458 Winchester super grade pre 64 to re blue or not?

[duckfish]

I recently acquired his 458 super grade Winchester, serial number401xxx
I’m trying to decide whether to re blue the gun or not give me some feed back thanks.

 

[CZDiesel]

I would say this rifle is a perfect rifle for a restoration. It has lost its collector value due to condition but if sent to someone that is reputable for a restock and blueing it would once again have value to many others

 

[duckfish]

I would say this rifle is a perfect rifle for a restoration. It has lost its collector value due to condition but if sent to someone that is reputable for a restock and blueing it would once again have value to many others

Stock is in good shape no cracks just the blueing that’s the pits literally

 

[Mekaniks]

Yes, perfect candidate for a re blue as long as the rifling and action are good

 

[duckfish]

Yes, perfect candidate for a re blue as long as the rifling and action are good

Shot it today shoots like a champ

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I would say this rifle is a perfect rifle for a restoration. It has lost its collector value due to condition but if sent to someone that is reputable for a restock and blueing it would once again have value to many others

I’d actually disagree with this statement. A Pre64 458WM is vastly different than a Pre64 270 or 3006 that can be found most days checking a couple of different LGS that deal in a lot of used guns.

Due to the low number of Pre64 African Super Grades made (56-63) this gun has value regardless of the condition. As long as it maintains the original finish, you’ll maintain some value. In 60% condition the guns worth $3k or more. The better the condition the higher the value goes. Once you refinish this gun you’ll loose that $3k value (@60%) and don’t gain anything by it being in better condition. There are plenty of collectors who buy 60-80% condition guns to fill a hole in their collection, while looking to upgrade them down the road.

My personal opinion is keep it as is, hunt with and enjoy it. You’ll maintain at least the present value due to the very finite number made, since they get fewer and fewer each year when people try to restore them.

 

[BoarHog375]

Leave it be and use it!

 

[Green Chile]

I’d actually disagree with this statement. A Pre64 458WM is vastly different than a Pre64 270 or 3006 that can be found most days checking a couple of different LGS that deal in a lot of used guns.

Due to the low number of Pre64 African Super Grades made (56-63) this gun has value regardless of the condition. As long as it maintains the original finish, you’ll maintain some value. In 60% condition the guns worth $3k or more. The better the condition the higher the value goes. Once you refinish this gun you’ll loose that $3k value (@60%) and don’t gain anything by it being in better condition. There are plenty of collectors who buy 60-80% condition guns to fill a hole in their collection, while looking to upgrade them down the road.

My personal opinion is keep it as is, hunt with and enjoy it. You’ll maintain at least the present value due to the very finite number made, since they get fewer and fewer each year when people try to restore them.

Great reply from a knowledgeable Winchester collector. I would leave it as is. Far too many vintage guns are refinished.

 

[CZDiesel]

Stock is in good shape no cracks just the blueing that’s the pits literally

I’d actually disagree with this statement. A Pre64 458WM is vastly different than a Pre64 270 or 3006 that can be found most days checking a couple of different LGS that deal in a lot of used guns.

Due to the low number of Pre64 African Super Grades made (56-63) this gun has value regardless of the condition. As long as it maintains the original finish, you’ll maintain some value. In 60% condition the guns worth $3k or more. The better the condition the higher the value goes. Once you refinish this gun you’ll loose that $3k value (@60%) and don’t gain anything by it being in better condition. There are plenty of collectors who buy 60-80% condition guns to fill a hole in their collection, while looking to upgrade them down the road.

My personal opinion is keep it as is, hunt with and enjoy it. You’ll maintain at least the present value due to the very finite number made, since they get fewer and fewer each year when people try to restore them.

I agree to disagree lol I too have a whole wall of Winchesters and have been collecting for over 30 years. Does this make me the authority? No! And your opinion is as valuable as mine for sure…
Buuuut! That rifle in mint grade to very good grade will bring between $10,000 and $12,000 for sale or auction…
That rifle in good to average grade will bring between $6,000 to $8,000 for sale or auction…
That rifle in the condition it is, with pitted and worn bluing, along with a handled and dinged stock falls in the below average to poor category and is in the $3,000 range and won’t bring more…
Now saying that it’s a diamond in the rough!!!
Seriously! You send that to the likes of a LeRoy Berry to restore and restock the value will jump to $15,000 to $20,000 depending on the level of finish!
So to the OP yes reblue if you want because even if reblued it will still bring the same money as it is in the current condition!
But if you were to really go all out and sink $10k into it you’d probably double your money on it at auction or sale as long as the rebuild was from a well known and reputable custom rifle and stock maker…

 

[Certus]

It’s your rifle - if you want it reblued then reblue it

 

[Piet-Vis]

I agree to disagree lol I too have a whole wall of Winchesters and have been collecting for over 30 years. Does this make me the authority? No! And your opinion is as valuable as mine for sure…
Buuuut! That rifle in mint grade to very good grade will bring between $10,000 and $12,000 for sale or auction…
That rifle in good to average grade will bring between $6,000 to $8,000 for sale or auction…
That rifle in the condition it is, with pitted and worn bluing, along with a handled and dinged stock falls in the below average to poor category and is in the $3,000 range and won’t bring more…
Now saying that it’s a diamond in the rough!!!
Seriously! You send that to the likes of a LeRoy Berry to restore and restock the value will jump to $15,000 to $20,000 depending on the level of finish!
So to the OP yes reblue if you want because even if reblued it will still bring the same money as it is in the current condition!
But if you were to really go all out and sink $10k into it you’d probably double your money on it at auction or sale as long as the rebuild was from a well known and reputable custom rifle and stock maker…

Very interesting comment, please expand on it? (I have 458 African that was reblued, but is otherwise in very good shape).
Are there a market for custom 458 Africans?

 

[deewayne2003]

I agree to disagree lol I too have a whole wall of Winchesters and have been collecting for over 30 years. Does this make me the authority? No! And your opinion is as valuable as mine for sure…
Buuuut! That rifle in mint grade to very good grade will bring between $10,000 and $12,000 for sale or auction…
That rifle in good to average grade will bring between $6,000 to $8,000 for sale or auction…
That rifle in the condition it is, with pitted and worn bluing, along with a handled and dinged stock falls in the below average to poor category and is in the $3,000 range and won’t bring more…
Now saying that it’s a diamond in the rough!!!
Seriously! You send that to the likes of a LeRoy Berry to restore and restock the value will jump to $15,000 to $20,000 depending on the level of finish!
So to the OP yes reblue if you want because even if reblued it will still bring the same money as it is in the current condition!
But if you were to really go all out and sink $10k into it you’d probably double your money on it at auction or sale as long as the rebuild was from a well known and reputable custom rifle and stock maker…

I would like to see a restored .458 bring $15-20k

Because I’ve seen a couple of .458 pre 64’s go to auction in the last couple of years, that were expertly restored and both failed to break $6K at auction….. and god knows what the restoration bill was.

 

[RR 314]

I would like to see a restored .458 bring $15-20k

Because I’ve seen a couple of .458 pre 64’s go to auction in the last couple of years, that were expertly restored and both failed to break $6K at auction….. and god knows what the restoration bill was.

I am in your camp on this. Scarcity/originality is the driver of value on the super grade .458s. I think the value of a completely refinished/restocked pre-64 (from Berry etc.) is not significantly higher than a later G series action or pre-64 born in another chambering.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

How much has OP got in his rifle? Does he intend to hunt with it or resell? I'm not into collecting or gun running so I wouldn't hesitate to reblue the metal and refinish the stock if I intended to hunt with it (but 458 is more gun than I'll ever want for hunting).

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I agree to disagree lol I too have a whole wall of Winchesters and have been collecting for over 30 years. Does this make me the authority? No! And your opinion is as valuable as mine for sure…
Buuuut! That rifle in mint grade to very good grade will bring between $10,000 and $12,000 for sale or auction…
That rifle in good to average grade will bring between $6,000 to $8,000 for sale or auction…
That rifle in the condition it is, with pitted and worn bluing, along with a handled and dinged stock falls in the below average to poor category and is in the $3,000 range and won’t bring more…
Now saying that it’s a diamond in the rough!!!
Seriously! You send that to the likes of a LeRoy Berry to restore and restock the value will jump to $15,000 to $20,000 depending on the level of finish!
So to the OP yes reblue if you want because even if reblued it will still bring the same money as it is in the current condition!
But if you were to really go all out and sink $10k into it you’d probably double your money on it at auction or sale as long as the rebuild was from a well known and reputable custom rifle and stock maker…

I’m not saying I’m the authority but I’ll agree to disagree.

We can both agree the external pitting puts it in the below average to poor condition category. No argument from me

Maybe I’m an outlier, but here’s part of my reasoning for my opinion/suggestion.
Book on a 100% condition original finished gun isn’t even $10k (I’ve seen them go higher). At 98% condition book say $8500. Book also says under this specific model (not others) “Retains considerable "shooter" value in lesser external conditions”. I know blue book isn’t the gospel, just citing a couple of tangible references.

We can both also agree if the OP merely reblues the gun it stays in the same $3k value category (I’d actually say less now) BUT the OP’s now sunk more money into the gun on top of his initial purchase price. In my mind doing this is akin to refinishing one’s kitchen and bathroom before selling a house with a cracked foundation and roof that’s caving in.

Your suggestion to send it to LeRoy isn’t restoring the gun, it’s making it a custom. You do so at an investment of $10k or more, on top of whatever the OP paid for the gun. You say this to potentially realize more money at an auction, compared to what a buyer could have done themselves for less money than they’re spending.

Where we disagree is what the OP should do.
Fact: There’s an extremely finite number of Pre64 African Super Grades, widely accepted as 1,226 in total. Fact: Most of the best examples are in collectors safes, many of whom own multiple (ask how I know). Fact: The exact number of the original 1,226 remaining is unknown. This is due to many having been lost, destroyed, or modified by a hunter who wasn’t thinking of future value when they bought it (i know of/have seen a couple personally including a 458 Lott). Fact: Each time one is refinished that’s one less original out there (regardless of condition).
Opinion: 10 years from now the value of an unrestored/unrefinished below average to poor condition African Super Grade like this will continue to increase. Compare that to one that’s been reblued or refinished where the blueing is now starting to wear again from use or show imperfections due to aging and it won’t.

Again, my opinion/suggestion to the OP is to shoot and enjoy the rifle as is. Go shoot a buffalo or elephant with it. You’re not going to hurt the value further if you maintain it. There are plenty of collectors like myself who’d take it off your hands in present condition. Heck, I’d even offer to trade a post64 CRF with some ammo or cash. You’ve got options but don’t reblue or refinish.

 

[Taylorz1]

Please done refinish !! That gun earned its wear and rust. Sell it to me and buy a new safari express.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

How much has OP got in his rifle? Does he intend to hunt with it or resell? I'm not into collecting or gun running so I wouldn't hesitate to reblue the metal and refinish the stock if I intended to hunt with it (but 458 is more gun than I'll ever want for hunting).

This is the exact reason they’re worth what they’re worth in poor condition and why I’d leave it.

Not knocking @Ontario Hunter comment because it’s your rifle do what you want. I see his point of view if you’re going to use it but proves my comment above, as well as confirming @RR 314 about a G Series and why someone like me would buy, use, and hold onto a gun like this.

 

[gbflyer]

Leaver B.

 

[Denvir Tire]

I'll not chime in regarding the refinishing of this particular rifle, however I'd like to ask for opinions regarding the sanctity of rusted, scratched old rifles of any make.
If the topic before us was a rare,low production Ferrari, who would counsel to leave it rusty and dented?
The same can be said regarding antique clocks, old instruments, old colonial houses in New England, and the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel?
Why is an old gun so sacrosanct ?
Tell me that it's Teddy Roosevelt's personal African rifle, I understand and agree. Show me a rare M70 that belonged to a hardware store owner from Moosehead Lake, Maine and is now rusted and scratched, why do we revere it's "Patina", ie rust and damage, so much??

 

[cajunchefray]

I recently acquired his 458 super grade Winchester, serial number401xxx
I’m trying to decide whether to re blue the gun or not give me some feed back thanks.

View attachment 654963View attachment 654964View attachment 654965View attachment 654966View attachment 654967

Frequent coating on the wood and metal with Ballistol, followed by metal treatment with Rangoon Oil.

That rifle has character. Personally, I would not refinish.