.458 Winchester vs. .458 Lott

[HWL]

I avoided this predicament by simply buying both!

I like the WM but I love the Lott.

Ado

I had no chance to avoid this...

I already had a Mauser 66S in .458 Win-Mag.

Than I had an encounter with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer MC in .458..... I could not withstand....



HWL

 

[Dr Ray]

After an "Act of madness", I have two rifles .458 Winchester-Magnum in my gunrack. Probably, I do not need even one. But anyways, there is always someting to improve.
Does ist make sence, to altern one to .458 Lott. I had a close look into Norma´s Reloading Manual #2.
.458 Winchester seems to perform better than .458 Lott, even with a shorter barrel! Are there any experiences out there? From the chronograph and from field....

HWL

Maybe you could consider the 450 Rigby.

 

[HWL]

Maybe you could consider the 450 Rigby.

I did,...but COL 3,750" and head diameter .579" of the .450 Rigby could be to much for a Mauser 66S.

...but the idea is fascinating

HWL

 

[Dr Ray]

I did,...but COL 3,750" and head diameter .579" of the .450 Rigby could be to much for a Mauser 66S.

...but the idea is fascinating

HWL

I suspected that would be a problem.
Maybe your gunsmith can ream out but check out!

I would like the 416 Rigby rather than 458 and friends, personally.
In late September I'll be going after Australian water buffalo with my 338 Winchester magnum. If I get a chance for Cape buffalo, I'll use either a 375 or 416 Rigby.

 

[Bren7X64]

I recall reading somewhere that freebore increases velocity by giving the bullet a running jump at the lands, the bullet's momentum helping to overcome resistance from the lands. But I am unable to Google up any authority for that proposition, so maybe my memory is in error.

Maybe I read it in some old Weatherby ads. Surely Weatherby has some reason for the freebore, beyond simply burning more powder, and the obvious reason that occurs to me is Weatherby must believe freebore increases velocity.

Even if the running-jump theory is poppycock (or an invention of my subconscious), isn't it possible the greater powder capacity that freebore allows for does increase velocity, at least a smidgeon? If so, then one might say that freebore increases (allows for greater) velocity.

If you happened to be imagining that story, then you were somehow broadcasting it to me as well.

What the people are talking about here with the 458WM and the Weatherbies is different.

Freebore in the 458WM means that the bullet leaves the case and still has to traverse +- 1 cm of chamber before entering the actual leade (which is approximately the same diameter as the bullet - AFTER running through the chamber which is the same diameter as the bullet PLUS 2x the case thickness - thus allowing the gases to shoot past the bullet until the bullet gets wedged into the leade.

Weatherby freebore was simply not having rifling for a certain distance in the leade, but it was still the same diameter as the bullet.

Just the way I see the conversation going.

 

[IvW]

The 458 LOTT can be loaded to higher velocity at lower chamber pressure than the 458 Win. One source of information is not enough to compare cartridges.

Perhaps Norma download the LOTT to protect themselves due to some 458 LOTT double rifle user's out there, who knows.

The LOTT correctly loaded will out perform the 458 Win by a large margin.

I am not a fan of both, there are better choices. But the 458 Win is not a good one and probably the worst one in calibers 458 and up, when considering a DG rifle for Africa.

Loaded to max(in order to try and achieve what it was intended to do in the first place), which is duplicate the 470 NE in a bolt action on a standard size action, it unfortunately just does not make the grade, definately not as a Elephant caliber. Cannot shoot a 500 grain bullet at an acceptable velocity at a low enough chamber pressure to ensure absolute extraction during fast reloading.

If I had to use a DG rifle in 458 caliber I would only consider the 450 Rigby.

Between the 458 Win and LOTT, it is a no brainer, LOTT all the way.

Personally I don't like belts or straight wall cases on a DG rifle cartridge. 416 Rigby, 404 JEFF, 450 Rigby and then my personal choice 505 JEFF fall in the category I prefer.

This is my own opinion and based on my experience and bad experiences with the 458 Win in the past.

 

[CTDolan]

I agree on the 450 Rigby front. For some of us, though, the Lott is a much more affordable option (as for the 458 Win Mag, with the Lott now so commonplace, and able to shoot the Win Mag in a pinch, why would anyone not go for the Lott over the Win Mag?).

Regarding belted cases, they're fine unless one intends to reload, in which case it becomes something of a pain as you need a collet to re-size just above the belt.

 

[BC.Pat]

Personally I don't like belts or straight wall cases on a DG rifle cartridge.

x 2

 

[Luvthunt]

I had a 458 win mag for several years and was never able able to reach fpm above 2000 fpm without hard bolt lift. Put pp. 350 to 400 rounds through the rifle and over a chrony. Decided to have it rechambered to Lott in 1995. Work was complete and the smith did a great job on the ramp and rails. With IMR 4320 was able to obtain 2280fpm ave of 50 rounds. Tried many powders but came back to imr 4320 with 500 gr bullets. Was able to exceed 2300fps but bolt handle lift was hard. Settled on the 2280 FPS load.
In 1999 hunted Zim and the Ph had a Lott and was using loads from a commercial loader here in the states. His reloads were with Barnes 500 gr TX and solids. He gave me one of each and when I returned home I pulled the bullets and weighed the powder which looked like a known Win ball powder. By the way the powder had started to coagulate with several little balls in each load. The ball powder in the past, as I understand had a hydroscopic characteristic. Putting all back together and firing over my chrony showed less then 21oo FPS in my rifle.
This is not a criticism only reporting what was done by me. Holes in all.

 

[CTDolan]

Win 748 is known to clump, especially when compressed (and some of the published Lott loads, with Win 748 are, believe it or not, compressed!).

 

[Gert Odendaal]

As I am not qualified to give an experienced hunting opinion about the .458 Win Mag since I only own one to hunt plains game with . Reading about the use of the .458 Win Mag and it`s hunting capacity as a elephant/buffalo culling rifle by Richard Harland and Terry Irwin using the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer to cull elephant/buffalo on large scale ( Richard Harland culled more than 6000 elephants in the Rhodesian corridors ) Richard Harland had a special culling method by brain shooting the matriarch , run up along her front leg and commence culling the herd around him , shooting fast and accurate...elephants that was not shot the first time would then be shot by his tracer with a double .470 cal...Richard and Terry mentioned they have , had never experienced difficulties with their .458 Mannlicher Scheonauer rifles.....I really do not understand that with today`s premium bullets and powder there are still hunters insisted that they will not use a .458 Win Mag to hunt elephant and buffalo....
Yes, I agree there are better calibers to do it nowadays .

but the use of the .458 Win Mag in those days was used in a brilliant manner of culling and hunting..when a lot of elephants was cull on a grand scale , not like today where one or two elephants are hunted by hunters abroad.. Maybe it would be clear up some misconceptions about the .458 Win Mag when hunters will disclose the distances they shoot the elephants from today ... in those days elephants were shot at point blank range...maybe the manner in how the hunter approach the elephant/buffalo today is different ..

 

[Ray B]

Maybe it would be clear up some misconceptions about the .458 Win Mag when hunters will disclose the distances they shoot the elephants from today ... in those days elephants were shot at point blank range...maybe the manner in how the hunter approach the elephant/buffalo today is different ..

I am interested in learning that. So hopefully those that have killed elephants would be so kind as to list the various amounts of yardage involved with each shot.

 

[BenKK]

I had a 458 win mag for several years and was never able able to reach fpm above 2000 fpm without hard bolt lift. Put pp. 350 to 400 rounds through the rifle and over a chrony. Decided to have it rechambered to Lott in 1995. Work was complete and the smith did a great job on the ramp and rails. With IMR 4320 was able to obtain 2280fpm ave of 50 rounds. Tried many powders but came back to imr 4320 with 500 gr bullets. Was able to exceed 2300fps but bolt handle lift was hard. [/I]

I wonder if there wasn’t a headspace problem (having recently experienced that with a smaller cartridge)?

When I had a M70 .458WM I loaded 500 grain Woodleigh softs and solids at about 2050fps, from memory, with slightly compressed powder.

I enjoyed hunting buffalo with it. Shot some absolute monsters, including one injured by another hunter that I had to track down - that bull wanted a piece of me, and it was tricky situation at twenty metres.

 

[BenKK]

I would own a nice .458WM again in a heartbeat if I could.

 

[Luvthunt]

CTDolan,
Loaded around 600 rounds for the Lott and most were compressed loads. Particularly with 500 gr Barnes solids. Altho 500 gr Tx were also crimped hard. Remember in most cases my loads were shot within a week or two so OAL usually did not grow.
Ended by using only 500 gr Swift A-Frames and Trophy bonded sledhammers with a few Hornadys 500 solids. Prefer the Sledgehammers.
And you are correct the Win 748 was compressed HARD.
As stated, for my rifle IMR 4320 was the powder. That was a fun project that went on for a couple of years or more.
I was shooting on a public range and always gathered a few onlookers as to the extent the barrel raised up off the front sandbag rest. Finally gave in and had it Mag n Ported to keep the muzzle down.

 

[IvW]

As I am not qualified to give an experienced hunting opinion about the .458 Win Mag since I only own one to hunt plains game with . Reading about the use of the .458 Win Mag and it`s hunting capacity as a elephant/buffalo culling rifle by Richard Harland and Terry Irwin using the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer to cull elephant/buffalo on large scale ( Richard Harland culled more than 6000 elephants in the Rhodesian corridors ) Richard Harland had a special culling method by brain shooting the matriarch , run up along her front leg and commence culling the herd around him , shooting fast and accurate...elephants that was not shot the first time would then be shot by his tracer with a double .470 cal...Richard and Terry mentioned they have , had never experienced difficulties with their .458 Mannlicher Scheonauer rifles.....I really do not understand that with today`s premium bullets and powder there are still hunters insisted that they will not use a .458 Win Mag to hunt elephant and buffalo....
Yes, I agree there are better calibers to do it nowadays .

but the use of the .458 Win Mag in those days was used in a brilliant manner of culling and hunting..when a lot of elephants was cull on a grand scale , not like today where one or two elephants are hunted by hunters abroad.. Maybe it would be clear up some misconceptions about the .458 Win Mag when hunters will disclose the distances they shoot the elephants from today ... in those days elephants were shot at point blank range...maybe the manner in how the hunter approach the elephant/buffalo today is different ..

As I am not qualified to give an experienced hunting opinion about the .458 Win Mag since I only own one to hunt plains game with . Reading about the use of the .458 Win Mag and it`s hunting capacity as a elephant/buffalo culling rifle by Richard Harland and Terry Irwin using the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer to cull elephant/buffalo on large scale ( Richard Harland culled more than 6000 elephants in the Rhodesian corridors ) Richard Harland had a special culling method by brain shooting the matriarch , run up along her front leg and commence culling the herd around him , shooting fast and accurate...elephants that was not shot the first time would then be shot by his tracer with a double .470 cal...Richard and Terry mentioned they have , had never experienced difficulties with their .458 Mannlicher Scheonauer rifles.....I really do not understand that with today`s premium bullets and powder there are still hunters insisted that they will not use a .458 Win Mag to hunt elephant and buffalo....
Yes, I agree there are better calibers to do it nowadays .

but the use of the .458 Win Mag in those days was used in a brilliant manner of culling and hunting..when a lot of elephants was cull on a grand scale , not like today where one or two elephants are hunted by hunters abroad.. Maybe it would be clear up some misconceptions about the .458 Win Mag when hunters will disclose the distances they shoot the elephants from today ... in those days elephants were shot at point blank range...maybe the manner in how the hunter approach the elephant/buffalo today is different ..

It has to be remembered that Richard Harland and other professionals shot thousands of elephant with the rifles they were issued with and NOT with rifles in calibers they could choose. He knows exactly where to shoot an elephant to reach the brain from any angle. This was all a close range affair. He shot so many elephant that he was in constant supply of new ammo.

Tsuro, Richards tracker, did indeed use a double rifle that had its stock butchered, it was not a 470 NE. It was an ill fitting rifle and Richard never used it.

He loves the Mannlicher rifle due to the magazine rotary design, capacity and smooth feeding which is essential in cropping operations and that was the best rifle available from the department at the time, so he had no other choice.

It is very important to note that he owned and extensively used a 505 Gibbs loaded with 600 gr mono metal bullets when he guided clients on safari for elephant and this was his rifle of choice when conducting such safaris.

In August 1967, a South African Defence Force general, Victor Verster, shot a bull elephant on the north bank of the Runde River, in the shadow of the Chilojo Cliffs. The left tusk went 62kg (137lbs) and the right tusk 48kg (107lbs). In those days the Runde River north bank was a Controlled Hunting Area reserved for VIPs helping sanctions bound Rhodesia, they were allowed “free” hunting. He was guided by Richard Harland.

This is the largest set of tusks ever believed to be hunted in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe.

There is no substitute for experience, however trying to make something what it is not could have bad consequences. A marginal caliber in inexperienced hands is a disaster waiting to happen. A 458 WM is a bad choice for a visiting client to use on elephant. If he/she is experienced and has shot many elephant and wishes to use a 458 WM it may be slightly different.

Many better choices for a visiting hunter to use on elephant are freely available and they come without the issues that has plagued the 458 WM for all these years.

If it has to be a 458 caliber the best one is a 450 Rigby and then the 458 Lott.

Others that outperform the 458WM include, 375 H&H, 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeff all off the NE from the 450/400 NE to the 500 NE.

Then you also have all the new American variants of the mentioned calibers, so why on earth choose a caliber that since it was introduced cannot deliver what it was designed to do and then try and tweak it to do what it cannot do by fooling around with lighter for caliber bullets or seating bullets further out, which all come with additional risks. The wrong way to go on a DG rifle, especially when the intention is to hunt elephant. Elephant are reasonably easy to kill, however if a wounded elephant gets hold of you it is the member of the big 5 with the highest percentage chance of causing death of the hunter and that percentage is a high one.

Just buy or build a rifle that can do what it should do especially when intending on hunting elephant, the 458 WM unfortunately is not such a caliber, it is marginal for hunting elephant by an inexperienced visiting hunter.

Personally I will never touch a 458WM for any work on DG.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I had no chance to avoid this...

I already had a Mauser 66S in .458 Win-Mag.

Than I had an encounter with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer MC in .458..... I could not withstand....



HWL

HWL, I think is the member who made the best choice, he bought a .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer with a rotary magazine. This same rifle in the hands of four great rangers/Professional hunters has shot thousands of elephants and buffalo and any other game animal in Africa. So, forget the .458 Lott, use the 458 Win Mag like Richard Harland, Terry Irwin, to name two of the greatest hunters/cullers in big game hunting /conservation history...

Take in account shooting at an elephant , side ways-ear-hole/side brain shot, lung/hart shot from maximum twenty paces /meters any .458 Win Mag caliber rifle will be able to penetrate into the vitals...the front brain shot at fifteen meters maybe the most difficult shot , but at fifteen meters , if you miss..you still have time to shoot at the ear-hole, hart, hip bone or at the spine when it turns to run...
This will be exactly the same for buffalo...this was proofed already many years ago even with the "poor quality ammo " of yesteryear..do you really need a .458 Lott to hunt elephant and buffalo ??
It seems the dangerous game animals of yesteryear has commenced growing extremely thick bone structure and skin , a type of Kevlar bullet proof skin...evolving from those days

 

[CBH Australia]

I too considered re-chambering my .458, and asked the questions. Some will say you can improve the performance while running lower pressures to get similar result of .458 performance with the option of loading to utilise the Lott to full potential.

Take home message from all this

N01. Shot placement
N02. Quality projectile suited to the task.
No3. Competence, Be competent with the rifle whatever the game, iron out the bugs,
No4.) Practice will build competency. Don't confuse confidence with competence!

It seems the .458 got a bad reputation due to ammo, Plenty say that is a thing of the past. better to shoot with something that you shoot well than something that will cause a flinch.

There are many that will outperform both. that is why the PH may use them as a stopping rifle. If you get your shot right they wont get to use the stopping rifle.

That's my view as an "Armchair" expert for this morning.