577/500 No. 2 Express

[TheDoubleD]

Are Woodleigh .440 grain RN SN .510 projectiles at 1600-1700 fps adequate for Cape buffalo?

 

[Rafiki]

Are Woodleigh .440 grain RN SN .510 projectiles at 1600-1700 fps adequate for Cape buffalo?

probably not. At 1700fps that's only 2824ft/lbs of energy. You didn't mention the particular Woodleigh so I'll take a guess at their Weldcore (Catalog #8). Weldcores are good traditional bullet but this one needs 1700-2000fps according to their own website.

 

[Rafiki]

I don't know what rifle your working with, sounds interesting; care to share some rifle info?

As an option you could try Hawk bullets ( https://hawkbullets.com ). Hawks are cup & core like Woodleigh Weldcore but the jackets are soft copper and would be easier on historical firearms. They also have the advantage to obfuscate in barrels that may be not exactly the caliber that you think it is, common in old firearms. They are not bonded.

I have used Hawks in my 50-90 Sharps and in my experience they shoot quite well however they are not suitable for Cape Buffalo no matter how fast they are going.

 

[Sarg]

While it would kill one, I'm sure there are better bullets & loads to start the fight with, properly better cartridges to, like your .577 Martini maybe ?

Actually I have had a hunter use a .500BPE (similar Cartridge) on Water Buff & it worked, not as decisive as a .500NE but did the job, I think several hunters have used it but mostly in nice old Doubles.

I think you are using a single shot so I would look for a more powerful load or rifle if so ?

Some of the more modern fancy bullets may work well to, lighter weight so bit less recoil & pressure, not sure if you are using BP but you may be better off trying NFP loads ?

If you were to use Cutting Edge Bullets CEB for example & get them going at the same speed or close to the loads use by @michael458 in one of his short .500's that may well work & he has done a bit of testing on Big Bovid's & they seem to work well ?

I think a lighter CEB (Barnes/North Fork) .577 bullet in your Martini might work better how ever ?

 

[TheDoubleD]

I an working from the Woodleigh reloading manual and they only list one 440 grain RN SN .510 projectile for velocities at 1800 to 2200.

I had to cancel my Cape Buffalo hunt last year and have now rescheduled it for 2026.

I am revisiting and reviewing my options for a rifle and cartridge combination for that trip.

I just happened to have these bullets sitting on the shelf. They are bullets intended for black powder velocities in this cartridges. I was concerned they might to fragile for cape buffalo.

FWIW I am looking at testing Barnes TSX 570 grain .509 bullets in this cartridge in my Martini.

 

[Rafiki]

I an working from the Woodleigh reloading manual and they only list one 440 grain RN SN .510 projectile for velocities at 1800 to 2200.

Eh, your original post said 1600-1700fps, now your up to 1800-2200fps. That of course is a big difference and makes a big difference. Given proper bullet construction those new velocities are, as you say, adequate. I'm still wondering about the rifle that this is intended for.

I just happened to have these bullets sitting on the shelf. They are bullets intended for black powder velocities in this cartridges. I was concerned they might to fragile for cape buffalo.

You can ask Woodleigh about the construction of the 440 BPE bullet. If it is a Weldcore it is not fragile.

FWIW I am looking at testing Barnes TSX 570 grain .509 bullets in this cartridge in my Martini.

Ok, its a Martini, I didn't know it was made in 577/500, live and learn. How much does this puppy weigh?

Have you slugged the barrel to see what your working with?

The 570gr TSX is 1.75" long but with a 3" case you have quite a bit to play with but you may have trouble getting even 2100fps keeping pressures where they should be.

 

[grand veneur]

Are Woodleigh .440 grain RN SN .510 projectiles at 1600-1700 fps adequate for Cape buffalo?

This bullet is very thin-jacketed. Woodleigh gives an impact velocity of 1700 to 2000 fps, but without specification of the toughness of the game. It's not the energy that kills, it is the bullet that has to penetrate deep enough. I speak from personal experience with older big bore cartridges and bullets. There can be problems with all of these thin-jacketed bullets because they can expand too early or even disintegrate in the body of the game. It can go well, but it remains a lot of uncertain. You cannot make the slightest mistake by the shot placement. Success or not will also depend on the shooting distance and you don't have any reserves in case something goes wrong.

I would advise against using such cartridges and bullets from times when there was hardly anything else available. You have nowadays a large selection of very good cartridges for hunting cape buffalos available.

 

[michael458]

Are Woodleigh .440 grain RN SN .510 projectiles at 1600-1700 fps adequate for Cape buffalo?

If you were to use Cutting Edge Bullets CEB for example & get them going at the same speed or close to the loads use by @michael458 in one of his short .500's that may well work & he has done a bit of testing on Big Bovid's & they seem to work well ?

Considering .510 caliber and 1600-1700 fps I don't care much for the Raptors at that velocity, in .510 caliber CEB Makes a 350 Lever Raptor, I requested for 51 Alaskan lever guns, and it has a matching 400 gr CEB Lever SOLID....... at these lower velocities, I would go with the Solid to ensure penetration.

Later I see 2000 fps or so mentioned, at that point I might look at the 350 Raptor and followed by the 400 Solids.........

I used a 350 ESP Raptor on a big Aussie bull in 500 MDM once, .500 caliber, it was devastating, and busted the bull to pieces, however I was running it at 2800 fps as well...... Raptors love velocity.........

I also shot a Cape Buffalo bull once behind the shoulders with a .500 caliber 365 Lever Raptor which did a number on the lungs, bullet penetrated fully and sticking out of the hide far side, plucked it out with my fingers........ But, I did some serious followup with 405 Lever Solids....... The 365 Lever Raptor was running 2200 fps........

Maybe that helps a bit........ Hopefully.....................

 

[TheDoubleD]

Actually I did say 1600-1700fps. Woodleigh said impact velocities, 1800-2200fps.

I am working from Woodleigh reloading manual and see nothing Weldcore mentioned but I didn't look at other resources.

The original question was: "Are Woodleigh .440 grain RN SN .510 projectiles at 1600-1700 fps adequate for Cape buffalo?"

You folks have answered that quite well, thank you.

I have been considering loading the bullets up and using them for deer season. This will give me practice time-familiarity with the Martini hunting. I really would like to take his gun to Africa, it is the prettiest Martini I own.

I am also going to research loading Barnes .509 570gr TSX in the cartridge.

 

[Sarg]

Lovely rifle DD & cool old caliber, I think you could do much better with a NFB load & a modern maybe mono lighter bullet, I don't think you can drive the 570gr TSX fast enough, wouldn't go more than the 535gr but if you can find a good mono pressure lowering .425gr - 450 - 475 - 500gr that would do the job on a nice lung shot, add in a few solids, the Buff will die maybe after a little follow up, you won't be on your own & only have the one shot .

 

[rookhawk]

Are Woodleigh .440 grain RN SN .510 projectiles at 1600-1700 fps adequate for Cape buffalo?

They are not.

I've been here, done that.

In a 500 Nitro-For-Black-Powder loading, you need every trick in the book to get it to be a weapon suitable for buffalo.

1.) You need greater than 1900fps which requires a low pressure powder, coupled with one that will actually regulate with the gun.

2.) You need to seek out the very rare Woodleigh bullets that were made with a .065" gilding metal jacket, not the thin-skinned game .025"-.035" jackets.

Even in this situation, it needs to be in a double rifle so you can immediately get off a good second shot.

 

[TheDoubleD]

Thanks every one for you responses. I have been researching this topic for a couple of days. I looked at this question a couple years ago when I was first planning a hunt that got cancelled. As do my research now, the answers I come up with seem familiar.

I did figure out why I have these Woodleigh bullets. I bought them for my Moose hunt in 2017. I found a full box of 18 loaded round in the Ammo storage cabinet. Used two shots to sight at camp. Shot the moose with my .338-06 Ackley.

So in the mean time I have two years to get my guns ready. I have a Greener GP Martini .577 3-inch NE that I will work with. My fall back gun is my Ruger No 1 450-400 3-inch.

Thanks again everyone

 

[Huvius]

For what it‘s worth, the late David Powell of Gunsinternational and his son used brass monos (maybe Woodleigh Hydros) in a 500BPE to take an elephant.
He made sure the OD of the bullet was at or a little below the groove of his rifle So to avoid damage to the rifle.
He told me the bullet went through a rib, thought the heart and into the off side leg. Walked a little ways and fell over.

 

[TheDoubleD]

I thought some one here on this thread (or perhaps this board) provide me a link to Pace's article on using the .500 BPE to hunt cape buffalo.

Can someone again provide me with the link to that article?

 

[rookhawk]

I thought some one here on this thread (or perhaps this board) provide me a link to Pace's article on using the .500 BPE to hunt cape buffalo.

Can someone again provide me with the link to that article?

I didn’t write an article and I’m not familiar with the one you referenced, but I did go on this journey myself. Happy to share what I learned along the way.

Totally doable, but your limiting factor is availability of softs bard enough to do the work.

 

[TheDoubleD]

Still looking for the Pace article. I think Pace used a .500 3" BPE. My gun is .577/500 No.2 BPE

Hawk is going to make me 440 grain .510 bullets using .050 jacket. I am going to try to push these to 1900-2000 FPS.

If i can't there are a couple of other guns in safe that can.

 

[rookhawk]

Still looking for the Pace article. I think Pace used a .500 3" BPE. My gun is .577/500 No.2 BPE

Hawk is going to make me 440 grain .510 bullets using .050 jacket. I am going to try to push these to 1900-2000 FPS.

If i can't there are a couple of other guns in safe that can.

I hate your approach with a passion. I paid Hawk a small fortune to make me .065" thick jacketed 440gr bullets that were then supposed to be dropped in arsenic and baked to achieve a reasonably hard brinnel hardness thereafter. I talked with Hawk about this for months because quite simply: If the bullets aren't hard, I could be killed by a buffalo.

After a long wait, the bullets arrived and something told me to trust but verify. I brought the bullets to a metallurgy shop and tested them. They all cam back as soft lead entirely. I confronted Hawk about this and they basically said "whoops, I forgot" which in turn ruined my hunt. They didn't not give me a full refund in the entirety either.

You need a better plan.

 

[michael458]

Hawk is going to make me 440 grain .510 bullets using .050 jacket. I am going to try to push these to 1900-2000 FPS.

You are treading on very dangerous ground if you are even considering Hawk for buffalo, I would have concerns about Hawk for Jack Rabbits........... You are truly wasting time and money on that effort......They will flatten like pancakes on buffalo hide/shoulder, and they will not penetrate.........I don't care what they say the are going to do.......... or what sort of jacket thickness, I have been that route with them 20 years ago...........

@rookhawk is 100% Spot on with this statement................

You need a better plan.

If I were you............. This would be MY PLAN................At the Velocities you are talking about......

 

[TheDoubleD]

Thank you this what I need to know-what I have been looking for.

Cutting edge bullets. Other than what I have read on the internet I do not know much about them.

Looking at the the DGBR-HP X06NE 430 grain. .510.

I don't see much on anyone actually using Cutting edge bullets on cape buffalo. Has anyone here actually used them on buffalo?

 

[michael458]

I don't see much on anyone actually using Cutting edge bullets on cape buffalo. Has anyone here actually used them on buffalo?

100s, on top of hundreds....... Since 2011 and before.........

But personally, I do not recommend a Raptor for your application, you are just not running enough velocity to take advantage of the devastation that a Raptor can produce. You are better off with a good CEB 400 gr Solid that Posted above....... This will provide the penetration you might need at that low velocity.