458 Win Mag for deer and bear

[Riflecrank]

cajunchefray,

"What makes Stone bullets better?
Metallurgy, shape, design etc.?"

Yes.
No failures in the field have been reported from the 404-gr/.458 SH.
Batting a thousand so far.
Not even Fordy can tell me of any failures.

I have used it at 2350 fps MV to impact a small deer at 200 yards. DRT. Impact was 1950 fps, exited, on quartering shot. Broke three ribs going in, shredded chest contents with starburst of petals and rib fragments, remnant penetrator stub exited base of neck on off-side in a straight line.

I shot a +1500 lbs water buffalo cow at 50 yards with 2500 fps MV. Similar results. One shot kill, quartering chest to neck bullet stub recovered in neck after shredding chest contents.

gunner500 took a cape buffalo bull at 33 yards, one-shot kill passed through both shoulders broadside and exited, DRT.
MV again right around 2500 fps.

Hydehunter got the second cape buffalo bull taken with this bullet, very similar result, broadside shot and bullet exited.
One-shot kills on every critter taken with it so far.

 

[Riflecrank]

That 400-gr Woodleigh stunt was based on the Woodleigh manual data for the .458 Lott.
3.425" was the COL in a 2.8" case when the bullet was crimped on factory cannelure,
and 87.0 grains of H4895 was the maximum charge for the .458 Lott.
Woodleigh got 2570 fps from their test of the .458 Lott, assuming 24" barrel.
I got 2612 fps from the .458 WIN MAG, assuming 24" barrel.

I was actually playing it safe.
I knew that the .458 WIN MAG would have lower pressure with same bullet and powder charge
as long as it could be loaded to same COL as the SAAMI/CIP .458 Lott load in contention.
Maybe even faster MV and lower pressure ?
Not as crazy as it might seem to the unrepentant Lottites.
Throat.

 

[One Day...]

I recently picked up a Interarms Mark X rifle in 458 Winchester magnum. Since I’m not planning on going to Africa for a while, I was thinking maybe I’d use it this fall for whitetails and possibly black bear hunting.
Anyone got some good recommendations for reduced loads? I’d love to use cast bullets, as I have several bullets molds in that caliber I use for 45-70.
I’ve looked online and found some loads, but wanted to know if anyone here has done the same, and how did it go?
Thanks in advance for the help

I did not read the thread, so it may have already been said, but Barnes make .458 250 gr and 300 gr TSX specifically for the .45-70.

Probably not a ton of sectional density, but who cares for whitetail and black bear

A late friend of mine used to hunt deer in PA with a similar load (.458 Win / 250 gr bullet) and reported the devastating effect of an up-close 12 gauge slug, but with 200 yards accuracy.

 

[1dirthawker]

1dirthawker,
3.28" COL with the 404-gr Stone Hammer will work fine.

If 76 grains of H4895 gets you to 2450 fps in your 23.6"/600mm nominal 24" barrel,
try same amount of either AA-2230 or AA-2460 to get to 2500 fps.
No drop tube needed for that.

Working up to Benchmark charge of 76.0 grains might be tops at 3.28" COL with "standard" brass cases:
W-W, R-P, Federal, Hornady.
I bet that will get you past 2500 fps MV,
with short COL in standard brass.
Benchmark is a faster powder than any of those above, and with its smaller extruded grains than H4895 it will take up less space in the case than H4895.

Using the larger case capacity Norma-made brass case will make your 3.280" COL
like a 3.380" COL with the smaller, "standard" brass cases.

that is good info, thanks!

although, i have to shoot up what i have, or pull bullets and load with AA powder. i will try to locate some. that is a lot of dead bears if i shoot them all

pulling bullets and replacing the powder should be easier. hopefully i can find some powder, getting it shipped up here to me is a non starter. thanks again.

 

[Riflecrank]

1dirthawker,
I am forgetting about trying to get 78.0 grains of H4895 into a standard .458 WIN MAG case
with the 404-gr SH at 3.280" COL.
I did it at 3.380" COL and bulged the case.
Not so bad at 3.480" COL.
I will go ahead and fire these two examples:

About your rifle: Why so short a magazine.
My standard Whitworth Mark X .458 WIN MAG magazine box handles 3.380" COL very well with the 404-gr Stone Hammer.
If your mag box is so short, you might consider the Sunny Hill M98/FN/Whitworth mag box that has an internal length of 3.470".
Will not fit the Whitworth rifles opened at the factory for .375 H&H, as all that action opening is toward the front.
The Sunny Hill mag box for .300 WIN MAG and .458 WIN MAG is opened to the rear only.
Drop box for extra round is available too.

The ball powders will be easier to get to 2500 fps at 3.280" COL.
Try AA-2230 and AA-2460.
And I still need to try Winchester StaBALL Match, doggone it, I keep forgetting to do that.
Might be magic.
I am now reminded, thanks.

At 3.380" to 3.480" COL with standard brass and Norma brass, 2500 to 2600 fps is easy,
with multiple powders and a 24" barrel.

My 16.9"-barreled .458 B&M+ used the 404-gr SH at 2350 fps MV,
was zeroed at 200 yards where impact velocity is 1950 fps.
404-gr SH worked great on a deer at that range, dropped it on the spot where it was standing, exactly 200 yards away.
A big bear will make that bullet do the job from your 2425 fps MV to impact anywhere inside of 200 yards,
the closer the better, of course,
and the faster the MV, hence impact velocity, the better too, of course.
No top-end velocity limits on the 404-gr SH.

 

[1dirthawker]

@Riflecrank,

thanks for the input. i will look at the mag box, but, more than 2500 fps is not needed for this homeboy! i still have to shoot it, usually over a pack not sticks!

i will look for the AA powders when i get back to town ( i am bear guarding scientists around homer AK right now)

i will try to do a report if i am able to shoot a bear with the hammer bullets, but, my last client shot very well and did not need me to intervene. that's the funny part about guiding, never know when you are going to get involved and you have about 1-2 seconds to make the decision and act. @Scott CWO knows more about it than i, but, if you make the wrong call, you get to look for a wounded bear in the brush. there are things i would rather do, that's why i got a 458 win mag!

 

[hoytcanon]

Lots of talk on this thread of max loads and peaking velocity... the OP's question was regarding the .458 WM on bears and deer... this does not require max loads or even moderately hot loads, as a matter of fact these loads are NOT desired for bears and deer. I specifically targeted 2000 fps when I worked up a load for the Barnes Original 400 SSP, that nets 3500 ft/lb energy and more than adequate trajectory. More than that just increases meat loss and wastes powder, at least IMO. Aim for a target velocity with whatever your component choices are. Definitely stay under 4000 fpe, and 3000 fpe is probably much more reasonable.

 

[Brickman301]

Ok, so I just looked at the .45 bullet molds and powders I have on hand.
Lyman 457124 “385 grain”
Lyman 457125 “500 grain”
Lyman 557122 “ 330 grain” I use this bullet made of pure lead, powder coated with 47.5 grains of 3031 in my Marlin 45-70. It’s fantastic on deer!
Lyman 457193 “405 grains” this mold I picked up at a swamp meet and needs some cleaning up. It’s rusty, hopefully I can save it!!!

All these bullets are plain based.

powders: h335, h332, 3031, H4895, varget, ikr4227, reloaded 7, and 2400.

I’ve seen some of these powders listed for the 385 and 500 grain cast bullets.
The Lyman cast book shows the 385 grain bullet at a little over 2200 fps at max load. I’ve never pushed a plain based bullet that fast. Think I’ll get leading? I will be powder coating my bullets.

Hopefully I’ll have time to cast some bullets this evening, the weather cooled down a bit!

If anyone knows of some load data with the bullets/powders listed above, I’d be grateful.

Oh,

attached is a picture of the load data I’ve seen.

 

[Brickman301]

Just to follow up on my post above, I’d like to use the Lyman 385 grain bullet if possible.
looking at the max loads, I think it will work perfectly. Fast enough to get some distance if need be and plenty of foot pounds of energy. I’m just worried about them leading at 2,200fps.
Anyone ever use this bullet at these speeds?

 

[hoytcanon]

Just to follow up on my post above, I’d like to use the Lyman 385 grain bullet if possible.
looking at the max loads, I think it will work perfectly. Fast enough to get some distance if need be and plenty of foot pounds of energy. I’m just worried about them leading at 2,200fps.
Anyone ever use this bullet at these speeds?

IMO, you don't want to push a pure lead bullet at 2200 fps, even powder coated. I have used the Lyman 405 mold for decades and usually push them around 1900... which has proven very effective on deer, bears and even moose.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

Every .458 WM I ever loaded for (including a couple Interarms) loved the Hornady 350gr bullets.

Safe hunting

 

[Brickman301]

IMO, you don't want to push a pure lead bullet at 2200 fps, even powder coated. I have used the Lyman 405 mold for decades and usually push them around 1900... which has proven very effective on deer, bears and even moose.

Thanks for the advice.
I don’t have to use pure lead. I have wheel weight lead, lineotype, pure lead and tin.
Any load data for your Lyman 405 grain load?

 

[1dirthawker]

this does not require max loads or even moderately hot loads, as a matter of fact these loads are NOT desired for bears and deer.

black bear, you are correct. brown bear, more is better!

 

[Riflecrank]

Yes the deer and bear bullets for the .458 WIN MAG start at 250 grains and go to 750 grains for kicks.
Monometal, jacketed, cast lead. 1300 fps to 3000 fps pretty well covers it.
Low end for cast bullets of course: 1300 fps to 2200 fps if bullets are homemade correctly.

Brickman301,
Your Lyman 457125 500-grainer is known as the "Government" bullet used for .45-70 Gov't. BPCR shoots. Duplicates original military loads too.
It is famed for accuracy amongst BPCR competitors in just about all rifles used for that, with soft alloy and grease in the grooves.

If you cast it in Linotype it comes out of that mould at 486 grains and .461" diameter.
Powder coat paint it and push it through a .460" sizer and it gains one grain and stays at 0.461".
487-gr/.461" plain base 600-yard gong ringer with .458 WIN MAG.
I think that is the bullet that got me started using .461" diameter in all my .458 WIN MAG cast bullet shooting.

Use the 3.375" COL in a 3.4" mag box or load it one step shorter for 3.250" COL.
Here is the 3.4" mag box that rang steel at 600 yards with that bullet.
It is a Pre-'64 M70 WIN .30-06 action with a CZ 550 Magnum .458 WIN MAG barrel fitted to it,
a chimera known as a WINCZeckster, parts is parts:

The initial 5-shot group at 50 yards and Oehler 35P printout: 36.0 grains of AA-5744, no filler, F-215 primer, Hornady case, 3.375" COL.

50 rounds loaded up:

First two 3-shot, 100-yard groups:

When satisfied with scope:

 

[Riflecrank]

black bear, you are correct. brown bear, more is better!

And there are also some 800-pound black bears snacking all winter in North Carolina.
And I was in on a 600-pound black bear kill once upon a time in Prince William Sound.

 

[Riflecrank]

Just to annoy, here is what happens if you shoot an excellent, hardcast bullet at well over 2200 fps:

A 3-shot group at even faster velocity:

Vertical stringing seems to happen to a bullet that makes a 100-yard 3-shot clover leaf when it is going only 2200 fps.
Of course the lead bullet impacting at too high a velocity will not maintain structural integrity sufficient to be a reliable killer.

Here is the most versatile cast bullet I would use more than any other for deer and bear and such as just gong ringing, designed for .458 SOCOM, swell in a .458 WIN MAG, from Accurate Molds,
same bullet as "Little Blue" for Light Rifle Express load at 2170 fps, previously recommended:

Bullet weight depends on alloy used,
407-grains in BHN25 (92/5/2/1) with PC paint and GC.

 

[hoytcanon]

black bear, you are correct. brown bear, more is better!

I guided for grizzlies in BC, I know what it takes to put one down... but "hunting" and "stopping" are two very different things. I doubt the OP was referring to grizzlies when he said "bears."

 

[hoytcanon]

And there are also some 800-pound black bears snacking all winter in North Carolina.
And I was in on a 600-pound black bear kill once upon a time in Prince William Sound.

I killed one BB over 600, that is an extremely rare bear, I have killed many in the 450 - 550 range, they do not require any more than a 250 or 300 pound bear to put down cleanly... as always placing the bullet properly and using a stout bullet is paramount. But since this thread is specifically about the .458 WM, I am pretty confident in the outcome.

 

[Riflecrank]

Here is a little more data with the Lyman 457125 "Government" bullet:

34.0 to 36.0 grains of AA-5744, no filler.
Low recoil from low powder charges.
Note the 5-shot standard deviation of 1 fps for the 34.0-grain charge and 5-yard velocity of 1344 fps by Oehler 35P, corrected to MV = 1351 fps.
That would plow right through a deer from any angle even if it is a Linotype Round Nose.

 

[Riflecrank]

If cast bullets are more trouble than fun,
try the Sierra 300-gr/.458 ProHunter jacketed hollow point.
Very soft bullet that needs to be kept down to low velocity.
It vaporizes on muzzle exit at about 2800 fps from a .458 WIN MAG.
Blue smoke.
Been there, done that, and I got no T-shirt for it.
Use monometals in the 250-gr to 300-gr range for any +2200 fps "light bullet" loads.