458 Win Mag. Short Barrel Chrono Results...

[Tanks]

Then we'd put the B&M guys out of business. Can't be doing that!

Not really. B&Ms are at 18".

One of the very few instances where guys brag about having a shorter length.

 

[michael458]

Then we'd put the B&M guys out of business. Can't be doing that!

Hey, don't worry, those guys will find something to do.........

One of the very few instances where guys brag about having a shorter length.

Some things we just don't talk about in public.........

 

[Forrest Halley]

Heavens no! Don't go flaunting your short magnum action... People will laugh and call you the little engine that could...Toot! Toot!

 

[ldmay375]

Toby, thanks for the report!
I am a big fan of 20-22” barrel lengths on 375’s, 416’s, and 458’s.

I have a few 20”, 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger rifles with the 20” barrels, they are among my favorite rifles. I have a couple of 20” and 22” barrels on 375 H&H’s, and 22” barrels on 416 Remington, 458 Winchester and 458 Lott.
I personally have little use for barrels over 22” on 375’s through 458’s. Though 20” is as short as I care for on these. I have a couple 24” ones, that are on the list for a barrel trim.

I recently cut the barrel down on my Winchester 70 458 WM to 21 1/4". I was looking to lighten up the rifle a bit, and to gain a little handiness in the process. I have always been curious as to how much velocity one could get with a short-ish barrel on a 458 Win Mag. I have also recently been intrigued by the Cutting Edge Bullets. The following results show what I have been able to achieve so far.

258 gr CEB Socom 2800 fps.
370 gr CEB LG Raptor 2380 fps.
420 gr CEB Raptor/450gr Solid 2200 fps.

These results are only slightly behind what you can achieve with a 24" barrel. By the accounts of people who have used these bullets, there is nothing you can't hunt with this line up. According to very reliable sources, the 450gr CEB solids will shoot through the biggest bull Elephant from most any angle. And the 258gr Socom and 370gr Raptor will fill in for smaller calibers with ease, out to most sane shooting ranges. So what more could you ask for? A short, handy rifle, with all the power and versatility needed for most hunting conditions.

 

[michael458]

I had a few test rounds I needed to shoot in that 358 Ultra I have. Its a Winchester M70 (of course) and it has a 24 inch barrel. Unfortunately in that small caliber and burning 90+ gr of IMR 4350, you gotta have that 24 inches to be somewhat efficient. Think inside cubic inches of burn space.... Larger caliber, more inside cubic inches..... and so forth.....

As good as I like the big .358, I can't ever ever see toting that 24 inch musket in the field. And in my early days, I did, it was common...... But I have no doubt been spoiled now with the 18 inch guns, Even 20 inch B&Ms seem Loooooooooooong..............

 

[ldmay375]

I agree that some cartridges definitely need 24” + barrels to perform.
I have some 26” barrels, in less powder consuming and smaller bores, now those look long. I can begrudgingly deal with the 24”. I don’t think that I have ever hunted with the 26” ones.

 

[TOBY458]

I did some more testing today. I bought 8lbs of X-Terminator powder this week, which is a top performer in the 458 Win. Results as follows.

450gr CEB Solids 2211 FPS
420gr CEB Raptors 2285 FPS

Primers were nice and round, and extraction was effortless. Recoil is also not bad at all. Seems less than my 416 Rem Mag. I think I could increase this by a little bit, but I'm happy with these velocities in my short-ish barrel. Honestly, even if I were shooting a 458 Lott, I'd be happy to hunt with these ballistics. In fact, I doubt any game would know the difference if the velocities were raised another 100 fps. Also, these loads are not heavily compressed, even in the short 458 Win case. I'm glad I bought an 8lb can of this powder! I should be set for quite awhile!

 

[TOBY458]

Toby, thanks for the report!
I am a big fan of 20-22” barrel lengths on 375’s, 416’s, and 458’s.

I have a few 20”, 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger rifles with the 20” barrels, they are among my favorite rifles. I have a couple of 20” and 22” barrels on 375 H&H’s, and 22” barrels on 416 Remington, 458 Winchester and 458 Lott.
I personally have little use for barrels over 22” on 375’s through 458’s. Though 20” is as short as I care for on these. I have a couple 24” ones, that are on the list for a barrel trim.

I'm considering cutting my 416 Remington down to 22" as well. It's amazing how much difference a couple inches of the barrel can affect the handling of a rifle.

 

[ldmay375]

I have a re-barrel 375 H&H to 416 Remington, M70 New Haven Classic stainless with a 22”. I definitely like this rifle. 22” is definitely as long of a barrel that I care for on .375’s, 416’s, and 458’s, including 458 Lott.

 

[michael458]

I'm considering cutting my 416 Remington down to 22" as well. It's amazing how much difference a couple inches of the barrel can affect the handling of a rifle.

I had two of those Big Five Series 416 Remingtons, #97 and #50....... I cut down #97 to 22 inches in 2006. Unfortunately my data is not very good, several things going on at that time..... First, what data I had between the two lengths was corrupted by having two different Lots of Powder I was using at the time. I no longer had the same powder with the 22 inch gun and had started a new keg.

The biggest interruption to this was I had also just received the first 50 B&M the same month I had the 416 cut down, so guess which one got priority........ The 416 was put away the same month I received it in March of 2006 and was only fired 29 times since the barrel was cut. It was put away, and later sold in 2018 without having been fired again....... From what little information I have on it, I was very interested and had great fondness of the 340 Woodlieghs at that time...... the 24 inch version I was getting 2580 fps with the bullet, and I ran it to 2550 in the 22 inch, but settled on what I thought was a better load for some reason at 2485 fps......

Today one would be in very good shape by tossing a few inches of barrel, and make up any sort of velocity loss with "Bullet Tech"................... Nothing at all wrong with 350-375 gr .416s, and in some ways, twist rates being one, the 350-375s may even perform better...........

Another point, that I intend to play with some... Recently due to outside influences, I was reminded that I actually still have a 458 Lott that I had cut to 22 inches early in 2007. Once again, at that moment in time, I was very very preoccupied with B&M Data, pressures, and also began work on Bullet Tech. I had no time to play with that old outdated rifle, the 458 Lott..... HEH.... It was fired 9 times when I received it, more sighting in the XS Ghost Ring I put on it than anything, and it has been put away since then. I had two of these African Edition guns, #13 and #50 again.... I hunted with #50 in Tanzania in 2005, later sold it as well in 2018....... I kept #13 with its 22 inch barrel. I dragged it out from its hiding place this week, cleaned it up, actually had some surface rust on the barrel, where it had been placed in the rack in the safe...for years on top of years...... I figure I will put some of that bullet tech to work, soon as I can work out some time to spare in the next few weeks....... And see what I can do with 458 Lott........ and 22 inches of barrel.......

@TOBY458 has inspired me to "Want to Know".............

My 22 inch 458 Lott.......

 

[Forrest Halley]

And see what I can do with 458 Lott........ and 22 inches

Don't hurt yourself over there...that barrel is at least four inches longer than you're used to. I can see it already knocking pictures off the walls, the mirror off the truck, and a range table here or there...

 

[michael458]

that barrel is at least four inches longer than you're used to

Yeah, you are correct......... Probably hit myself in the damn head with it going to the range..... or drag the muzzle on the ground walking out, gets caught, throws the stock into back of my head, knocks me out cold...... or some such nonsense as that........Just have to be extra careful going to the range with it....... thank god I don't have to get it in and out of the truck........ Muskets.........

 

[michael458]

And see what I can do with 458 Lott........ and 22 inches of barrel.......

@TOBY458 has inspired me to "Want to Know".............

I think you boys can get your hacksaws out, make sure you have new blades in them, and start cutting those barrels down to workable lengths....... The days of 24 inch Muskets is OVER................Put them on the Endangered Species List..............

@TOBY458 , forgive the intrusion to your 458 Winchester thread, but this might be of some interest to you concerning your Kimber 458 Lott.......... and with your permission I will intrude just a bit with this post.................

Due to lots of other influences of late, the 458 Lott has come out of the safe......

I went back to my 458 Lott data, which is rather extensive, and covers at least 1/2 dozen different rifles. At some point many years ago, I had two rifles in a 50 gun series by the Custom Shop, the African Editions #1 through #50. I had #50 and #13. I used the #50 gun in Tanzania in 2005 for buffalo and hippo...... In 2018 I thinned the 458 Winchester, 416 Remington and 458 Lott herd down. #50 was sold, but I retained #13. I had cut the barrel on #13, shot it a few times, put it away in 2007 and it has not seen light since, until the last week. The barrel was cut to 22 inches.

My data says that in January of 2018 I ran one test with the 420 Raptor and 450 #13 Solid, both at 80/IMR 8208. The velocity in the 24 inch gun came to 2389 fps with the 450 #13 Solids.

Today, I ran that exact same load 450 #13 Solid 80/IMR 8208 in the 22 inch gun. The PACT Velocity was 2337 fps.

A total loss of 52 fps for two inches............ Believe me, I know this bullet, I could live easy with a 20 inch 458 Lott and this load.............

Now, you saw me mention PACT Velocity. In 2018 the velocity was also PACT Chrono, with screens 18 ft in front of the muzzle. I have to run 18 ft to keep muzzle blast from becoming an issue.

Today, I also ran LabRadar velocities right along with the PACT as backup............ The LabRadar velocity for this load came in at 2361 fps!!!!!!!!!! Which is reading velocity much closer to the muzzle, a difference of 24 fps. Of course, the jest of the matter is that if I ran LabRadar in 2018 then the velocity at that time would have also increased...... In reality no gain actually in the two comparisons, just useless information, but none the less noted in my data...... Also very important that I had to compare Apples to Apples, or PACT to PACT............

Now, since we are talking a lot about "Inches", I am rather proud to say this as well..... In recent tests with New Norma RUM brass in the 458 B&M, I am able to run the age old load of 76/TAC with the 450 #13 Solid in the new 19 inch gun of mine at 2329 fps at less than 59000 PSI. Read my lips, 2329 fps with a 19 inch gun........ Just saying..........Now, this is somewhat of a phenomena due to Norma Brass. The standard Remington RUM brass, which is the original parent case, the same load is at or around 2280 fps in 19-20 inches of gun and 60000 PSI. The Norma brass is giving higher velocity with the same load, and LOWER Pressures............ Odd, different, strange, but actual. I am seeing this pretty much across the board with Norma, which has become the preferred B&M brass.......

There you go. Run down to the hardware store, get yourself a good supply of hacksaw blades and start sawing.......... 24 inch barrels, Endangered Species List................. LOL

 

[HWL]

You all cut barrels and measure velocity, having no idea what pressure actually is in your handloaded cartridges.

Especially what pressure will be generated in the hot climate of Africa.

The .458 Win-Mag, compared to other proven Africa cartridges, always was and still is a marginal cartridge for the intended purpose.

My .458 has a 26 inch barrel and is easy to handle as every other comparable big gun.

And in an emergency, it will deliver every ft.lbs. the .458 has to offer.




HWL

 

[michael458]

You all cut barrels and measure velocity, having no idea what pressure actually is in your handloaded cartridges.

Especially what pressure will be generated in the hot climate of Africa.

Actually that is not correct. I know exactly the pressures we are running with most all the loads I have posted. I have been running pressures and load data here for over 20 years, with several different systems, including the Industry Standard by Oehler systems. We work on a 50 yard Indoor Shooting range, where computers, LabRadar, PACT Chronographs, and Pressure equipment is setup ready to use at a moments notice when required. I have run literally 1000s upon top of 1000s of rounds of Pressure tests in everything from 223 up to and including 577 Nitro Express..........

In addition to that, I have taken this same pressure data to Africa, multiple times, have hunted with this same pressure tested ammo in Africa at 115 degrees F.......... Many Times over again. And concerning hot climate, my friend, I live in the Coastal Plains of South Carolina, where July and August it gets so damn hot you cannot be outside, 110 degrees and humidity 80% or better, you walk outside and hit a WALL of hot wet air that you cannot get your breath, don't talk to me about Hot Climate. I have taken loaded ammo, left it in the hot sun for determined periods, and then tested it for high pressure, do not pretend to tell me about what pressures can be generated in hot climates. I have also taken ammo like this and put it in the freezer for determined periods to test in the other direction as well, especially when I was preparing for a trip to Russia for bear, and or Alaska.

You speak out of turn, outside your area of expertise, and presume too much.......

There is nothing done here that is not based in science, from load/pressure data, to blending powders together, bullet technology designed and developed here, design of various different cartridges developed here, and many special projects completed here and no where else in the world............ Many shooters go out and plink cans for fun, we do science for fun..............

 

[Forrest Halley]

@michael458 Suddenly I'm a whole lot more interested in science...

Also has it been a few weeks yet? I too want to know all about the .458 Lott.

 

[HWL]

Dear Michael.....

You are well equipped for calculating pressures, no doubt.

But today, a lot of reloader do calculating like this with programs like quick load or something like this.

So, it is not really uncommon.

What I miss on your pictures is a pressure gun with test barrels.

Calculation is fine, but science starts with exact, reproducible measurements....


HWL

 

[michael458]

What I miss on your pictures is a pressure gun with test barrels.

We use strain gages on real rifles, not Pressure Guns, in which most of that data equates to that Pressure Gun alone. While you get real information on loaded ammunition, many times that does not equate to various different rifle chambers.

Calculation is fine, but science starts with exact, reproducible measurements....

And you are again, out of your area of expertise................ When it comes to pressures and load data, If You have the same Powder as what was tested 5 years ago, and it was kept properly, and you had the same bullets, brass, and primers, then your results will be very close to the same. But you do not, in fact, results can change drastically from one KEG of powder, even with the same Lot#, to the next. This is why Hand Loaders should always work and load responsibly.

Here is what Ken Oehler tells you about Chamber Pressure Measurements;

"Chamber pressure measurement is a blend of science, black art, and common sense. There are few absolutes; the best we can expect is to reliably distinguish between the safe and the unsafe. Pressure measurements are tedious, but they must be made. Pressures will literally rise up to smite the unwary."

What you need to understand, is "there are no Absolutes" when it comes to this stuff.

Again, from Ken Oehler;

"Ideally, chamber pressure readings should be absolute. We are all spoiled and accustomed to absolute measurements of common items. If you buy a pound of powder you expect to get an amount that weighs exactly the same as a pound of butter from the grocery store or a pound of nails from the hardware store. Within close tolerances you will be right. All three of the items mentioned can be taken to a scale and weighed; you can repeat the comparison by weighing each item on a second scale. You can even "calibrate" the scales; it's simple to use a check weight.

Chamber pressure readings are more complicated than weighing a brick of butter. You can weigh and measure a loaded cartridge all you want to, you can fire dozens of loaded cartridges from the same lot in tightly specified pressure guns under controlled conditions, you can plead with the gods and IRS, but you still can't tell how much pressure the load will generate when fired in your gun.

You may read that the pressure of a certain load is 56,000 psi. You must not assume that the 56,000 psi is an absolute number. If the number is quoted for factory ammo you know that similar ammo was tested in accordance with ANSI/SAAMI standards and that there is little chance that the pressure of the ammo fired under ANSI/SAAMI specified conditions will exceed the 56,000 psi. The 56,000 psi number by itself does not tell you the pressure that will be generated when you fire the ammo in any specific test barrel or gun. The pressure generated by the round depends greatly on the gun in which it is fired and the test conditions. Individual chamber and barrel tolerances are critical. Even if you use three "identical" rifles with consecutive serial numbers or three SAAMI spec test barrels, I'll wager that you will get three different average velocities and average pressures. The pressure numbers so casually mentioned with great authority are not absolute; they are approximate and they are only relative!"


Now I doubt very seriously that this has enlightened you any at all. My point to you is that when it comes to Pressures, even with the best that science can provide, it will not be exact and even be able to reproduce it because of so many variables involved, from components to individual barrels and chambers. Here things become "Relative", and not "Absolute"............ This is why when I share my data with fellow shooters, I always try to make this understood, this was the data on this day, with my powder, my primers my components in my rifle....... mileage may vary..........

I cannot speak for what anyone else does or don't do, only myself. And BTW, I have nothing for sale, to you are anyone else, so there is no agenda other than to help fellow shooters and hunters in their endeavors in the field................Quite frankly, this is really all the time I am going to waste on this.......

 

[michael458]

Also has it been a few weeks yet? I too want to know all about the .458 Lott.

Yeah, I could not wait a few weeks either, just barely a few days... LOL.... Its posted above, you just missed it is all.........I did the range work yesterday in fact..............Unfortunately I had very little direct comparisons, but enough to give some ideas. And, I did shoot enough to know that 22 inch 458 Lott is a viable project, just as @TOBY458 s 22 inch 458 Winchester is....... And you can compound that with using Bullet Tech.

 

[TOBY458]

Yeah, I could not wait a few weeks either, just barely a few days... LOL.... Its posted above, you just missed it is all.........I did the range work yesterday in fact..............Unfortunately I had very little direct comparisons, but enough to give some ideas. And, I did shoot enough to know that 22 inch 458 Lott is a viable project, just as @TOBY458 s 22 inch 458 Winchester is....... And you can compound that with using Bullet Tech.

Mine is 21 1/4". Even less "musketty" LOL!

The next thing I'm going to need is instructions on how to build a 50 yard indoor range!