.470 NE Reloads and Fillers?

[gxsr-sarge]

Hello All!

I'm proud to announce that I've recently acquired a .470 NE Double (Krieghoff) for puposes of a buffalo/tuskless elephant hunt next year in Zimbabwe.

Well, maybe I should have checked the ammo prices first!!

I'll definitely be reloading over the next year for purposes of practicing and maybe taking one of those safari shooting courses. However, I'm having a hard time finding some good recipes for reloading the 470 NE so I have few requests/questions:

- Can anyone share theirs?
- I've never used a filler (aside from wads in shotgun reloading) so can anyone please explain how to use apply/use it (how much - when it hits the top?) which brand and where do I get it?
- What is the best primer for this tame cannon?
- And any other advice or information that you care to share.

Many thanks!!

Sergio

 

[Mike70560]

Sergio,

A "standard" load for the 470 Nitro is either 89 grains of Reloder15 or 106 grains of IMR4831. Double check this data, never rely on loads from the internet.

The IMR 4831 does not require a filler.

For the Reloder 15 I stamp a 1" thick piece of foam by 1/2" diameter. Kynoch makes some pre-cut one but they are expensive.

Federal 215s are my go to primers, but have used Remington Magnum Rifle with no issues.

I like North Fork solids for elephants and North Fork Cup Points for buffalo.

Start low on powder charge, use a chronograph. 2150 FPS is the gold standard, but velocity will determine how your rifle regulates. If it is crossing, slow down your velocity. If the spread is too wide speed up.

Remember it is not a bolt gun. Do not hot rod your loads.

 

[gxsr-sarge]

Sergio,

A "standard" load for the 470 Nitro is either 89 grains of Reloder15 or 106 grains of IMR4831. Double check this data, never rely on loads from the internet.

The IMR 4831 does not require a filler.

For the Reloder 15 I stamp a 1" thick piece of foam by 1/2" diameter. Kynoch makes some pre-cut one but they are expensive.

Federal 215s are my go to primers, but have used Remington Magnum Rifle with no issues.

I like North Fork solids for elephants and North Fork Cup Points for buffalo.

Start low on powder charge, use a chronograph. 2150 FPS is the gold standard, but velocity will determine how your rifle regulates. If it is crossing, slow down your velocity. If the spread is too wide speed up.

Remember it is not a bolt gun. Do not hot rod your loads.

Mike,

Thank you very much for your input. It is exceptionally helpful. I 100% agree with the "reliance on the web" comment. I always try to cross reference any advice and ALWAYS start off on the low end of the spectrum.

I plan to use factory ammo (probably Federal's 500 Gr Barnes XXX) during the actual hunt. My plan is to initially see how that ammo shoots and, if it regulates nicely, chrono that ammo. I was then planning, for purposes of purely practice, practice, practice, to load up similar rounds to that of Federal's (I know the POA, etc. may be a bit different due to the varying components).

Now if the rifle hates the Barnes, I may have to start from scratch and then use my handloads for the hunt. The good news is that I have the 11 months to fuss with all of this.

I already use both RL15 and IMR 4831 (who doesn't) but will most likely go with the later in order to spare the filler step.

Thanks again,

Sergio

 

[Mike70560]

There is a difference in felt recoil between the two powders. RL 15 will recoil less. The idea of the foam scared me at first but it is actually easy.

Be careful on your bullet selection. I like the bore riders like North Fork and CEB. The Barnes is banded but the other two bullets will give less barrel strain. In a bolt gun that is not an issue. With the older English doubles some of the older monolithic solids could cause the barrels to separate. The K-Gun/Barnes combination should be fine.

The K-Gun is stronger than hell, shoots different loads well, and I like the "safety".

May you be as lucky with yours as I have been with mine.

 

[gxsr-sarge]

Interesting point regarding the felt recoil with the different powders. It's nice to that you have great things to say about the K-Gun. I have a K-80 for skeet and a Semprio in 30-06. I've become quite a fan of Krieghoffs. I've always admired the Classic Doubles and now have a great reason to acquire one for my hunt next year.

That's a fantastic trophy with a handsome boss. I too hope I have similar luck!

Thanks again.

Sergio

 

[Hallgeir Gravråk]

I also have a Krieghoff Classic in cal 470
I have done a bit of testing my ammo.
I tryed Barnes VOR-TX with 500 grs TSX, Vo 2150 fps this one spread to much (4")
My best loads are with 500 grs Woodleigh Weldcore RNSN loaded with the Vhitavuori N-150 91,5 grs this gives a Vo in my rifle 2130 and the 2 bullets from both barells are in the same hole.
This load are my first to go with on a Safari.
I`m gonna try the A-Frame bullets with 90,0 grs N-150, I'm not using any filler in my cartridges.
The N-150 are in the same burning rate as the H4350 and RL17.

I also tried 106 grs Norma MRP and this was also spreading to much, I have some more to go before I reach the max load.

Is there any of you guys that have some more input?

The burning rate are from Vhitavuori Burning rate Chart. USE WITH CAUTIONS!!

 

[Bullthrower338]

I have never used fillers in my loads but @tarbe does routinely. We have been getting very good results with 118 grains of IMR 7977 pushing 500 grain A-Frames. No filler needed with this recipe.
Cheers,
Cody

 

[Hallgeir Gravråk]

I have never used fillers in my loads but @tarbe does routinely. We have been getting very good results with 118 grains of IMR 7977 pushing 500 grain A-Frames. No filler needed with this recipe.
Cheers,
Cody

Did you get good groups with A-Frame?

 

[Bullthrower338]

Did you get good groups with A-Frame?

Yes sir.

 

[CAustin]

Mike,

Thank you very much for your input. It is exceptionally helpful. I 100% agree with the "reliance on the web" comment. I always try to cross reference any advice and ALWAYS start off on the low end of the spectrum.

I plan to use factory ammo (probably Federal's 500 Gr Barnes XXX) during the actual hunt. My plan is to initially see how that ammo shoots and, if it regulates nicely, chrono that ammo. I was then planning, for purposes of purely practice, practice, practice, to load up similar rounds to that of Federal's (I know the POA, etc. may be a bit different due to the varying components).

Now if the rifle hates the Barnes, I may have to start from scratch and then use my handloads for the hunt. The good news is that I have the 11 months to fuss with all of this.

I already use both RL15 and IMR 4831 (who doesn't) but will most likely go with the later in order to spare the filler step.

Thanks again,

Sergio

Sir,
Federal also loads the 470 NE in a Woodleigh Hydro Solid.

 

[rookhawk]

Friends, I'm always interested in "felt recoil" calculations.

The formulas on the web consider the following variables:

Bullet Weight
Gun Weight
Muzzle Velocity
Powder Charge

For my 470NE without the scope at 9lbs 12 ounces, it comes to 85lbs of recoil.
For my 470NE with the scope at 11lbs 2 ounces, it comes to 75lbs of recoil.

Help me understand this piece. Bullet weight 500gr. Gun Weight as above. Muzzle Velocity standard is 2150fps. The Powder Charge using IMR4831 is 106gr. For RL15 it is 89gr. Is that to suggest that a different powder will greatly adjust the recoil at the same velocity, weight of gun, and weight of bullet? Or are the calculators flawed?

If I plug 89gr of powder into the calculator, it lowers the recoil to 75lbs and a VERY pleasant 66lbs respectively. This doesn't make sense to me so I assume the calculators are flawed?

 

[bruce moulds]

rookhawk,
the calculators use a formula that includes powder charge as you say.
from memory, the function of the formula squares the weight of the powder which makes for a bigger change.
hawever recoil can to some degree be subjective, open to the individual's feel.
with regards different burning rate powder in doubles, it is your friend.
faster powder can cause more crossover and slower less crossover.
the right burning rate will give the ideal crossover, or barrels shooting parallel.
in my 450 x 3 1/4" one of the 4831s (cant remember could have even been ww2 powder) gave good regulation at ideal velocity.
slower powder for the same velocity will give less pressure for the same velocity, a good thing in doubles.
bruce.

 

[mikecatt13]

Couple questions...

How does one know when "filler" is needed and what's its purpose? I'm no reloading expert but I've done a bit on pistol calibers, 308, 338LM, 223, etc but havent heard of this.

Anyone else have a frame recipes? It looks like theres a couple above, how do you decide which powder to choose?

Do yall have a preferred primer for 470?

Seems like if I'm gonna shoot swift, its probably worth the $30-40 to buy their reloading manual for min and max with specific bullets?

 

[rookhawk]

Couple questions...

How does one know when "filler" is needed and what's its purpose? I'm no reloading expert but I've done a bit on pistol calibers, 308, 338LM, 223, etc but havent heard of this.

Anyone else have a frame recipes? It looks like theres a couple above, how do you decide which powder to choose?

Do yall have a preferred primer for 470?

Seems like if I'm gonna shoot swift, its probably worth the $30-40 to buy their reloading manual for min and max with specific bullets?

For the 470NE:

Most people use federal 215m primers

Most powders may not have proper ignition unless wads or Dacron stuffing is used

Imr4350 and rl19 powders are most popular, the latter with less recoil

Most bullet and other reloading manuals, they rarely have big bore data

You’re going to need to use 500gr softs data for your a-frames and work up carefully

 

[DrBob]

Graeme Wright has an excellent book out on shooting the British double rifle. 3rd edition out but may be rare by now. This book covers all major calibers, nitro, nitro for black and black.

I use half inch gray and yellow open cell backer rod as my wad for 470 Nitro. Has to be open cell. Easy to buy and I usually cut to 1 inch lengths. Best powders are H4350 and RL17 for my Merkel. Those and... Varget for Woodleigh and cast lead. I get better velocity with Varget than Rl15 and not sticky at all. Always start low with charges.... your rifle may vary from mine... so be prudent.

Hornady 500 DGS and DGX - RL-17 96.5 grains, Fed 215, 1' backer rod wad 2050 fps
H4350 96.5 gr, CCI 250, 1" backer rod 2080 fps
748 96 gr, CCI 250 , 1" backer rod 2148 fps
Barnes Banded Solid IMR 4831 108 gr, CCI 250, 2174 fps
Woodleigh 500 SP Varget 84 gr, CCI 250, 1" backer rod 2112 fps
500 grain cast lead Varget 81.5 gr, Fed 215 , 1" backer rod 2100 fps (bullets touch at 50 yards)
H4350 93 gr, Fed 215, 1" backer rod 2100 fps

 

[IvW]

You might want to check warranty/guarantee with Krieghoff. Krieghoff SA will void any warranty/guarantee when using monolithic bullets in their double rifles.

Woodleighs work well at NE velocities, Swift A frames are great.

What was the rifle originally regulated with?

 

[IvW]

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/470-factory-load-recipes.52868/

 

[perttime]

...
How does one know when "filler" is needed and what's its purpose? ...

If a load leaves empty space in the case, it can be beneficial for consistent ignition to use a filler to keep the powder in the primer end of the case.

I've heard about the use of dacron fiber for making subsonic loads in 308Win before, but have no idea about how much to use.

 

[grand veneur]

If a load leaves empty space in the case, it can be beneficial for consistent ignition to use a filler to keep the powder in the primer end of the case.

I agree with that.

I use fiber wads from BPI to reload the cartridges 577NE and 600NE. These very large cases were designed for Cordite but nowadays with our powders they can never be completely filled. In addition , the primers are anyway at their limits to ignite these amounts of powder.

It is relatively easy to load straight-walled cases with a filler. For reloading bottle-necked cases , amongst other the cartridge 470NE , as far as you need a filler for this cartridge , you have to be more careful about the choice and the placement of this one.

I also recommend all hunters who want to load cartridges for big bore DR , the book "SHOOTING the BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE" 3 rd. Edition from Graeme Wright.

 

[rookhawk]

The other question to ask is: do you need to handload your double?

There are some deals out there on factory ammo. You cannot buy the nosler or Hornady 470NE components as cheap as they sell finished product!

$5-$7 ammo is pretty great and only reusing brass makes it cheaper on the reload.