450-400 vs 375 (and then flanged or belted) and new or used?

.... Secondly, it needs to be a rifle with the inherent accuracy to effectively shoot at such distances to take advantage of a telescopic sight. Such a rifle is actually getting harder to find among many of the current doubles because most leave the factory with only 50-meter regulation.

Heym regulated my 9.3x74R for 50 meters with irons and 100m with the scope weight on. I verified it and it is within an inch group for L,R barrels from shooting sticks. While I am in the process of setting up the turrets on my scope for 50, 100, 150, 200 yards (for the left barrel) I do not expect to shoot it for further than 100 yards based on what I am told by the PHs in regards to bait.

Now, if I were to head to Africa for a trophy Sable etc., I think I would take the .300 RUM with 200 grain bullets.
 
Heym regulated my 9.3x74R for 50 meters with irons and 100m with the scope weight on. I verified it and it is within an inch group for L,R barrels from shooting sticks. While I am in the process of setting up the turrets on my scope for 50, 100, 150, 200 yards (for the left barrel) I do not expect to shoot it for further than 100 yards based on what I am told by the PHs in regards to bait.

Now, if I were to head to Africa for a trophy Sable etc., I think I would take the .300 RUM with 200 grain bullets.
What a novel concept. An newly built, high quality double, with absolutely classic lines capable of real accuracy to 200 meters and a bit. You must feel as "improper" as a pair of brown shoes with a tuxedo (with due credit to George Gobel). ;)

I am taking my .275 for sable next month. It's a thing.
 
Red Leg you have pretty much stated exactly what I was saying. Old world nostalgia doubles are not suited to plainsgame. Modern doubles don't have the nostalgia but they have accuracy.

So essentially you can't have your cake and eat it. I just see 'modern ' doubles as similar to a replica AC cobra. More reliable but not as cool. And a cheaper bolt gun will still be more accurate !
Seriously? Have you actually looked at or used a current production Heym? I can't believe you have actually held one. They are as traditional as they come. They are also built with great inherent accuracy that allows them to be constructed at the bench with alternative scope use in mind. Or perhaps only a "proper" double has to originate from prior to one of the World Wars? Rigby, Westley Richards, or Holland & Holland will be delighted to take your order for that same sort of accuracy and telescopic sight capability in Rising Bite, Drop Lock, or Royal this afternoon. All of those patents date to 1879, 1897, & 1908 respectively.
 
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Seriously? Have you actually looked at or used a current production Heym? I can't believe you have actually held one. They are as traditional as they come. They are also built with great inherent accuracy that allows them to be constructed at the bench with alternative scope use in mind. Or perhaps only a "proper" double has to originate from prior to one of the World Wars? Rigby, Westley Richards, or Holland & Holland will be delighted to take your order for that same sort of accuracy and telescopic sight capability in Rising Bite, Drop Lock, or Royal this afternoon. All of those patents date to 1879, 1897, & 1908
Life is too short. Of course a double rifle is just as accurate as a bolt gun. The inherent engineering limitations of a double are a figment of my imagination. I have never seen or heard of a double rifle. In fact I am beginning to wonder if I even like shooting and hunting.

Sorry op. This thread seems to have decended into a bit of a waste of time. I wish you all the best- choose what makes you happy and have fun.
 
What a novel concept. An newly built, high quality double, with absolutely classic lines capable of real accuracy to 200 meters and a bit. You must feel as "improper" as a pair of brown shoes with a tuxedo (with due credit to George Gobel). ;)

200 yard 6 shot group today (10X magnification) from the left barrel. The flyer on the bottom is all me. I am not going to try to move the windage as it is dead on at 60 yards which will be the range at I most likely will shoot at the Leopard. To say I am pleased with the accuracy is an understatement.

By the way the Swarovski ballistic calculator at their site is right on. This was the easiest
1625606351439.png


1625606077004.png
 
200 yard 6 shot group today (10X magnification) from the left barrel. The flyer on the bottom is all me. I am not going to try to move the windage as it is dead on at 60 yards which will be the range at I most likely will shoot at the Leopard. To say I am pleased with the accuracy is an understatement.

By the way the Swarovski ballistic calculator at their site is right on. This was the easiest View attachment 411105

View attachment 411104
You must have done that with a pencil - no double can do that! More importantly, no double should ever be used that way - particularly one in classic styling! Even if you and the rifle did do it - that is simply not the proper way to use a double!

Thought I'd save them the trouble. ;)

Great group and great shooting. Did you try a four shot LxR/LxR at 100 to see what a combined group looks like? I bet you have minute of wildebeest to at least 150 - probably 200 for an instant follow-up.

And that cat is in trouble.
 
My vote would be a Heym double in 450/400.

Was talking with Doc at the Heym booth at the DSC show a few years ago on this same topic. He emphatically endorsed the 450/400. Said: "A 450/400 should be the first double you get and the last one that you sell." Coming from someone with his level of experience, that carries a lot of weight.

Recoil is not much different from a 375 H&H in my opinion but stepping up from a 300 gr to 400 gr bullet is significant.

Another reason to pick the 450/400 over a 375 is you can easily find that in a bolt gun.
 
My vote would be a Heym double in 450/400.

Was talking with Doc at the Heym booth at the DSC show a few years ago on this same topic. He emphatically endorsed the 450/400. Said: "A 450/400 should be the first double you get and the last one that you sell." Coming from someone with his level of experience, that carries a lot of weight.

Recoil is not much different from a 375 H&H in my opinion but stepping up from a 300 gr to 400 gr bullet is significant.

Another reason to pick the 450/400 over a 375 is you can easily find that in a bolt gun.
True - but the Op is looking for a general purpose African game double - not a pair of rifles. A 450/400 is indeed an excellent buffalo rifle and just adequate elephant gun with the right bullet. It is a pretty poor choice if the buffalo is going to be accompanied with a list of half a dozen PG animals. I suspect Doc would emphatically agree with that as well (we have had this discussion before).

A scoped, accurate .375 on the other hand would do both not merely adequately, but extremely well. Based upon the OP's initial requirement, the choice is not even close - however much that seems to irritate the conventional wisdom community - few if any of the whom seemed to have ever actually employed a .375 double in that or any other role. Just to further upset the conventional apple cart, my second choice for such a general purpose double (assuming elephant were excluded) would be a 9.3x74R by a wide margin over the 450.
 
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True - but the Op is looking for a general purpose African game double - not a pair of rifles. A 450/400 is indeed an excellent buffalo rifle and just adequate elephant gun with the right bullet. It is a pretty poor choice if the buffalo is going to be accompanied with a list of half a dozen PG animals. I suspect Doc would emphatically agree with that as well (we have had this discussion before).
...

I think @cal pappas has taken a caribou in Alaska at 200+ yards (there is a YouTube video of it) with his .450/400 and a multitude of PG and of course DG in Africa.

His video was instrumental of me considering the .450/400 instead of the 9.3x74R when I placed my order with Heym. If I did not already have a .450 NE I would have gone for it. Not to mention I would never go to Africa with only one firearm so my thought process was to go with a caliber a bit more suited for PG.
 
I think @cal pappas has taken a caribou in Alaska at 200+ yards (there is a YouTube video of it) with his .450/400 and a multitude of PG and of course DG in Africa.

His video was instrumental of me considering the .450/400 instead of the 9.3x74R when I placed my order with Heym. If I did not already have a .450 NE I would have gone for it. Not to mention I would never go to Africa with only one firearm so my thought process was to go with a caliber a bit more suited for PG.
I have no doubt he has. He is also a true expert in the use of a double and he spends a lot of time in Africa where a missed opportunity one day doesn't really matter. That would not be the case for I suspect 99% of the correspondents on our site. A scoped quality .375 double offers essentially no less capability than a bolt action in the same caliber. That is not the case with the typical .450.
 
Thanks all for the replies. I feel like I’m dialing in my decision with the feedback.
Some of the more recent discussion brings me back to one of my original questions. Can anyone speak to the described improvement in terminal ballistics with the 450/400 over the 375? Many AH members, gun writers, and gun/ammo companies have argued for the superiority of 450/400. I would assume this would be at shorter ranges. I just struggle to comprehend that in such similar power bands (same energy between the 450/400 and 375 flanged) and the small change in diameter (roughly 20% increase in frontal surface area—but relative to the size vitals and animal surface area we are hunting?) that difference in effect on game would be “dramatic” as it is often described.
In my hunting experience, which pales in comparison to probably everyone on this site, as long as I put the bullet through the heart or the lungs of my quarry I’ve not yet noticed a dramatic difference in the way different cartridges “hit” from .264-.325 calibers and in different power ranges. My most stark example thus far is seeing a whitetail drop stone dead on the spot to a 6.5 “man bun” and another run 75-100 yards after a 325 wsm—same size deer, both heart shot through left ventricle. After that I started to harbor less and less faith in the small differences between cartridges.
that said, the range of game I’ve hunted is small relative to that on this site and I’ve not experimented as much with cartridge selection for larger quarry, tending to always take larger calibers after big black bear/elk.
As such, I remain interested in everyone’s wisdom about difference in terminal performance between these two. Thanks all for the responses thus far
 
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I'm going to aswer a question you didnt' ask..yet.

If you get a double triggered gun, train yourself from Day One to pull the rear trigger with the tip of your index finger not the joint of your index finger. Re-enforce this until it is second nature – every day for a while until you do it every time.

Because the LOP is about an inch or so shorter on the rear trigger, it’s easy to get into the habit of wrapping your finger around the trigger instead of with the pad of the index finger – this is what causes the bruised/cut trigger finger when the rear trigger is pulled and heavy recoil is unleashed.
 
Thanks all for the replies. I feel like I’m dialing in my decision with the feedback.
Some of the more recent discussion brings me back to one of my original questions. Can anyone speak to the described improvement in terminal ballistics with the 450/400 over the 375? Many AH members, gun writers, and gun/ammo companies have argued for the superiority of 450/400. I would assume this would be at shorter ranges. I just struggle to comprehend that in such similar power bands (same energy between the 450/400 and 375 flanged) and the small change in diameter (roughly 20% increase in frontal surface area—but relative to the size vitals and animal surface area we are hunting?) that difference in effect on game would be “dramatic” as it is often described.
In my hunting experience, which pales in comparison to probably everyone on this site, as long as I put the bullet through the heart or the lungs of my quarry I’ve not yet noticed a dramatic difference in the way different cartridges “hit” from .264-.325 calibers and in different power ranges. My most stark example thus far is seeing a whitetail drop stone dead on the spot to a 6.5 “man bun” and another run 75-100 yards after a 325 wsm—same size deer, both heart shot through left ventricle. After that I started to harbor less and less faith in the small differences between cartridges.
that said, the range of game I’ve hunted is small relative to that on this site and I’ve not experimented as much with cartridge selection for larger quarry, tending to always take larger calibers after big black bear/elk.
As such, I remain interested in everyone’s wisdom about difference in terminal performance between these two. Thanks all for the responses thus far
Idk how people feel about VC, or know anything about the 375 Flanged .. however, G.I. has a listing.?. https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...375-flanged-double-rifle.cfm?gun_id=101666353
 

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The OP is getting solid advice and accurate disclosures about doubles on this thread, particularly the sage advice and options from Redleg.

I’ll not beat a dead horse on double aesthetics or brands although I do like Heyms and pre-war British stuff myself.

So ballistics: a 375HH flanged and a 9.3x74r are both pretty common and “inexpensive” double rifle calibers. They are both built on small frames that cannot accommodate dangerous game calibers. Both are adhering to the original bullet weight and velocities to regulate in a double rifle so their versatility is hampered compared to their rimless magazine rifle twins: 375HH belted and 9.3x64 brenneke. By all means, buy a gun in one of these calibers and use it for hunting in the US and for Africa, but these aren’t your dangerous game cartridges of choice, especially when in a double rifle “light load, standard bullet” configuration.

A 450/400 is a significant step up in performance as a dangerous game double rifle caliber just as it’s rimless twin, the 404 Jefferey is a better Buffalo gun than a 375. Do not be deceived by the relative velocity and energy similarities between a 375 and a 450/400. 1.) the bigger hole does matter, professionals have noted this for more than a century that the 40 cal bullets are just more effective. 2.) the charts that make them seem similar are assuming a standard 375HH versus a vintage 450/400 with a 350gr bullet. Modern doubles are shooting 400gr and 450gr bullets from a 450-400 and it’s quite a step up in performance. Also, the sweetheart recoil of 41lbs from the 450-400 is quite a bit higher with the 450gr bullet, but still more manageable than the next step up in dangerous game rounds.

In practicalities, you will own a 375HH magazine rifle for US and Africa and you will buy a dangerous game double rifle. You will kill dangerous game half the time with the 375HH because you were chasing plains game with it when you happened upon a Buffalo. Also, you will kill plains game with your 450-400 or larger double rifle when it presents itself too, just with less success and fewer opportunities.

We can wax poetic about multi barrel guns with all the options but the reality is you can buy 4 good used rifles for the price of one new rifle with all the caliber barrels you want. I’d never go to Africa with less than two whole guns anyway, so just buy more guns.

No one has ever been called an idiot for buying a 375HH magazine rifle and a large bore double rifle. It’s a classic setup. In the end, the double rifle gets 5% of the use of the 375HH bolt gun, but it’s great to have both.

My 375HH has killed more animals than my 470NE double rifle has fired rounds of ammunition. I bet that’s a common situation. Let that sink in as you decide which to give priority.

Since you want a double too, get a big one, a 375 flanged or 9.3x74r is a great specialty gun for a fellow that has a broad array of guns, but it isn’t the first double most people would opt to own.
 
The OP is getting solid advice and accurate disclosures about doubles on this thread, particularly the sage advice and options from Redleg.

I’ll not beat a dead horse on double aesthetics or brands although I do like Heyms and pre-war British stuff myself.

So ballistics: a 375HH flanged and a 9.3x74r are both pretty common and “inexpensive” double rifle calibers. They are both built on small frames that cannot accommodate dangerous game calibers. Both are adhering to the original bullet weight and velocities to regulate in a double rifle so their versatility is hampered compared to their rimless magazine rifle twins: 375HH belted and 9.3x64 brenneke. By all means, buy a gun in one of these calibers and use it for hunting in the US and for Africa, but these aren’t your dangerous game cartridges of choice, especially when in a double rifle “light load, standard bullet” configuration.

A 450/400 is a significant step up in performance as a dangerous game double rifle caliber just as it’s rimless twin, the 404 Jefferey is a better Buffalo gun than a 375. Do not be deceived by the relative velocity and energy similarities between a 375 and a 450/400. 1.) the bigger hole does matter, professionals have noted this for more than a century that the 40 cal bullets are just more effective. 2.) the charts that make them seem similar are assuming a standard 375HH versus a vintage 450/400 with a 350gr bullet. Modern doubles are shooting 400gr and 450gr bullets from a 450-400 and it’s quite a step up in performance. Also, the sweetheart recoil of 41lbs from the 450-400 is quite a bit higher with the 450gr bullet, but still more manageable than the next step up in dangerous game rounds.

In practicalities, you will own a 375HH magazine rifle for US and Africa and you will buy a dangerous game double rifle. You will kill dangerous game half the time with the 375HH because you were chasing plains game with it when you happened upon a Buffalo. Also, you will kill plains game with your 450-400 or larger double rifle when it presents itself too, just with less success and fewer opportunities.

We can wax poetic about multi barrel guns with all the options but the reality is you can buy 4 good used rifles for the price of one new rifle with all the caliber barrels you want. I’d never go to Africa with less than two whole guns anyway, so just buy more guns.

No one has ever been called an idiot for buying a 375HH magazine rifle and a large bore double rifle. It’s a classic setup. In the end, the double rifle gets 5% of the use of the 375HH bolt gun, but it’s great to have both.

My 375HH has killed more animals than my 470NE double rifle has fired rounds of ammunition. I bet that’s a common situation. Let that sink in as you decide which to give priority.

Since you want a double too, get a big one, a 375 flanged or 9.3x74r is a great specialty gun for a fellow that has a broad array of guns, but it isn’t the first double most people would opt to own.
Great summation Rook. In the end one does infinitely more safaris in ones head than in the bush and the anticipation and daydreaming are so enjoyable. So buy what makes you feel good, with a dose of reality thrown in.
I have gravitated to your panacea if a 450/400 double and a 375H&H scoped rifle. That will do everything, but my ambition is to take at least as many animals with the double as the rifle, just through bush craft.
 
Great summation Rook. In the end one does infinitely more safaris in ones head than in the bush and the anticipation and daydreaming are so enjoyable. So buy what makes you feel good, with a dose of reality thrown in.
I have gravitated to your panacea if a 450/400 double and a 375H&H scoped rifle. That will do everything, but my ambition is to take at least as many animals with the double as the rifle, just through bush craft.

I get it @Kevin Peacocke , you also bought arguably the most accurate 375 Flanged double money can buy, and you also own a host of other doubles and magazine rifles if you think you’ll be in open country where you need the range, and you live in a nation where most shots are or can be relatively close. Your mentality (and mine) is not representative of the use cases of many North American hunters.

While you and I wouldn‘t approve, there is a reasonable portion of the US population that can see large game over here at great distances and take a shot across mountains in the 800-1300 yard range. (Western US - Elk) Some Americans assume if you can see it, you should try to shoot it. Our TV hunting shows glorify this sentiment, and the average US hunter has never stalked an animal and doesn’t know how. Not saying any of this applies to the nature of the original post author, but the point is that if an American wants to use a gun both in the USA and in Africa, the only gun that can kill a buffalo at 30 yards and a North American Elk at 380 yards is the 375HH in a magazine rifle. Anything bigger or with two barrels is getting mighty specialized.
 

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Grz63 wrote on Werty's profile.
(cont'd)
Rockies museum,
CM Russel museum and lewis and Clark interpretative center
Horseback riding in Summer star ranch
Charlo bison range and Garnet ghost town
Flathead lake, road to the sun and hiking in Glacier NP
and back to SLC (via Ogden and Logan)
Grz63 wrote on Werty's profile.
Good Morning,
I plan to visit MT next Sept.
May I ask you to give me your comments; do I forget something ? are my choices worthy ? Thank you in advance
Philippe (France)

Start in Billings, Then visit little big horn battlefield,
MT grizzly encounter,
a hot springs (do you have good spots ?)
Looking to buy a 375 H&H or .416 Rem Mag if anyone has anything they want to let go of
 
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