577/500 No. 2 Express

[Altitude sickness]

You should say a silent prayer for any animal that you will shoot with a CEB Safari Raptor.

“For those about to drop, We salute you”

 

[TheDoubleD]

100s, on top of hundreds....... Since 2011 and before.........

You have shot Cape Buffalo with these CE bullets?

I am concerned about this bullets performance. The shearing the petals, concerns me. Does this really work in Cape buffalo?

But personally, I do not recommend a Raptor for your application, you are just not running enough velocity to take advantage of the devastation that a Raptor can produce. You are better off with a good CEB 400 gr Solid that Posted above....... This will provide the penetration you might need at that low velocity.

This 577/500 No. 2 Express 2-13/16" case has not been modernize. Most of the the gun in this chambering are double rifles. Pressures needs to be kept down these old doubles.

I'm not shooting a double. I am shooting Greener Sporting Martini. And not a converted Greener shotgun either. These Sporting Martini's were available black powder proved. Pay the extra fee and you could order it Nitro proved proved. Same gun, pay the fee and it's nitro proved.

I like the idea of the modern CEB .510 475 grain bullet, but can I push it to 2000 fps and keep pressures under 40,000 lbs?

 

[michael458]

You have shot Cape Buffalo with these CE bullets?

25 or so....... and near 100 or so Asiatic.............

I am concerned about this bullets performance. The shearing the petals, concerns me. Does this really work in Cape buffalo?

Blades. not petals............ Does it work? With Extreme Prejudice...Deadly Wicked, mass trauma inflicted.........

I like the idea of the modern CEB .510 475 grain bullet, but can I push it to 2000 fps and keep pressures under 40,000 lbs?

I have no idea...... I am not in the least familiar with the cartridge........... from the velocity you quote, I have explained several times to you that at those lower velocities I think you are better off with the 400 gr CEB .510 caliber Solid.......... I have stated this many times........ If you want to run Raptors, it helps to have a cartridge that can run a little more velocity. Raptors Like Velocity.

 

[Altitude sickness]

DoubleD, I just killed a bull and cow with a 400 grain raptor. .416 Taylor in June. So more speed than your set up. And not your rifle. But you asked if the bullet is up to Buffalo.

The bull stumbled/fell downhill and was dead in 15 ish feet.

Unfortunately we had such an aggressive hunt, hanging baits, checking baits, sitting baits.

that I didn’t have the luxury of being in camp to do the proper forensics and pictures on the Buffalo carcass.

The bull was in the brush to the left of the red dot. And here is where he died. We turned him 180 for pictures.

he didn’t have time to bellow. Died almost instantly

Be careful of animals behind a target animal. After the blades come off. the rest keeps moving forward as a solid.

One word to describe the Raptor. Devastation

 

[TheDoubleD]

510

25 or so....... and near 100 or so Asiatic.............

Blades. not petals............ Does it work? With Extreme Prejudice...Deadly Wicked, mass trauma inflicted.........

That is what I need to know.

Now it is up to me to find a way, if possible drive the bullets fast enough.


How fast do I need to drive these bullets?

I just found all the data to insert in Quick load.

Quick load predicts 2029 fps muzzle velocity and just under 28,000 psi with 87 grains of Varget for the Cutting edge 475 grain, .502 Safari Raptor.

How much do I trust Quick Load?

 

[michael458]

How fast do I need to drive these bullets?

2000 + muzzle............ and if you are using a single shot or some such, then add a Talon Tip which gives you 125-150 fps at 50 yard impacts...........

 

[TheDoubleD]

Thanks, this is the type of information I am looking for.

Telling me to reach for 2000 fps, thank you fact I am looking at.

Right now I am looking at the following bullets.

1. Cutting Edge. .510 475GR SAFARI RAPTOR-NITRO EXPRESS

2. Hawk .510 440 grain .050 jacket

3. .510 hard cast bullet.

I finally found the Bill Pace article from Gun Digest on his use of the .500 Express. First he used the 3 inch version. Mine is the .577/.500 No. 2 Express, 2-13/16" case. He used everything he had on that buff.

I need to do load development first. Which means I need to get the bullets.

CE's and Hawk on order. Waiting for delivery.

Research to be done on the hard cast bullet. Need some input on that. Suggestions?

 

[TheDoubleD]

BTW. It's not lost on me the that Bill Pace put 10 rounds into the Buffalo before it was finished.

Old double rifle loaded to regulate with old load ballistics.

That is not my goal. I am going for safe loads with 400 plus grain bullet at 2000 fps with this old cartridge.

If not I will be using either the .404 Barnes Jones Express, which is actually .416 BJ, Or I will use my 450/400 3".

 

[TheDoubleD]

Well, I can't believe I spent $200 for 50 bullets. The Cutting Edge bullets came Monday. Less than a week since I ordered.

I will measure them and verify the dimensions with what is in the CB .dat file in Quickload.

I am going to start with Varget because that is what I have.

I have to say, these bullets sure are pretty. Especially with the Talon tip on top.

 

[TheDoubleD]

Ran the the CEB bullets in QuickLOAD. Here what it predicts.

Goal is Pmax less than 40,000 psi. Velocity 2000 fps.

I was going to start with 75 grains of Varget.

Comments?

*****************************************************

Cartridge : .577/500 #2, EXP.
Bullet : .510, 475, CutEdge-DGBR
Useable Case Capaci: 109.365 grain H2O = 7.101 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.400 inch = 86.36 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon VARGET *T ?
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 3.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-30.0 61 59.50 1472 2286 13580 3177 71.7 2.218 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-27.0 64 62.05 1529 2465 14742 3390 73.7 2.138 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-24.0 66 64.60 1586 2653 15997 3605 75.6 2.062 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-21.0 69 67.15 1644 2849 17351 3822 77.6 1.990 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-18.0 71 69.70 1702 3054 18811 4039 79.4 1.921 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-15.0 74 72.25 1760 3266 20387 4256 81.2 1.855 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-12.0 77 74.80 1818 3487 22086 4471 83.0 1.791 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-09.0 79 77.35 1877 3717 23919 4685 84.7 1.730 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-06.0 82 79.90 1936 3954 25898 4896 86.3 1.671 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-03.0 85 82.45 1995 4199 28035 5103 87.8 1.615 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 87 85.00 2055 4452 30342 5306 89.3 1.559 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0 90 87.55 2114 4713 32835 5503 90.6 1.503 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 92 90.10 2173 4982 35534 5694 91.9 1.450 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+09.0 95 92.65 2233 5258 38456 5877 93.1 1.399 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+12.0 98 95.20 2292 5541 41624 6052 94.2 1.351 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+15.0 100 97.75 2352 5832 45061 6219 95.3 1.305 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[TheDoubleD]

I figured out why I was getting the dangerous load warning. The Input field for PMaz has question mark in it. When input the pressure , I didn't type over the Question mark removing it..

Here is the corrected chart for load. I'll start at 70% and work up to 2000fps.

I am going to pick-up a Garmin Chronograph.

Cartridge : .577/500 #2 N.E.
Bullet : .510, 475, CutEdge-DGBR
Useable Case Capaci: 109.365 grain H2O = 7.101 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.400 inch = 86.36 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder : Hodgdon VARGET *T

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 3.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-30.0 59 57.68 1429 2155 11452 2742 69.3 2.512
-27.0 62 60.15 1486 2330 12496 2934 71.4 2.419
-24.0 64 62.62 1544 2514 13623 3127 73.5 2.331
-21.0 67 65.10 1602 2706 14837 3322 75.6 2.247
-18.0 69 67.57 1660 2906 16146 3518 77.6 2.167
-15.0 72 70.04 1718 3114 17555 3714 79.5 2.091
-12.0 74 72.51 1777 3330 19073 3908 81.3 2.015
-09.0 77 74.98 1836 3554 20709 4101 83.1 1.938
-06.0 79 77.46 1894 3785 22471 4292 84.8 1.864
-03.0 82 79.93 1953 4024 24369 4480 86.4 1.795
+00.0 84 82.40 2012 4271 26416 4663 87.9 1.730
+03.0 87 84.87 2071 4525 28624 4842 89.4 1.667
+06.0 90 87.34 2130 4786 31005 5016 90.8 1.608
+09.0 92 89.82 2189 5054 33577 5184 92.0 1.552
+12.0 95 92.29 2248 5329 36356 5345 93.2 1.499 ! Near Maximum !
+15.0 97 94.76 2307 5611 39361 5499 94.3 1.448 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 84 82.40 2135 4809 31487 4903 94.6 1.601
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 84 82.40 1867 3676 21837 4253 78.7 1.890