450 black powder express

[Nick1982]

Hallo,
Looking for some safe loads for my old H&H double rifle in 450 Black powder express.
I have pyrodex select RS and triple seven. 325 grains and 500 grains jacked bullets available.
Lead bullets on the way 300 grains.

Greetings Nick

 

[analog_peninsula]

Get a copy of Shooting the British Double Rifle from Buffalo Arms. Lots of data and safe, tested loads.

 

[Huvius]

Get a copy of Shooting the British Double Rifle from Buffalo Arms. Lots of data and safe, tested loads.

Very good advice although you won't find any info in there for the powders you've chosen.

Being an H&H, is it their 500/450 or is it a regular 450 3-1/4"?

When you say "325 grains and 500 grains jacked bullets available" does that mean you already have them?
Who made them? What is their construction? You'll want a thin jacket if you are going to use jacketed - something like Hawk, Woodleigh BPE, or the old 350gr Hornady RN.
In a double, the 500gr will be almost useless and you'd likely be getting too high pressures to get enough velocity to regulate.

 

[Nick1982]

Thanks for the replys.
I alreayd have the book.
The gun is from 1884 according the H&H records.
It is in the 450 3/14 kaliber.
It is only black powder.
The barrel is marked .440
All info an advice welcome.
Greetings Nick

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I , personally, would not use pyrodex in it (or anything for that matter) but would use proper black powder and cast lead projectiles as the rifle was designed for it.
Gumpy

 

[Vintageguy]

If you use black powder, I would use a dry thin card under the bullet and on top of a greased wad. The dry card will prevent the greased one sticking to the base of the bullet affecting accuracy and the greased one softens the fouling.
Your gun should be marked on the barrel flats for the load.

 

[TheDoubleD]

Do you have the New 4th Edition of Shooting British Double Rifles? It has new loads and lot more pages.

 

[Huvius]

If you use black powder, I would use a dry thin card under the bullet and on top of a greased wad. The dry card will prevent the greased one sticking to the base of the bullet affecting accuracy and the greased one softens the fouling.

That's close to what I've settled on for most of my BP cartridge shooting except that I put a thin card under the greased wad to keep it separated from the powder. I do usually use a grease cookie that I suppose could seep when the temperature gets hot.
One could store and carry their ammunition nose down to avoid this to some extent.

In period, the 450 3-1/4" generally had a powder charge of 120grs with a variety of bullet weights.
I've found that the 450 needs quite a bit of powder compression to fit 120grs of modern powder in the case, especially if one wants to use a wad of some sort which takes up 1/8" below the bullet losing a bit of powder space.
I believe original BPE cartridges didn't use any kind of lube wads but do use wads of varying thicknesses under the bullet.

 

[Nick1982]

Do you have the New 4th Edition of Shooting British Double Rifles? It has new loads and lot more pages.

Yes, only the components mentioned in the book are not readily available here

 

[TheDoubleD]

Yes, only the components mentioned in the book are not readily available here

I am in the US and have had no problem finding the same or equivalant components.

Yes Woodleigh is in short supply. I still have 440 gr. .510's for my 500 EXP. But I also have Barnes Originals 450 gr in .510 that will also work, with mionor tweaking.

Some of the ADI powder are not availabl ehere, but many of the ADI are sold under Hodgdon brand. My current facorite Varget is an ADI powder for example.

 

[Vintageguy]

I have also used bullets with lube grooves and gas checks when I needed that extra bit of space for powder to reach my desired velocity with good results.

 

[Nick1982]

So all these loads are safe for an old rifle? (1884)
even the Nitro for black loads.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

They should be fine as long as you don’t exceed the recommended load coupled with the appropriate weight projectile and appropriate filler. It all depends on the condition of the firearm. Has it been inspected by a competent person ( gunsmith or other) who understands old firearms, not some fool who thinks anything more than fifty years old is dangerous.
Gumpy

 

[Nick1982]

They should be fine as long as you don’t exceed the recommended load coupled with the appropriate weight projectile and appropriate filler. It all depends on the condition of the firearm. Has it been inspected by a competent person ( gunsmith or other) who understands old firearms, not some fool who thinks anything more than fifty years old is dangerous.
Gumpy

Hallo Gumpy, thanks for the reply.
Thanks for all the replies the matter of fact.
Do you know any specialists in Belgium?
For doubles in Nitro i know some.
For doubles in black is quit rare here.

Greetings Nick

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I’m on the other side of the world from Belgium, you could ask the gunsmith/ specialist if they are willing to look it over, they hopefully will have some knowledge of older firearms, or may be able to tell you who to show it to, they may also be able to tell you of any black powder clubs in the area that can direct you who to take it to. Im a black powder shooter myself, hence why I have suggested using "the holy black " in it, as it was built for it( just need to remember to clean it after use), whilst it is still capable of being used with nitro. I also prefer lubed cast lead in older barrels to lessen the wear on them
Gumpy