458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott....The facts

[Grumpy gumpy]

Kangaroos and possums with a 560gr. bullet? You should have been using your 6.5 Creedmoor for those and saved the big stuff for camels, scrub bulls and such in OZ. LOL

I don’t have a creedmoor, closest to that would be my 25/35 on a martini
My normal wind bag load is a 405 gn pill, they work just as well
Gumpy

 

[CoElkHunter]

I don’t have a creedmoor, closest to that would be my 25/35 on a martini
My normal wind bag load is a 405 gn pill, they work just as well
Gumpy

Try some 350gr. Speer Hot Cores in your WM. I use those for practice, but I'd bet they'd be great for thin skinned non DG game up to and including moose sized animals?

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Try some 350gr. Speer Hot Cores in your WM. I use those for practice, but I'd bet they'd be great for thin skinned non DG game up to and including moose sized animals?

I’ve got some Speer hollow points that will drop deer and goats with ease, also 600 odd 400gn hard cast coated that is good for practice as well as culling ammo
Gumpy

 

[saswart]

Thanks! I didn’t see the description included with the photo. That express cartridge must really rock and roll compared to the Lott?

Not really the express was built as a result of lack of powders available in South Africa and the extra space allowed for slower burning powder with less pressure which resulted in less recoil with same speed.

Frederik is correct. I have an Express (long story about how I got it, but in short wanted a 458 WM/Lott in a Brno/CZ action, to build a 450 Rigby. Now a few years later, I can honestly say, I am very satisfied with the Express. Similarly with the Lott and the WM.

It is true, with the lack of powders year ago the Express was created, resulting in less pressure and recoil. This is the beauty of the Express and maybe the Lott over the WM, it gives you that extra room, for a bit more slower burning powder. I am not a reloading expert; but someone explained it once to me (maybe someone can put it on here) the consideration of Load ratio...maybe a discussion for another thread?

@CoElkHunter we did once experiment with the 458 Express and the extra room and loaded it per spec with faster powder. I cannot recall the detail, but it was a 500gr at 2300+ and boy did it have a punch.

Imho, a Lott / WM / Express all have the same felt recoil - it is not a jump between them like from a 375 to a 416 etc. Then again, my 416 Rigby feels to me it has more recoil than my Express... I personally have no issue with either a WM/Lott/Express/Rigby - only with a 460 Weatherby

 

[458 Exp]

I’m currently experimenting using VV N550 in the Express instead of the VV N540 I was using.

According to the experts I should get 2250 fps out of my 25” barrel but with what I’m guessing a pleasant recoil.

 

[CJW]

Holy balls! This WM vs Lott stuff seems confusing. Next time someone asks I'm telling them to go right for the 45/70 and be done with it. Preferably in a lever.

 

[TOBY458]

Holy balls! This WM vs Lott stuff seems confusing. Next time someone asks I'm telling them to go right for the 45/70 and be done with it. Preferably in a lever.

No really. If you find a rifle you like in either caliber, just buy it. Either caliber will work for whatever you need to do with a 458.

 

[intj]

Holy balls! This WM vs Lott stuff seems confusing. Next time someone asks I'm telling them to go right for the 45/70 and be done with it. Preferably in a lever.

It's really not confusing. While internet trash talkers do try muddy the waters, just ignore them.

The people whose opinions count the most are the PHs and guides who you will be hunting with. After that, people who have real world experience can offer useful perspective.

I think you'll find that most of these people will tell you to find a cartridge you can shoot well, pick a good quality and appropriate bullet, and practice.

It's very rewarding when you research, think it through, test, and practice; and the result in a well placed first shot on a DG animal with a quick kill.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

The information provided in all preceding posts is all great and it boils down to this:

1. Cartridge overall length (COL) is the key to peak performance from these straight wall cases.
   1. If a 458 Winchester Magnum and a 458 Lott or a 458 whatever chamber have the same distance from the breach face to lands of the rifling, any of those cartridges can be loaded to the same performance.
      1. Caveat; cartridge case must be long enough for enough case wall to securely hold the bullet. Rule of thumb for this is as much case wall for bullet seating depth as the diameter of the bullet. One can load with less bullet seating depth at their own risk
2. Some if not all 458 Win Mag chambers are cut with for longer COL (breach face to lands of the rifling) than are most chambers for the 458 Lott. Strange but true.
   1. If one reamed a Lott chamber with a Win Mag reamer, the resulting distance from breach to rifling would be the same longer COL of the Win Mag.
   2. See #1 above, same OAL = same potential performance
3. Factory loads having the same projectiles for the 458 Lott should be faster and thus more powerful than those for the 458 Winchester Magnum.
   1. The higher velocity of the Lott will generate more recoil than the Win Mag in similar rifles.
   2. The higher energy of the Lott may not be necessary with good shot placement for most hunters.
   3. A proper 500 grain projectile fired from either a 458 Winchester Magnum or Lott at muzzle velocity of 2150 fps or higher is an elephant and everything else killer!
4. A 458 Lott rifle can fire the Win Mag but not vice-versa making a rifle chambered for the Lott more versatile if one loses their ammunition!
5. Factory chambering’s for the 458 Win Mag normally allow longer cartridge overall length (COL) than factory chambered Lott rifles but Lott rifles normally have more OAL capacity in their magazines!
6. “Operational COL” in a magazine rifle is limited by the not only the length of the chamber’s throat, but also by the inside length of the magazine.
7. A good gunsmith can modify your rifle or for longer COL and magazine, you could buy a 450 Rigby, 500 Jeffery, 505 Gibbs or some type of .50 Browning…

 

[TOBY458]

The information provided in all preceding posts is all great and it boils down to this:

1. Cartridge overall length (COL) is the key to peak performance from these straight wall cases.
   1. If a 458 Winchester Magnum and a 458 Lott or a 458 whatever chamber have the same distance from the breach face to lands of the rifling, any of those cartridges can be loaded to the same performance.
      1. Caveat; cartridge case must be long enough for enough case wall to securely hold the bullet. Rule of thumb for this is as much case wall for bullet seating depth as the diameter of the bullet. One can load with less bullet seating depth at their own risk
2. Some if not all 458 Win Mag chambers are cut with for longer COL (breach face to lands of the rifling) than are most chambers for the 458 Lott. Strange but true.
   1. If one reamed a Lott chamber with a Win Mag reamer, the resulting distance from breach to rifling would be the same longer COL of the Win Mag.
   2. See #1 above, same OAL = same potential performance
3. Factory loads having the same projectiles for the 458 Lott should be faster and thus more powerful than those for the 458 Winchester Magnum.
   1. The higher velocity of the Lott will generate more recoil than the Win Mag in similar rifles.
   2. The higher energy of the Lott may not be necessary with good shot placement for most hunters.
   3. A proper 500 grain projectile fired from either a 458 Winchester Magnum or Lott at muzzle velocity of 2150 fps or higher is an elephant and everything else killer!
4. A 458 Lott rifle can fire the Win Mag but not vice-versa making a rifle chambered for the Lott more versatile if one loses their ammunition!
5. Factory chambering’s for the 458 Win Mag normally allow longer cartridge overall length (COL) than factory chambered Lott rifles but Lott rifles normally have more OAL capacity in their magazines!
6. “Operational COL” in a magazine rifle is limited by the not only the length of the chamber’s throat, but also by the inside length of the magazine.
7. A good gunsmith can modify your rifle or for longer COL and magazine, you could buy a 450 Rigby, 500 Jeffery, 505 Gibbs or some type of .50 Browning…

Pretty much sums it up!

 

[CoElkHunter]

Frederik is correct. I have an Express (long story about how I got it, but in short wanted a 458 WM/Lott in a Brno/CZ action, to build a 450 Rigby. Now a few years later, I can honestly say, I am very satisfied with the Express. Similarly with the Lott and the WM.

It is true, with the lack of powders year ago the Express was created, resulting in less pressure and recoil. This is the beauty of the Express and maybe the Lott over the WM, it gives you that extra room, for a bit more slower burning powder. I am not a reloading expert; but someone explained it once to me (maybe someone can put it on here) the consideration of Load ratio...maybe a discussion for another thread?

@CoElkHunter we did once experiment with the 458 Express and the extra room and loaded it per spec with faster powder. I cannot recall the detail, but it was a 500gr at 2300+ and boy did it have a punch.

Imho, a Lott / WM / Express all have the same felt recoil - it is not a jump between them like from a 375 to a 416 etc. Then again, my 416 Rigby feels to me it has more recoil than my Express... I personally have no issue with either a WM/Lott/Express/Rigby - only with a 460 Weatherby

It's interesting that you mention your .416 Rigby has more "felt" recoil than your Express. My 10.5lb. scoped CZ550 Rigby to ME, seems to have more felt recoil than my 9.3lb. unscoped CZ550 .458 Lott? Strange, because various recoil tables say otherwise. Someone here mentioned in another thread that the longer burn rate of the Rigby with slower powder creates more felt recoil. If that's the case, wouldn't the Express have MORE felt recoil with the slower powder and thus longer burn rate? It's all very interesting to me. I CAN tell you, my .416 Taylor has noticeably less felt recoil than my Rigby in my unscoped 8.5lb. Interarms Whitworth rifle. I'm using RL15 in the Taylor which I believe is a faster powder and producing higher pressure but the recoil is less than the Rigby? I don't get it.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Holy balls! This WM vs Lott stuff seems confusing. Next time someone asks I'm telling them to go right for the 45/70 and be done with it. Preferably in a lever.

Next up, are the .416s. No .45/70 equivalent for those. Ha! Ha! Ha!

 

[hoytcanon]

Try some 350gr. Speer Hot Cores in your WM. I use those for practice, but I'd bet they'd be great for thin skinned non DG game up to and including moose sized animals?

I've shot some big bears and moose with the Speer 350 HC's and they worked out perfectly. In my new .458 WM Carbine they were hanging up on the loading ramp so I filed them down into RN's... but that got old fast and I switched to the Hornady 350 RN's.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I've shot some big bears and moose with the Speer 350 HC's and they worked out perfectly. In my new .458 WM Carbine they were hanging up on the loading ramp so I filed them down into RN's... but that got old fast and I switched to the Hornady 350 RN's.

"my new .458 WM carbine"? Do tell. Please describe that rifle because I'm intrigued. Thanks!

 

[hoytcanon]

"my new .458 WM carbine"? Do tell. Please describe that rifle because I'm intrigued. Thanks!

I've posted it before... Ruger M77 Mark II Stainless Carbine, 20" Bob Jury barrel, NECG sights, B&C stock, Leupold VX-R 2-7X33 IR scope.

This is the doe I shot with it the other day where the Nosler 300 BT exploded and caused a mess. I do not recommend this bullet for hunting.

 

[intj]

It's interesting that you mention your .416 Rigby has more "felt" recoil than your Express. My 10.5lb. scoped CZ550 Rigby to ME, seems to have more felt recoil than my 9.3lb. unscoped CZ550 .458 Lott? Strange, because various recoil tables say otherwise. Someone here mentioned in another thread that the longer burn rate of the Rigby with slower powder creates more felt recoil. If that's the case, wouldn't the Express have MORE felt recoil with the slower powder and thus longer burn rate? It's all very interesting to me. I CAN tell you, my .416 Taylor has noticeably less felt recoil than my Rigby in my unscoped 8.5lb. Interarms Whitworth rifle. I'm using RL15 in the Taylor which I believe is a faster powder and producing higher pressure but the recoil is less than the Rigby? I don't get it.

As we all know, felt recoil doesn't always follow the calculators. Along with powder type, bullet, weight, and velocity; how well the stock fits makes a difference--maybe more than we would think. That said, I am fully with you that I don't really get it either.

In Africa last Aug a few of us shot my M-70 in 416 Rem (SAF @ 2430), the PHs M-70
458 Lott (500 grainer @ 2200 fps), and his 375 Ruger (300 grainer at 2550ish IIRC).

All of these rifles were in the 10 lb range. We agreed that my 416 had the most felt recoil, next was the 375 Ruger, then the Lott. It's not what we expected. The 416 was a little snappy, the 375 a little less so, and the Lott was no snap but all push--though I bet another 100 fps would have changed that with the Lott.

The 416 was in a McMillan super grade stock, the Lott in the Winchester Express stock, and the Ruger was in its factory stock.

 

[TOBY458]

Lol !!
A group photo, at morning coffee.

View attachment 649677

I took some measurements from my R8 in 458 Win Mag today and found it has the same dimensions as your Winchester 70 in the pics you posted. Max COL is 3.920”, with a 450gr TSX. Chamber length 3.20”. With a case length of 2.5”, that gives me .70 of freebore before the bullet contacts the rifling, when fired from a standard length 458 Win Mag cartridge. I would assume that Blaser must’ve used Winchester’s chamber specs. When loaded to 3.6” it comes nowhere near touching the rifling, so I could easily load to Lott length with zero issues. The R8 has a magnum length magazine, so it works perfectly. I also have a 458 Lott barrel for my R8, but have yet to fire it. I’ll take a few measurements from it as well and see how it looks in comparison.

 

[TOBY458]

After a few measurements, I came up with the following.

R8 458 Lott
3.872” Max COL with 450gr TSX.
3.15 Chamber length.
2.8” Case Length.
.35” freebore.

So as we can see. Blaser seemingly uses almost identical length reamers for both the Win Mag and Lott chambers. The freebore for the Lott is exactly half of what it is for the Win Mag. So in essence, my Lott barrel seems to have more freebore than a typical Lott chamber. Both of my barrels will do exactly the same thing with both cartridges, loaded to identical COL of 3.6”.

So for all intents and purposes, in this case, I would be better served with the Lott barrel, simply because full power factory ammo is readily available, without having to hand load. And with the longer chamber of the R8 Lott, there is no down side.

 

[ldmay375]

After a few measurements, I came up with the following.

R8 458 Lott
3.872” Max COL with 450gr TSX.
3.15 Chamber length.
2.8” Case Length.
.35” freebore.

So as we can see. Blaser seemingly uses almost identical length reamers for both the Win Mag and Lott chambers. The freebore for the Lott is exactly half of what it is for the Win Mag. So in essence, my Lott barrel seems to have more freebore than a typical Lott chamber. Both of my barrels will do exactly the same thing with both cartridges, loaded to identical COL of 3.6”.

So for all intents and purposes, in this case, I would be better served with the Lott barrel, simply because full power factory ammo is readily available, without having to hand load. And with the longer chamber of the R8 Lott, there is no down side.

Thanks for the data Toby. Certainly some variances out there on both the 458 Winchester & Lott throats.

Certainly enough differences in some of both, to legitimize Riflecrank's classifications of Specials, etc; in both cartridges. The CZ 458 Winchester / Lott that I have is certainly a horse of another color, in both throat length and magazine length.

At some point when warmer temperatures, I want to compare velocities of my MRC loads in the Grand Canyon throat of this CZ. Though it will not be precise equal footing, the CZ at 22" and the MRC at 24" presently. Of course by the time I get around to it, the MRC might be at 22".

 

[CoElkHunter]

Thanks for the data Toby. Certainly some variances out there on both the 458 Winchester & Lott throats.

Certainly enough differences in some of both, to legitimize Riflecrank's classifications of Specials, etc; in both cartridges. The CZ 458 Winchester / Lott that I have is certainly a horse of another color, in both throat length and magazine length.

At some point when warmer temperatures, I want to compare velocities of my MRC loads in the Grand Canyon throat of this CZ. Though it will not be precise equal footing, the CZ at 22" and the MRC at 24" presently. Of course by the time I get around to it, the MRC might be at 22".

Yes. I would like to see the same measurements for the CZ550 in the Lott and WM. I have both and am now very curious.