450 Rigby vs 416 Rigby

[IvW]

Easy one, 450 Rigby!

 

[TOBY458]

Guns are like tools to me. If you have a need for a particular tool, you get it. I work on commercial boilers and have several tools that you would not find in a typical tool box. Likewise, I read all these posts of people who hunt much more than I do and as a result have many more gun to fill their particular needs. And that doesn't even include the PH's who job it is to keep a client safe, and the tools in their toolbox.

So the question really is...do you NEED a new tool for your toolbox, or do you just want one. This is the question that the Department of Finance would be asking me.

It hasn't been about need in years! It's all just a want once you have only a few rifles in a few calibers. The rest is gravy!

 

[BeeMaa]

It hasn't been about need in years! It's all just a want once you have only a few rifles in a few calibers. The rest is gravy!

The Dept of Finance will be curbing the gravy on my plate and I will make due with the tools I have for now. And to tell you the truth she has been might generous to my firearms addiction.

If you have the gravy, then why is this even a discussion? Want it/need it, who cares? If you have the $$$, get it.

 

[TOBY458]

The Dept of Finance will be curbing the gravy on my plate and I will make due with the tools I have for now. And to tell you the truth she has been might generous to my firearms addiction.

If you have the gravy, then why is this even a discussion? Want it/need it, who cares? If you have the $$$, get it.

I'm sure you have ample tools for the job! I would probably be better off putting the money toward a Kudu or Eland on my upcoming hunt, instead of buying another rifle, but I have a full blown addiction to big bore rifles. I need rehab!

 

[8x68]

I have both calibres in a CZ 550. They both shoot lest than an inch from the bench (I used a Leadsled. I forgot it one day and fired 10 rounds from the 450 Rigby from the bench. You don't want to fire 10 rounds from the bench with a 450 Rigby without using something to reduce the pounding your shoulder wont thank you for). Personally I prefer the 450 Rigby. The frontal area of a 458 cal bullet to me is more reassuring than that of a 416 cal when what you want to shoot can turn you into excrement! The 416 is more than capable but just personal preference on my part.
For practice is was using the Hornady 458cal 350gr FP.

 

[BeeMaa]

I'm sure you have ample tools for the job! I would probably be better off putting the money toward a Kudu or Eland on my upcoming hunt, instead of buying another rifle, but I have a full blown addiction to big bore rifles. I need rehab!

Ample tools for the job, I think I've heard that once before...a lady of the night I believe.

But seriously, who wants to be ample when overwhelming is what we are going for. Hence the addiction.
I know of where you speak. Have a few members here who are my "sponsors" to assist me with my addiction. Also know as translators to the Dept of Finance to explain my...NEEDS!

Good luck with yours. IMO - 450 Rigby.

Cheers.

 

[One Day...]

Let us inject some data (and perception) in the discussion...

Want vs. need? Age old discussion. I do not have anything to say that has not been said a million times. I have an opinion, of course, but so does everyone else, and mine is not more relevant (or less) than any other, because they are just that: opinions... I will not be very useful if I say: do what you want within what you can afford, because you already know that, and this is not the feedback you are probably interested in. Let me just say that I understand, I share, and I actually envy, the delicious angst of your predicament.

Maybe more usefully, let me attempt to bring data to the discussion. Based on http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_recoil.htm, a .416 Rem. Mag. shooting 400 gr. at 2400 fps and weighing 10.0 lbs will produce 52.9 ft/lb of free recoil energy. A 416 Rigby shooting 400 gr. at 2400 fps and weighing 10.0 lbs will produce 58.1 ft/lb of free recoil energy. This is because the Rigby operates at lower pressure than the Rem and therefore needs about 20% more powder to deliver the same velocity. Recoil wise, you will likely not feel a 10% difference. The table does not include the .450 Rigby, but if we use the .458 Lott as a viable comparison, the .458 Lott pushing a 500 gr. bullet at 2300 fps in a 10.0 lbs. rifle will produce 70.4 ft/lb of free recoil energy. You can play with the data for your own needs using the rough following guidelines: increasing/decreasing gun weight by 10% increases or decreases recoil by 10%; increasing/decreasing bullet weight by 10% increases or decreases recoil by 20%; increasing/decreasing bullet speed by 10% increases or decreases recoil by 20%; and any combination of the above.

I am familiar with the issues of perceived recoil vs. measured recoil; stock design influence on perceived recoil; rifle weight negative when hauling it vs. positive when shooting it etc. and I am not engaging in these debates because this is likely not what you seek. Again, you already know all that. So, just sharing my experience, which I think is what you seek, I will say that I own a CZ 550 in .416 Rigby scoped with a low power Schmidt & Bender variable in Alaskan rings. It weighs exactly 10 lbs 10 ounces unloaded and rewards me with 56 ft/lb of recoil when I pull the trigger. I also own a Mauser 66 (the telescopic action that pioneered the concept made mainstream by Blaser) in .458 Lott with a Docter III sight (see my post re. Reflex Sights on Dangerous Game Rifles). It weighs exactly 9 lbs. even, and rewards me with 78 ft/lb of recoil when I pull the trigger. I can witness that there is definitely a substantial felt recoil difference between the two when I shoot them one after the other. The subjective experience bears the objective math that says that there is a 39% increase in recoil ((78-56)/56 x 100=39%)

As you would expect, neither are comfortable to shoot from the traditional "American" way of shooting benchrest, i.e. leaning heavily into the gun. This being stated, shooting the "British" way standing behind a tall bench, or shooting the "European" way sitting on a low stool from a high table bench - both techniques resulting in the same effect of having a straight back and allowing the body to roll back with the recoil - is a completely different experience. Using the thickest recoil shoulder pad available (I use the PAST Super Mag Plus Recoil Pad Shield) makes yet another level of difference. Finally, once sighted, using either gun in some fun walking drills with buff cardboard silhouettes completely erases the pain. The recoil is still here but not an issue, just as happens when hunting. Two things though, if you get a .450 Rigby/.458 Lott make sure you have plenty of eye relief if you shoot a scope on these snap shots, but you know that too; and if you are starting to age (50+) keep an eye on retina detachment (pun fully intended) under recoil.

All of that to say: the .450 will kick noticeably more; objective fact. You can deal with it at the bench if you have a stance that allows you to roll with it; experimental fact. You will never feel it in action; generally accepted perception.

Whichever way you go, enjoy the new gun.

 

[One Day...]

PS: love the Sako too. Had a lovely .375 H&H built by Dumoulin in Belgium on a Sako 75 action in the days (40 years ago...) when true magnum length Mauser-style actions were scarce (and did not want to butcher and weaken a standard length Mauser to force fit a .375 H&H in it). Replaced it eventually with a Brno ZKK 602 actioned .375 H&H. Replaced it with a CZ 550 actioned .416 Rigby. Don't own a .375 anymore. Found happiness with .340 wby 250 gr / .416 Rigby 400 gr / .458 Lott 500 gr (and occasionally .300 wby 150 gr for the very light stuff).

 

[TOBY458]

Let us inject some data (and perception) in the discussion...

Want vs. need? Age old discussion. I do not have anything to say that has not been said a million times. I have an opinion, of course, but so does everyone else, and mine is not more relevant (or less) than any other, because they are just that: opinions... I will not be very useful if I say: do what you want within what you can afford, because you already know that, and this is not the feedback you are probably interested in. Let me just say that I understand, I share, and I actually envy, the delicious angst of your predicament.

Maybe more usefully, let me attempt to bring data to the discussion. Based on http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_recoil.htm, a .416 Rem. Mag. shooting 400 gr. at 2400 fps and weighing 10.0 lbs will produce 52.9 ft/lb of free recoil energy. A 416 Rigby shooting 400 gr. at 2400 fps and weighing 10.0 lbs will produce 58.1 ft/lb of free recoil energy. This is because the Rigby operates at lower pressure than the Rem and therefore needs about 20% more powder to deliver the same velocity. Recoil wise, you will likely not feel a 10% difference. The table does not include the .450 Rigby, but if we use the .458 Lott as a viable comparison, the .458 Lott pushing a 500 gr. bullet at 2300 fps in a 10.0 lbs. rifle will produce 70.4 ft/lb of free recoil energy. You can play with the data for your own needs using the rough following guidelines: increasing/decreasing gun weight by 10% increases or decreases recoil by 10%; increasing/decreasing bullet weight by 10% increases or decreases recoil by 20%; increasing/decreasing bullet speed by 10% increases or decreases recoil by 20%; and any combination of the above.

I am familiar with the issues of perceived recoil vs. measured recoil; stock design influence on perceived recoil; rifle weight negative when hauling it vs. positive when shooting it etc. and I am not engaging in these debates because this is likely not what you seek. Again, you already know all that. So, just sharing my experience, which I think is what you seek, I will say that I own a CZ 550 in .416 Rigby scoped with a low power Schmidt & Bender variable in Alaskan rings. It weighs exactly 10 lbs 10 ounces unloaded and rewards me with 56 ft/lb of recoil when I pull the trigger. I also own a Mauser 66 (the telescopic action that pioneered the concept made mainstream by Blaser) in .458 Lott with a Docter III sight (see my post re. Reflex Sights on Dangerous Game Rifles). It weighs exactly 9 lbs. even, and rewards me with 78 ft/lb of recoil when I pull the trigger. I can witness that there is definitely a substantial felt recoil difference between the two when I shoot them one after the other. The subjective experience bears the objective math that says that there is a 39% increase in recoil ((78-56)/56 x 100=39%)

As you would expect, neither are comfortable to shoot from the traditional "American" way of shooting benchrest, i.e. leaning heavily into the gun. This being stated, shooting the "British" way standing behind a tall bench, or shooting the "European" way sitting on a low stool from a high table bench - both techniques resulting in the same effect of having a straight back and allowing the body to roll back with the recoil - is a completely different experience. Using the thickest recoil shoulder pad available (I use the PAST Super Mag Plus Recoil Pad Shield) makes yet another level of difference. Finally, once sighted, using either gun in some fun walking drills with buff cardboard silhouettes completely erases the pain. The recoil is still here but not an issue, just as happens when hunting. Two things though, if you get a .450 Rigby/.458 Lott make sure you have plenty of eye relief if you shoot a scope on these snap shots, but you know that too; and if you are starting to age (50+) keep an eye on retina detachment (pun fully intended) under recoil.

All of that to say: the .450 will kick noticeably more; objective fact. You can deal with it at the bench if you have a stance that allows you to roll with it; experimental fact. You will never feel it in action; generally accepted perception.

Whichever way you go, enjoy the new gun.

Thanks for the well thought out response! My main struggle is NOT buying a new gun I don't need! Truth is, I doubt I'll ever use a rifle of more than 416 power on a hunt. I do, however, love big bore rifles, and heavy bullets! Ever since I sold my 470 double, I kind of wanted another 45+ caliber rifle, but it's only just for the sake of having it. I feel a 416 is more than enough gun for what I plan to ever hunt. So, I should probably just spend the money toward my hunt instead. (Damn you logic!)

 

[Don458]

I'm kind of wanting a Sako Brown Bear rifle. I love the way these rifles feel, and point. They have very smooth operation, hold 4 rounds in the magazine, and have excellent iron sights. I also have a Sako Kodiak 375 that I love, so this would be a great companion. So enough about the rifle.
I'm stuck choosing between 416 Rigby and 450 Rigby. I already have a 416 Rem, and a 416 Ruger. BUT, I have always liked the idea of a 416 Rigby. That said, the 450 Rigby is kind of intriguing as well. The 458 diameter isn't as versatile as the 416, but the bullet selection is much greater, and has the capacity to hit much harder, with much more bullet weight. I know the 416 rifles I already own are all I would ever NEED, and not sure I NEED either a 416 or 450 Rigby, but my safe is getting bored and needs a new resident! Thoughts?

I have been trying to find more info on these sako brown bears , are they CRF or push feed ?

 

[TOBY458]

Easy one, 450 Rigby!

Do you have any experience with the 450 vs the 416? I know you like the 416 Rigby over the other 416s, but is there a noticeable difference in the killing effect of the 450 on Buffalo?

 

[One Day...]

PS: love the Sako too. Had a lovely .375 H&H built by Dumoulin in Belgium on a Sako 75 action in the days (40 years ago...) when true magnum length Mauser-style actions were scarce (and did not want to butcher and weaken a standard length Mauser to force fit a .375 H&H in it). Replaced it eventually with a Brno ZKK 602 actioned .375 H&H. Replaced it with a CZ 550 actioned .416 Rigby. Don't own a .375 anymore. Found happiness with .340 wby 250 gr / .416 Rigby 400 gr / .458 Lott 500 gr (and occasionally .300 wby 150 gr for the very light stuff).

PS - PS: in those days we called this action the L-61R magnum

 

[TOBY458]

I have been trying to find more info on these sako brown bears , are they CRF or push feed ?

Kind of both. I have a Sako 85 Kodiak in 375, and it's control round feed, but has the sako style extractor with an open bolt face, to allow the cartridge to ride up underneath the extractor before the round is chambered. It doesn't grab the cartridge and hold on to it quite as soon as a mauser type action though.

 

[One Day...]

I have been trying to find more info on these sako brown bears , are they CRF or push feed ?

My understanding is that the 75 series is push feed but that Sako describes the 85 series as controlled round feed (CRF). However, it does not feature the traditional Mauser extractor that literally carries the cartridge into the chamber and also carries it backward if the bolt is not closed. Regardless of the shape and location of extractor and ejector, the true usefulness, and test, of CRF is that because bolt & cartridge are mechanically attached as soon as the cartridge leaves the feeding lips, double feeding is technically impossible. My understanding is that the Sako 85 can be made to double feed i.e. jam if the bolt is not closed on a cartridge but is moved backward past the magazine well, then forward again feeding another round. It is essentially a push feed with the bottom of the bolt lip milled away.

 

[Don458]

My understanding is that the 75 series is push feed but that Sako describes the 85 series as controlled round feed (CRF). However, it does not feature the traditional Mauser extractor that literally carries the cartridge into the chamber and also carries it backward if the bolt is not closed. Regardless of the shape and location of extractor and ejector, the true usefulness, and test, of CRF is that because bolt & cartridge are mechanically attached as soon as the cartridge leaves the feeding lips, double feeding is technically impossible. My understanding is that the Sako 85 can be made to double feed i.e. jam if the bolt is not closed on a cartridge but is moved backward past the magazine well, then forward again feeding another round. It is essentially a push feed with the bottom of the bolt lip milled away.

I have been looking at the 500 jeffery

 

[One Day...]

Thanks for the well thought out response! My main struggle is NOT buying a new gun I don't need! Truth is, I doubt I'll ever use a rifle of more than 416 power on a hunt. I do, however, love big bore rifles, and heavy bullets! Ever since I sold my 470 double, I kind of wanted another 45+ caliber rifle, but it's only just for the sake of having it. I feel a 416 is more than enough gun for what I plan to ever hunt. So, I should probably just spend the money toward my hunt instead. (Damn you logic!)

I hear you. I used to have a Belgium made pre-WWII Jules Bury 450#2 double that I had to sell to send my kids to college. Even though .375 H&H proved sufficient for Pennsylvania deer, I simply HAD to have a big bore. Hence my .458. And Win. would not do, I HAD to have it opened to Lott. Not a futile move, mind you, this was in the early 1990's, but guess where I am finally headed this August ;-) And in the mean time I had 20 years of unique pleasure pulling it out of the safe and running its action - now silk smooth as a result - dreaming about THAT day. Worth every penny I spent in it.

 

[One Day...]

Do you have any experience with the 450 vs the 416? I know you like the 416 Rigby over the other 416s, but is there a noticeable difference in the killing effect of the 450 on Buffalo?

By every account of the people who were/are reasonably expert at it (which I am NOT), the answer is a clear YES. From the old hands' books to the modern PH's posts, the answer seems to be quite unanimous that .375 will kill them in time; .416 will numb them; and .458 Lott et al. - not Win. - can (notice "can" not "will") poleax them.

This being said, people usually engage at this stage of the discussion in the endless distractions about Roy Weatherby having shot a buff with a .257 Wby, about the literary record of a kid in British Africa killing a buff with a .22 lr. (apparently hit it squarely through the ear canal), etc. ... and on the other end of the silly debate about people having been disemboweled most thoroughly by buffs already carrying a dozen or so .500 slugs, or any variety of .450 / .470, by the time they covered the last yard....

So, yes, by all accounts there is a noticeable difference between .416 and .458 on buffs, granted anything can kill a buff under the right circumstances, and apparently nothing short of an artillery shell in the body - or a brain shot - will stop it cold under the wrong circumstances.

 

[IvW]

Do you have any experience with the 450 vs the 416? I know you like the 416 Rigby over the other 416s, but is there a noticeable difference in the killing effect of the 450 on Buffalo?

For sure, especially if you load them with 550 grain bullets!
Although I consider the 404 Jeff and the 416 Rigby as the ideal calibers for buffalo, the 450 Rigby definitely kills with more authority and has more Hp to stop a Cape Buffalo when things go south. Also ideal for elephant. Same velocity, much heavier bullet with a greater frontal area-kills better.

450 Rigby would be the only caliber I would choose if I had to have a 458.

What is all this "kick" everybodytalks about? I thought only donkeys kick and rifles recoil?

 

[One Day...]

450 Rigby would be the only caliber I would choose if I had to have a 458.

Wish it would have been an option 20 years ago. But I have been toying recently with the idea of partnering my CZ 550 .416 Rigby with its bigger sister in .450 Rigby (and a smaller sister in .338 Lapua). Kind of continuing with the ballistic trio I like and currently have (.340 Wby / .416 Rigby / .458 Lott) but in carbon/copy rifles...

 

[IvW]

@TOBY458, why not just get a 500 Jeff.

I have been using one for many years and it has been so devastatingly effective on the largest of animals(Buff, elephant, Lion, rhino, hippo) that I just can't justify buying any other rifle/cartridge combination. Stopped many a nasty situation and have only ever needed one shot as with correct shot placement it just flattens everything. I have not been able to justify a second shot.

Sure needs differ, I use mine mainly in back up situations. Clients are better off with smaller calibers that they shoot better though(375 H&H, 404 Jeffery or 450 Rigby-458 LOTT if you have to, 458 WM definitely not).

The big 500 may just be the thing.