458 Flat Nosed Solids For Elephant

[michael458]

I actually left out the 416 part of the question. I meant to say 416 400gr Safari Solid.

I believe they are both 1:14 twist.

Completely different story, Yes, I think both 416 and 458s are 1:14 twists, I think?..............

The 400s will be stable in flight, that is not an issue, flight/accuracy, that sort of thing. But once Terminal Penetration begins with a SOLID, then 1:14 is NOT as stable as 1:12. We tested this in 416 B&Ms... one with 1:14 Twist and the other with 1:12 twist. During Terminals the 1:12 was dead straight for the entire depth of penetration. As shown here;

Now TAKE NOTE...... The test above was done at 2260-2280 fps. We know that VELOCITY is a Factor of Solid Penetration, and here is how Velocity can work for you, even with a twist that is not optimal.

Now, even at lower velocity of 2260 fps, and veering off course at 65 and 68 inches, showing instability, they were 100% stable for 90% or better of total penetration, and being more than enough to accomplish the mission required.

However, in 416 B&M we use the 350 gr CEB Solids and they get 64-66 inches of dead straight penetration at 2350-2450 fps.........

For 416 caliber and 400 CEB or any other properly designed solid with meplat 65% or more of caliber, I would not use anything slower than 1:14 twist rates. If so, then I would drop weight to 350-370 grains........

 

[michael458]

My manual is #4. Which I believe is the first to show the banded solids, but I may be mistaken.

Yeah, I don't know, since I don't much keep up with manuals........

Looking at those loads, I tested X-Terminator to 76/X-Term for 2346 fps at 60000 PSI, which I stopped at that point.

I did not have good results from TAC, I tested to 78/TAC for 2324 fps at 63500 PSI, which I consider over Max working pressure. In 458 Winchester I like to top out at 60000-61000 PSI for that Max working pressure.

Different story in 458 B&M as TAC is the #1 Powder for the heavier bullets, I use 76/TAC in 458 B&M and get 2250 in 18 inch guns and 2315 in 20 inch guns.........


H-4198 and RL 7 are too fast for the heavier bullets and hit Max Working Pressures long before you optimize velocities. These two however are THE POWDERs when you drop weights to 400 or less....I run the 250 Socom Raptors in 458 Winchester at nearly 3000 fps...... and also in the shorter B&Ms, and use H-4198 for that mission...

But with the 450s you need those slower powders.......H-4895, X-Term, TAC, IMR 8208, and AA 2230 is great.........

 

[TOBY458]

Yeah, I don't know, since I don't much keep up with manuals........

Looking at those loads, I tested X-Terminator to 76/X-Term for 2346 fps at 60000 PSI, which I stopped at that point.

I did not have good results from TAC, I tested to 78/TAC for 2324 fps at 63500 PSI, which I consider over Max working pressure. In 458 Winchester I like to top out at 60000-61000 PSI for that Max working pressure.

Different story in 458 B&M as TAC is the #1 Powder for the heavier bullets, I use 76/TAC in 458 B&M and get 2250 in 18 inch guns and 2315 in 20 inch guns.........


H-4198 and RL 7 are too fast for the heavier bullets and hit Max Working Pressures long before you optimize velocities. These two however are THE POWDERs when you drop weights to 400 or less....I run the 250 Socom Raptors in 458 Winchester at nearly 3000 fps...... and also in the shorter B&Ms, and use H-4198 for that mission...

But with the 450s you need those slower powders.......H-4895, X-Term, TAC, IMR 8208, and AA 2230 is great.........

Thanks again for so much info! Hopefully I can get some loaded up soon and try them out over a chronograph.

 

[SRvet]

@michael458 Many thanks for so much information in this thread. Can I ask if the 450 grain 458 solid is suitable for loading to a longer COAL than usual for the .458 Win Mag to try to get closer to .458 Lott ballistics? I believe I have heard this referred to as the .458 +P

 

[michael458]

@michael458 Many thanks for so much information in this thread. Can I ask if the 450 grain 458 solid is suitable for loading to a longer COAL than usual for the .458 Win Mag to try to get closer to .458 Lott ballistics? I believe I have heard this referred to as the .458 +P

Short answer is yes, you can seat two bands out for more case capacity. I have only touched this area of study with 458 Winchester and do not have conclusive results. I have a very good friend that has studied this extensively and has produced incredible results achieving and exceeding 458 Lott results with 458 Winchester by doing this. In a recent study here with a 458 Winchester of mine that I cut down to 20 inches we only touched on this subject in a couple of tests.

An example of this we were working with a particular 400 gr bullet in 458 Winchester. Our max load that also fit in and worked through the magazine with this bullet hit 2376 fps at 3.280" 61400 PSI. Increasing COL to 3.380" and adding two gr of powder brought pressures down, adding the two gr kept us even at 2380 fps at 58600 PSI. When one increases case capacity you lower pressures with the same or close to the same load, lowering pressures lowers velocity as well. The next step was to increase COL to 3.480 inches and increase powder charge by 4 grs over what we started with. This brought the pressures back up to 61900 PSI and velocity to 2441 fps. This gave us a real gain of 65 fps and near equal the same pressure, but at a cost of 4 gr of powder. I consider this a viable and conclusive test.

We went one step further increasing COL to 3.580" and now 6 gr powder over what we started with, but at this point we only got an increase of velocity to 2476 fps and over max working pressure of 66100 PSI.

Now there were other bullets, and other powders that conclusive results could not be obtained.

62500 PSI is very loosely considered 458 Winchester +P in our circles. Of course, this is "In our Circles" and not anything official. This sort of work is considered outside the Norm. My friend is an expert in this area and has achieved incredible results. But, that said, there are many things to consider, and many of these things "You Should NOT Attempt at Home"................

 

[SRvet]

Short answer is yes, you can seat two bands out for more case capacity. I have only touched this area of study with 458 Winchester and do not have conclusive results. I have a very good friend that has studied this extensively and has produced incredible results achieving and exceeding 458 Lott results with 458 Winchester by doing this. In a recent study here with a 458 Winchester of mine that I cut down to 20 inches we only touched on this subject in a couple of tests.

An example of this we were working with a particular 400 gr bullet in 458 Winchester. Our max load that also fit in and worked through the magazine with this bullet hit 2376 fps at 3.280" 61400 PSI. Increasing COL to 3.380" and adding two gr of powder brought pressures down, adding the two gr kept us even at 2380 fps at 58600 PSI. When one increases case capacity you lower pressures with the same or close to the same load, lowering pressures lowers velocity as well. The next step was to increase COL to 3.480 inches and increase powder charge by 4 grs over what we started with. This brought the pressures back up to 61900 PSI and velocity to 2441 fps. This gave us a real gain of 65 fps and near equal the same pressure, but at a cost of 4 gr of powder. I consider this a viable and conclusive test.

We went one step further increasing COL to 3.580" and now 6 gr powder over what we started with, but at this point we only got an increase of velocity to 2476 fps and over max working pressure of 66100 PSI.

Now there were other bullets, and other powders that conclusive results could not be obtained.

62500 PSI is very loosely considered 458 Winchester +P in our circles. Of course, this is "In our Circles" and not anything official. This sort of work is considered outside the Norm. My friend is an expert in this area and has achieved incredible results. But, that said, there are many things to consider, and many of these things "You Should NOT Attempt at Home"................

View attachment 522598

Really helpful
, thanks so much !

 

[michael458]

Really helpful
, thanks so much !

No thanks needed........

One very very important Point To Ponder

In a 24 inch gun 458 Winchester can easy run the 450 #13 Solids, and most other 450 weight bullets at 2300 fps at magazine COL. A 20 inch gun can easy run the 450s to 2250 fps at magazine COL.
From experience both in the lab and in the field on buffalo, elephant and hippo, even 2150 fps is more than enough with this bullet for any mission you ask of it.......... at 2250-2300 fps in 458 Winchester you do not need, nor require anything else period! You do not need 458 Lott. You do not need to attempt to duplicate it either. Your plain old standard 458 Winchester with this bullet will do anything on the planet you ask of it.

Naturally being shooters we love to know what is around the corner, that we cannot see. No one knows this better than I. In reality however, it is not always needed. It is not always the rifle, the cartridge and certainly not always the velocity..........Enhancement of any cartridge is found in Bullet Technology. It is all about the Bullet and its design. Use the proper design to enhance your cartridge, and your Success.

 

[Nhoro]

@michael458 Many thanks for so much information in this thread. Can I ask if the 450 grain 458 solid is suitable for loading to a longer COAL than usual for the .458 Win Mag to try to get closer to .458 Lott ballistics? I believe I have heard this referred to as the .458 +P

I have some reloads of peregrine copper mono solids- 450 gr at a chrongraphed 2250fps. These were still withing 458 win mag specs so the cartridge overall length was still in spec. In addition, the 450 gr bullet has near identical sectional density to a 375 h&h / 300 gr solid. So in my opinion, it is the best option for the win mag. That load has taken big elephant bulls comfortably. North Forks etc are very similar in design.

 

[michael458]

So in my opinion, it is the best option for the win mag.

This has been my opinion for many years, even long before our modern higher tech solids.........

he 450 gr bullet has near identical sectional density to a 375 h&h / 300 gr solid.

Sectional Density is not a good comparison in the case of Solid Terminal Penetration. It is dead last in the Factors of Solid Penetration, with 7 other factors in front of SD in importance. SD is ONLY a factor if the other 7 are equal.

Solid Terminal Penetration has changed tremendously in the last 15 years........ Conventional thinking before Modern Bullet Technology is no longer a cold hard fact....... and slowly becoming completely outdated and replaced. I know, I have watched it and been part of it. In the early days of these developments what I did was Blasphemy at best.......witchcraft and cursed by those who clung to the past...... I have heard it all, and now, today, these bullets are becoming the Standard, the benchmark by which all else is compared. Bullets such as North Forks, Cutting Edge #13s, Peregrines and many others are taking over the hunting fields of today, as well they should. I am retired now from hunting, but as Hunters, we have never ever in history had the incredible and viable choices we have today. Hunters are blessed with incredible bullets capable of making lesser cartridges more than capable of doing bigger jobs with ease. And, serious cartridges being far more capable and reliable than ever before. There is no down side to proper Bullet Design, and Proper Bullet Tech. I am actually fairly proud to see that many of the hunters on this site recognize these benefits..... Well done to all.....You are getting smarter...... LOL

 

[TOBY458]

This has been my opinion for many years, even long before our modern higher tech solids.........


Sectional Density is not a good comparison in the case of Solid Terminal Penetration. It is dead last in the Factors of Solid Penetration, with 7 other factors in front of SD in importance. SD is ONLY a factor if the other 7 are equal.

Solid Terminal Penetration has changed tremendously in the last 15 years........ Conventional thinking before Modern Bullet Technology is no longer a cold hard fact....... and slowly becoming completely outdated and replaced. I know, I have watched it and been part of it. In the early days of these developments what I did was Blasphemy at best.......witchcraft and cursed by those who clung to the past...... I have heard it all, and now, today, these bullets are becoming the Standard, the benchmark by which all else is compared. Bullets such as North Forks, Cutting Edge #13s, Peregrines and many others are taking over the hunting fields of today, as well they should. I am retired now from hunting, but as Hunters, we have never ever in history had the incredible and viable choices we have today. Hunters are blessed with incredible bullets capable of making lesser cartridges more than capable of doing bigger jobs with ease. And, serious cartridges being far more capable and reliable than ever before. There is no down side to proper Bullet Design, and Proper Bullet Tech. I am actually fairly proud to see that many of the hunters on this site recognize these benefits..... Well done to all.....You are getting smarter...... LOL

They've gone and made bullets so good now that even a 375 will kill a good sized warf rat. Lol!

 

[michael458]

They've gone and made bullets so good now that even a 375 will kill a good sized warf rat. Lol!

Surely no sentient intelligent being could possibly choose calibers so poorly..... I can't fathom such behavior from educated, intelligent beings. Perhaps it is akin to going with ancient tools, like bows and arrows, or something such.

I am sure that should one endeavor in such silliness that they would be intelligent enough to have a good man on hand, by ones side, with a proper caliber of .458...... this way when (not if) there is a failure with the inferior caliber, the .458 can pick up and sort the issue out.

Wharf Rats are not to be toyed with.......

With such a turd of a caliber as 375, I am not even sure that SUPER Bullets can be of any consequence.........

HEH...............

 

[SRvet]

As a direct result of this thread I think I am probably sorted for the next few years of elephant and buffalo hunting (though I hope to need more eventually !!)
Three boxes of the 420 grain safari Raptor and three boxes of 450 grain Safari solids that will be loaded in the .458 Win Mag and .458 Lott. Particular thanks to @michael458 for sharing his hard earned knowledge so freely .

 

[michael458]

Particular thanks to @michael458 for sharing his hard earned knowledge so freely

No thanks needed, nor required, my pleasure to help out if I can.............

This combination in .458 caliber has proven itself over and over again, with hippo, elephant and buffalo, not just my hands, but in the hands of many others.........

Last year my friend and Accountant went for buffalo, he actually used one of my first 20 inch 458 B&M rifles, and of course the 420 Raptor/450 Solid combination. In this gun the 420 ran at around 2350 and the 450 at 2315........ first shot with the 420 hit home, exited broadside, as the bull turned away he was hit with the solid in the rear, which exited the front........ end of story.

Just last week I finished loading the same combination for his now new 458 Lott (Winchester M70 African Edition done by the Custom shop when it was up and running)...... They made 50 of these African Edition guns, very nice guns, and put together very well. I had two myself, #50 and #13, I used #50 in Tanzania in 2005 with extreme success, then like something stupid sold it. I had the barrel shortened to 22 inches on #13, added NECG Front barrel band and rear adjustable, and had SSK do a high polish blue on it, really Nice gun. Well my friend found #18 and got it. Shortly after getting it ready for him, he actually found the #17 gun and I insisted that he get it too... LOL.... He now has #17 and #18....... very excellent. He is taking #18 in a couple of weeks for two buffalo, and I sent him on his was this past weekend with 35 rounds of 450 Solids and 15 rounds of 420 Raptors, both at 2375 fps which is more than enough to do anything you want to do. We can run a little more in the 458 Lott, but 2375 fps he shoots it very well and don't beat him up too bad.

Here is a photo before I got everything loaded......

There are those that declare that solids are just no longer required in modern buffalo hunting with the extreme premium expanding bullets we have today......... I do not accept that opinion, and figure that is an opinion of someone with little experience in the field, and more experience reading a magazine. In fact, I am of the complete opposite opinion and believe the SOLID to be the very most important component of any hunt for Dangerous game, thin or thick skinned...... PERIOD.

Things go wrong in the field. Things that might be out of your control. That properly designed solid, in this case the 450 #13 CEB Safari Solid, just might get you out of a pickle and save the day.

Even with common practice, after that first shot is fired with your Trauma Inflicting bullet, Raptor, Swift, North Fork or what have you, you follow up with solids to pay the insurance. If your animal is still on his feet, more than likely he is not presenting the perfect shot on #2 or #3 or thereafter. It may be running through thick brush, your shot may and most likely will be the South End of a North Bound Freight train, and you will need extreme straight line penetration and bone busting ability to end the dance you just started.

And in the case of BUFFALO, South End of a North Bound Buff, there is NO PREMIUM that you can count on to go from the rear to the front........ Not even the mighty Raptor...... which will nearly double the penetration depth of most Premium expanding..........

Back many years ago I was working with an 18 inch 458 B&M, at the time I was shooting a 420 Raptor at 2250 fps and 450 Solids at 2200 fps....... At about 30 yards or so I shot a nice cow buffalo dead frontal heart shot. The animal turned and dropped, it did not go anywhere. I was determined to find that bullet. Back at the shed we spent a very long time looking and sifting through stomach contents, and finally found the bullet just as it exited the stomach. Meaning it passed through all the stomach contents and was found just beyond........... I was so amazed at this, I took a photo of what that bullet had to pass through........... There is NO PREMIUM SOFT POINT EXPANDING BULLET that will make it all the way through these stomach contents........ take a look............

And this is what that 420 Raptor did to the heart...........

Oh for sure, the Solids are the most important component in your success in the field...............

I have been backing up with Solids since 2005 on everything, regardless of Dangerous Game or just antelope or other species, for that Just in Case moment that everything is not as perfect as you hope for. And in many cases it saved the day......... And most days it made me feel far more confident that I could handle most any situation with Solids backing me up.

Well done @SRvet and good luck in all your endeavors...........

 

[fourfive8]

@michael458 Agreed. Points well made. I still do not understand the reasoning why some insist, including some PHs, on loading the magazine with only soft, expanding ammo for buffalo. Sure, many or maybe most of the time that will get the job done, but!..... Even with a good first hit with a soft, buffalo tend to take off and don't offer much of a choice of shots at best angles for the needed follow up shots 2, 3, 4 or more. The only bullet that has any hope of penetrating hip bones or a 55 gal drum of wet fodder to get to the vitals is a properly designed FP monolithic. Maybe some PHs have little or no confidence in their average hunter, so they may simply take the opinion and tell their client hunters, "load up with softs only (because that is all you know), get a shot in best you can and let me, the real professional, do the clean up shooting." Some PHs have that mindset and I notice many hunters also have fallen into that thinking or go along with it.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Excellent read, What about Woodleigh's Hydro's?
pros & cons, if anyone cares to share their thoughts
Thank you.

 

[michael458]

Woodleigh Hydro is an example of Limited Penetration solids, very good hitting up front ability, very similar to performance of the North Fork CPS. It has a large meplat surface area which limits its depth of penetration, but increases its up front hitting ability. Not as much tissue destruction as a Raptor or Conventional premium, and not as deep diving as a solid designed for such. In between both.

Not considered a deep diving solid such as the CEB #13 or the North Fork Solids...........

 

[SAFARIKIDD]

That would be, and has been my First Choice on such endeavors, and that is regardless of 458 caliber Cartridge, Lott, Winchester, B&M, does not matter, the 450 #13 Solid (as we used to refer to it) is #1. The other #1 Choice is the Solid that John and I worked on from North Fork, which I still have a small supply of, and that likely none of you can obtain unfortunately. It is nearly identical to the #13 Cutting Edge bullet, slightly different angle on the nose.

With properly designed bullets, in .458 caliber, regardless of the case/cartridge capacity, you do not and will never need more than a 450 gr bullet. End of story........

View attachment 401753

The last elephant I took was hit with one of these 450 Solids broadside heart shot. I was crouched down on my knees at 12 yards almost squeezing trigger for a frontal brain shot, wind shifted and the bull took off from left to right, I shifted aim to broadside heart shot, and only chance for one shot and the elephant disappeared into the brush. Followup was less than 25 yards and the bull was down for the count...... The 450 #13 Cutting Edge was doing just over 2200 fps in a 18 inch Winchester M70 458 B&M. The bullet passed completely through the broadside shot and still running around in Zimbabwe somewhere I imagine, absolutely 100% Perfect Performance.

View attachment 401754View attachment 401756

We stumbled upon this big bull hippo taking a nap about 75 yards off the lake shore. We were sneaking around looking for a croc, and now between this bull and the lake. At 15 yards I hit him in the brain with a 250 Socom from that same 18 inch 458 B&M, the 250 was moving at 2900 fps, there was no time to change out loads, the bull went down immediately, with brain matter squirting out both ears for over 6 ft in both directions. Before I knew that however, I followed up with a 450 Solid on the point of the shoulder as an insurance shot, just in case, I believe in paying up the insurance. The bullet was later recovered in the far side rear hindquarters of the animal, estimated 6 feet of travel after busting the point of the shoulder to pieces.

View attachment 401755View attachment 401751

I never got to hunt this bullet, but I have zero doubts of its abilities...........This is the bullet that John from North Fork and I worked on before North Fork was moved........... Take special note of the band configuration............

View attachment 401752

Now I know for a fact what Bullets I would choose, what you choose is up to you...........

As a side note, for buffalo the Matching Raptor for the 450 Solid is the 420 Safari Raptor....... It handles buffalo quite well, and has the same exact POI as the solid at 50 yards, since they are the same bullet, the only difference is the Raptor has the Hollow Cavity making it 420 grains. Don't get caught up in penetration of lighter Raptors, this bullet will still penetrate over 4 feet of buffalo, after destroying everything in its path............I have shot many a buffalo with this combination, the only ones I have ever recovered was from frontal shots, I don't ever remember recovering a 450 Solid.

Love the stories Mike! Hope your doing well pal! "Brain matter squirting out his ears for 6 ft"...man thats Awesome!!
I got 2 land Hippos and what a hoot! At the time a mere .505 Gibbs but no issues and one Solid came out the other side and a mud/water geyser erupted as he raced for the river and slid to a stop at the edge! ...With those loads all one need is a mild lil 458 of sorts! Makes me feel a tad over gunned with my 600s! lol
I will we had some T-Rex around still! lol
What would you recommend for the 600 Overkill in light fast destructive explosive ? Check out THOR below...16" at 8.75pds w/rear peep (should have Fluted it for 8.25!) With a Big Zeiss coming it may go 10.5ish
*You and I both have a affection for light lil cannons!

 

[Flewis]

Kid, please stop showing pictures of your 600s. I can’t take it.

 

[IvW]

@michael458 Agreed. Points well made. I still do not understand the reasoning why some insist, including some PHs, on loading the magazine with only soft, expanding ammo for buffalo. Sure, many or maybe most of the time that will get the job done, but!..... Even with a good first hit with a soft, buffalo tend to take off and don't offer much of a choice of shots at best angles for the needed follow up shots 2, 3, 4 or more. The only bullet that has any hope of penetrating hip bones or a 55 gal drum of wet fodder to get to the vitals is a properly designed FP monolithic. Maybe some PHs have little or no confidence in their average hunter, so they may simply take the opinion and tell their client hunters, "load up with softs only (because that is all you know), get a shot in best you can and let me, the real professional, do the clean up shooting." Some PHs have that mindset and I notice many hunters also have fallen into that thinking or go along with it.

A good first shot with a premium grade expanding bullet is all that is needed for buffalo....in the right caliber....for me the .400 are ideal for buffalo although 375 kills most....

Solids on buffalo come from times when expanding bullets where called softs and used mainly for pg and cats....and unfortuanately that falicy has gotten stuck with some....

Now you have a visiting hunter hunting buffalo....if he or she cannot place the first shot where it is supposed to go where are they going to place the offhand running shot to reach the vitals?? In the a..hole? Above the nutsack? Between the legs??

Nope best option is to aim at and shoot at what you can see which in the case of a departing buffalo is either again shoulder area if broadside or either of the hip bones or the spine just above the root of the tail....any one of the last 2 will anchor a buffalo....
If the bullets you are using are not capable of smashing the hip bones or spine you need to find ones that can.

Letting fly with solids 2 3 4 or more shots is very irresponsible and the chances of passthrough is just too great.....

Round nose solids are the worst, meplat solids are better but both of them make a lot less damage than a premium expanding bullet. A proper expanding bullet has controlled expansion and expands to 2x or 2 1/2 times caliber and stais together.....

Right caliber and right bullet you only need premium expanding bullets and proper first shot placement....nothing more nothing less....

For backup I use a 500 Jeff with 570gr Rhino expanders....one shot is all it has ever taken me to sort out hairy situations everytime.

Solids are for elephant, rhino and sometimes hippo on land...

That is what has always worked for me on buffalo and that is what I recommend.

 

[michael458]

Solids on buffalo come from times when expanding bullets where called softs and used mainly for pg and cats....and unfortuanately that falicy has gotten stuck with some....

Obviously not a shooter, but one that would shoot and lets see what happens. "Falicy?" Oh, you meant Fallacy. I would believe myself that "Expanding Bullets are all you need for buffalo", might in and of itself be a new modern day "fallacy" itself. You see, I never shoot and hope, wait to see what happens, you solve the problem, which means you shoot until you cannot shoot anymore, or you don't have a shot, or you are out of ammo, or your problem is solved, and then even solved, you shoot one more time. Those second shots are not going to be like the first shot, or perfect. You will need straight and deep penetration after #1........... In fact, this works so good I not only use this for buffalo, but everything else as well........

Letting fly with solids 2 3 4 or more shots is very irresponsible and the chances of passthrough is just too great.....

Well, I guess some people just have no self control....................

Round nose solids are the worst,

The one thing we can agree upon.


There are many good reasons to have and use a Solid, and no good reasons not to......... Only opinions..........