.58 caliber double rifle.....Buffalo ?

[Hogpatrol]

so this is a front loader being loaded to fire a projectile at 3000fps? what is the point? i thought the point of using old fashioned weaponry is the interest of having to utilise the capabilities of the type of weapon, and work within its umbrella??not to upgrade it to nuclear capabilities....same wanting to pump up the velocities of classic calibres that work perfectly well as designed to velocities that are not needed....hbrother:

Uh, This is not "old fashioned" weaponry. It is a new and different type of firearm meant to be used by those that are not stuck in some type of "old fashioned" mindset and are willing to try new things. There is no "point" in any type of hunting other meeting one's quarry on it's home turf and the satisfaction of making a clean, quick, one shot kill.
Rant mode on:
It's somewhat odd that other "hunters" would publicly on a forum surely read by those that would easily remove our hunting rights, denigrate the skills and weapons of other hunters when there is a full scale WAR being waged by well monied and well connected anti-hunting political machines not only in Africa but in the United States. They love it when the traditional bow hunters badmouth the compound bow hunters, the compound bow hunters badmouth the crossbow hunters, the blackpowder crowd badmouths the smokeless hunters and the centerfire hunters badmouth the muzzeloader enthusiasts. Keep it up guys, it's just what the anti-hunting cabal wants to hear.
Rant mode off.
I don't begrudge or belittle any hunter that wants to use any traditional or modern weapon, from spears to high caliber centerfires as long as they are proficient and capable of taking their quarry with a clean, quick kill. Hog

 

[A.Sharpe]

I am thinking. It's going to be at least 18 months before my Dr. Releases me. There is a NRA gun smith school at the collage . I think I'll talk with one of the instructors , Have a set of smokeless powder barrels made for my Double rifle. In reality the barrel set could be machined and bored to regulation from one solid block of steel. That would give me a 50 cal double that could shoot equal to a 375 HH. I love having what no one else has.

 

[sestoppelman]

hey ses everone has a single shot, just load your bolt action with one round...dont even need to buy a no1 then either...:biggrin2:

Yeah, but I already have a couple No.1's. I know, I will load them with black powder. Viola!!:rockon:

 

[sestoppelman]

Uh, This is not "old fashioned" weaponry. It is a new and different type of firearm meant to be used by those that are not stuck in some type of "old fashioned" mindset and are willing to try new things. There is no "point" in any type of hunting other meeting one's quarry on it's home turf and the satisfaction of making a clean, quick, one shot kill.
Rant mode on:
It's somewhat odd that other "hunters" would publicly on a forum surely read by those that would easily remove our hunting rights, denigrate the skills and weapons of other hunters when there is a full scale WAR being waged by well monied and well connected anti-hunting political machines not only in Africa but in the United States. They love it when the traditional bow hunters badmouth the compound bow hunters, the compound bow hunters badmouth the crossbow hunters, the blackpowder crowd badmouths the smokeless hunters and the centerfire hunters badmouth the muzzeloader enthusiasts. Keep it up guys, it's just what the anti-hunting cabal wants to hear.
Rant mode off.
I don't begrudge or belittle any hunter that wants to use any traditional or modern weapon, from spears to high caliber centerfires as long as they are proficient and capable of taking their quarry with a clean, quick kill. Hog

You are being a bit oversensitive. Its OK if we argue back and forth in a friendly way about our likes and dislikes. Nobody expects us to ALL agree about everything! As far as the anti's, f**k em if they cant take a joke! I dont care what they think anyway. No matter what we say here, they will always be against everything we are for, and for everything we are against so screw them! Rant over!

 

[enysse]

so this is a front loader being loaded to fire a projectile at 3000fps? what is the point? i thought the point of using old fashioned weaponry is the interest of having to utilise the capabilities of the type of weapon, and work within its umbrella??not to upgrade it to nuclear capabilities....same wanting to pump up the velocities of classic calibres that work perfectly well as designed to velocities that are not needed....hbrother:

I agree, all you proved is you can turn a muzzleloader into a rifle....I thought that is why we invented the modern day rifle. I agree also why not use a single shot or load one in the bolt gun. Sometimes we modernize things to the extreme and it becomes something different than what it was intended to be.

 

[35bore]

You are being a bit oversensitive. Its OK if we argue back and forth in a friendly way about our likes and dislikes. Nobody expects us to ALL agree about everything! As far as the anti's, f**k em if they cant take a joke! I dont care what they think anyway. No matter what we say here, they will always be against everything we are for, and for everything we are against so screw them! Rant over!

Yes, Hogpatrol (and I am not calling you out here) but what spikey said was taken out of context. I have owned the Savage 10ML, I bought it for one reason, I hate cleaning the residue left from BP, HATE IT!!!! I think that is one of the major reasons our friends at Savage designed it for smokeless powder, (that and the added velocity). To be honest, I have gotten rid of every front stuffer I owned and my compound bow to fund other projects, one of which is the switch back into traditional archery i.e. longbow. "off topic" sorry

Bluntly, I agree that if you kill cleanly (regardless of equiptment) who should care what we use. My recomendation to Mr. Sharpe about the 4 or 8 bore BP are all from reading the books on " the old fashion hunting techniques " with BP. Buff and Ele's require a big chunk of metal when being pushed with BP, the 400's and 500BPE's are not going to do it.

In my opinion the guys who have pulled off a successful kill on a Cape Buff and Ele using a 50cal BP, or even traditional bow's are some very talented or very lucky s.o.b.'s, and it is a venture I for one am not willing to take. IF,,,, I were to ever decide to hunt Buff with BP, I would take a minimum of a 8 bore... As far as debating on a public forum about common interest, lighten up, we are all friends here because of the common interest...

 

[enysse]

I think if someone wanted to hunt Africa with 8 Bore or larger I would be all ears :daydreaming:, that sounds like an adventure. A traditional hunt to me, brings out the best hunting memories sometimes.

 

[spike.t]

Yeah, but I already have a couple No.1's. I know, I will load them with black powder. Viola!!:rockon:

:laughing::clap::beer:

 

[A.Sharpe]

OK, got it worked out. Taking my .58 . and a 375. If I get a close shot on a buffalo I'll use my 58. if I see a really nice bull over 75 yards out I'll use the 375. From talking with a Outfitter they do bow hunts and you are escorted by a PH and a guide both armed and ready to give back-up if needed. As I think penetration may be the issue, going to work up some monolithic steel bullets at .55 and sabot them. it's nice having a machine shop.

 

[Stocky]

OK, got it worked out. Taking my .58 . and a 375. If I get a close shot on a buffalo I'll use my 58. if I see a really nice bull over 75 yards out I'll use the 375. From talking with a Outfitter they do bow hunts and you are escorted by a PH and a guide both armed and ready to give back-up if needed. As I think penetration may be the issue, going to work up some monolithic steel bullets at .55 and sabot them. it's nice having a machine shop.

Perfect. Or you could just get some of the homogenous solids on the market from Barnes or Nosler and others in the appropriate diameter. If you can pick one with the highest sectional density for the best penetration.

 

[flatwater bill]

A. Sharp............your question about hunting buffalo with a traditional ML is a good one. As a traditional ML shooter, I enjoy the exchanges between members on this contentious topic. A person hasn't enough years in a lifetime to learn it all on your own, so you must learn from what others have done. It is worth while to read about the ML hunters of 150 years ago. They killed (and wounded) a lot of game with both roundballs and conicals. Sam Baker's book about "wild beasts and their ways" is a good read. His description of elephant hunting with a .72 (12bore) using 7 drams (191grains) of powder and a conical bullet, shows some wounded and some killed outright. But his description of his "3 ouncer" which "invariably shot clear through an elephant" puts to rest my doubts that one CAN get a big enough muzzleloader.
A .72 caliber loaded with 875 grain (2oz) bullets at 1500fps is a common and easily duplicated load in many traditional MLs. Energy is legal in all countries in Africa for which I could find a published figure (converted from joules) for buffalo. (4497ft lbs). The 8 bore produced by "October Country", Hayden Lake, Idaho, can be loaded to about same energy levels as .458 Lott.
Hardened bullets are a must, and require more than casual knowledge of muzzleloading, however.
Keep after your dream, just use enough gun.......................................FWB

 

[Tam Dl]

The biggest problem to my way of thinking is that you are backed up with two guys who have modern gear and know what they are doing. So the question becomes when you choose lessor gear, do you get to do more, ie, you chose a more challenging method so you get a bigger experience, or are you just signing up to get elbowed out of the way at an earlier point in the experience for the adults to take over.

If there were elephants all over the US and Canada, you would be able to self-guide, and do what you want, or maybe you would have been allowed to till say the 80s. But when you go on a hunt in a foreign country with their own rules, you are just the tip of the spear. It is like producing a movie, you are just financing the script development, you aren't the director, or the lead actor. You are just the money.

Obviously hunters in Africa get bowhunting and muzzle loading, but they also don't seem to feel overgunned with modern gear from what I can determine.

I would be interested to know what PHs think is the challenge experience: More walking; harder work for trophies?

 

[Tam Dl]

On point, this might prove interesting to those considering BP rifles. Not where I would come out, but interesting:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/africa_muzzleloaders.htm

Some more by the same guy:

https://read.amazon.com/?asin=B004RDOM4G

 

[DUGABOY1]

You could take the 58 cal Pedersoli , and a 375H&H and have one of the trackers carry the 375 H&H with the chamber empty, and a magazine loaded. You carry the 58Cal and when you get on a buffalo and the 58 doesn't get the job done the tracker can hand you 375 to you to back your own shots.

The big problem #1 you are going to have is getting a permit to use the 58 cal ML on buffalo, and #2 is getting black powder in Africa! Black powder cannot be checked on a passenger plane anywhere in the world, because unlike smokeless cartridges black powder is listed as "DANGEROUS GOODS" and is not allowed on a passenger plane.

In the past people have loaded shotgun shells with no shot but full of black powder that can be opened up in the field to use the BP in the ML. The hitch here is you are breaking the law, and to have the shotgun shells you have to take shotgun as well, neither of which I would suggest.

I have several muzzle loaders and one of them is a Pedersoli 58 Cal ML double rifle. I have done some cape buffalo hunting, and you will not find me in the bush with that 58Cal ML in my hands looking for a buffalo, and you can bet my rifle would be 470NE double rifle. I have shot 300 lb wild feral hogs right through the boiler room with that 58Cal ML and have them run like they were missed till the second barrel caught up to them and still had to track the some distance before finding the dead or disabled. The same size hogs shot from one barrel from my 470NE double drops them in their tracks.

The best use of the 58cal double with round ball is black bear over bait from a blind, IMO. Works fine for deer however!

.................Good luck with what ever you decide! Cape buffalo are fine animals and deserve the quickest kill you can muster !

 

[A.Sharpe]

Dugaboy, That could be the answer. If I ever get to see Africa again......

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

Y'all are a bit silly lol. Millions of buffalo (hundreds of thousands of elephants and hippo, tiger, and lions) were killed around the world with muzzleloading guns, and the early breechloaders that were meant to be a faster-loading version thereof... if you have a .58, just load it like a heavy .577bpe (I would look at the 3", 160gr charge with a 610gr hardened lead bullet, velocity is around 1800fps). The problem is, most of the big manufacturers dont proof their guns for anything close to what the old Purdy's, H&H's, ect were (evidence that most makers dont consider them legit hunting arms, more of novelties).

Sir Samuel Baker believed the .577 ML and BL rifles to be the equal to any animal on earth, he just ordered a little more for ele and hippo. If you get into the "bores", you're going to run into the same issues they did originally. In 50, I can't imagine much of anything shrugging off a 50-140-700 "Sharps" which was meant to be the perfect LR buffalo killer (just introduced too late in the extermination of the american bison to make a difference) is more or less the same as the 3-1/4" .500bpe, just loaded with a much heavier bullet. Get a good double made for DG, and a small bore single for everything else (load it to .40-90-400, and it'd be able to smoke even eland quite handidly out to further than I care to hunt). Can't do much about hunting regs, but hunting today is a business transaction, go to the country and ph that will get you what you want...