable with whatever recoil I may get. And at some point, she'll get more comfortable with recoil, too.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Well, I hope some of that info is helpful. I'm impressed enough with 7mm-08 Remington capabilities that I snagged this on-line Sat 2/1 during a routine check of Cabelas used rifle library items, for $449. It's waiting at my local Bass Pro, arrived Friday. I'll pick it up tomorrow.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-m70-7mm-08-rem-like-new.cfm?gun_id=101377276

Good to see another chronograph data set showing some factory ammo meeting / exceeding published muzzle velocity by the manufacturer (2840 fps). An interesting world here in the northern hemisphere.

Congrats in advance to your daughter on her accomplishments!

 

[sgt_zim]

For me, the difference between them is what can be accomplished with 175 gr. I'd be pretty content with 175 gr at 2500-2650, and I can load her up with 140/150/160 and still not generate unpleasant recoil.

These are fun games we play here in the 1st world. Life is good, my friend.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

If I was a reloader, I'd use this as an opportunity to personally explore real-world results with the new Winchester 6.5 StaBALL powder in 7mm-08 loads with 160 grain bullets. It *should* be easy to work up some 7mm-08 loads with 2700 fps muzzle velocity (and less) to use for acclimation before transitioning to the 7X64mm Brenneke. Plus seeing how close I could get to published "max load" 2825 fps with 160 grain bullets, and effects on accuracy.

I'll probably be in the Houston area next week, PM me if you want to meet up at some point, if you have the free time.

 

[sgt_zim]

I'll have to let you know. I have an interview in San Diego some time this month, don't know the date yet.

 

[rookhawk]

I wouldn't worry at all about your daughter dealing with 7x64 recoil energy. My son got his rifle at age 8 and was able to deal with its recoil to take a successful shot at 244 yards on a record-book oryx. It's 17lbs of felt recoil in his gun to shoot the 150gr Barnes TTSX factory load. About the same to shoot the Remington Core-lokt 175gr load. We're talking about pretty moderate recoil considering what it does.

THE KEY thing to remember is recoil is largely about stock fit. Getting the stock custom adjusted for a women or child is absolutely critical, as are using extra-low rings to ensure their face is fully on the stock at all times. Nothing is worse than high rings where a person must take their face off the stock to take a shot. For women, casting the stock toe-out at the butt is required to prevent the stock from hitting them in the lady parts. Also, women have longer necks so usually moleskin or a cheek riser is in order to get their face onto the stock. (unless you're rich and famous and can afford a $5000 stock fitting and a custom stock...then these details don't matter)

 

[bruce moulds]

here is what id do with my 280.
I have loaded in stock 140 gn nosler partitions, 140 gn Woodleigh pp, 140 gn swift aframe, and 140 gn old barnesx, all at about 3000 fps, and all on the same sight setting.
sights are 2.5" high at 100, which puts it dead on at around 250, and can still aim dead on at 300.
the partition is used for smaller game like goats up to fallow deer, and so on up through the constructions.
if I want heavier 7mm bullets I go to the 7stw, but if not would try to integrate 160s, probably swift aframe, into the above while deleting the barnes for the 280.
of all the 140s above, the swift is the most versatile, opening up fast enough for smaller game, yet holding together well on bigger stuff.
in fact it is better on goats than the 140 sierra and 140 ballistic tip, by virtue of faster opening.
not suggesting this as a universal fix for all but works for me with what I do.
if I need a bigger gun than a 7mm, I jump straight the 9.3x64.
this might suggest the versatility of 7mm.
the 280 is a joy to shoot recoil wise, and when culling you might have to do this many times fast.
I have thought about loading some 120 gn vmax for culling smaller animals in built up areas, as they might not keep sailing on after full penetration.
however a 223 with 50 gn bullets lung or head shoots them easily and humanely.
so there is the bottom end taken care of.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

zim,
2 nice gifts for your daughter, made in America, and with 7x64 ballistics.
rem 700 stainless steel in 280 rem is just crying out to hunt red stag in the land of the long white cloud, and has a bell & Carlson stock.
a very fine gift would be a mod 70 supergrade wood stock, also in 280 rem.
imr4831, re19, or re22, will get you where you want to go for speed and pressure.
the twists on these might interest you.