.450/400 or .375 H&H

[ChrisG]

No experience. Google search found this, for what it is worth. http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_hits_table_syn.htm

Just over 2000 H.I.T.S. For 300 gr 375 compared to 2400 H.I.T.S. For 400 gr 450/400.

This is very interesting. The .416s didn't even break 3000. Maybe the 450/400 is a significant step up in killing power without a bunch of recoil tacked on.

 

[AZDAVE]

Since you are talking a #1 and not a double where you would have to worry about regulation. In my #1 450/400 I get 2400pfs with a 400gr barnes solid and a woodleigh with RL 19 and H4831. In my 450/400 VC double I am still working on the best load with 400gr A-Frames and northfork solids2075fps vs 2150. I just have to label them very clearly so that you don't mix them up. Yes I am very careful. I would get the 450/400 and not look back, with practice you can shoot the #1 for two shots as fast as a bolt gun.

 

[CAustin]

ChrisG
You could get a Ruger Guide Gun in 416 Ruger that will be similar in cost to the number 1 in 450/400. That's a 400 grain bullet moving at about 2400 feet per second.
I'm holding that rifle in my Avitar ! And you can see the work it does.

 

[ChrisG]

ChrisG
You could get a Ruger Guide Gun in 416 Ruger that will be similar in cost to the number 1 in 450/400. That's a 400 grain bullet moving at about 2400 feet per second.
I'm holding that rifle in my Avitar ! And you can see the work it does.

I think you should go to work for the marketing department of Ruger CAustin!

I can't say I disagree with you. Ruger's are so well built for the price you pay it isn't even funny. The Ruger Guide Guns are fantastic, and I think the .416 Ruger is a good round, even if Hornady's ballistics on factory loads are nearly impossible to duplicate. But getting 2250 fps out of it would not be a problem... The thing is... I LOVE classic cartridges... and If I were to go with a big bore, I would really want it to have an "N.E.", "Rigby", "Gibbs", or "Jeffrey" on the casehead. Plus all of them look so impressive, even if the Ruger can match some of them ballistically. It is a sad state of affairs, but my mind just cannot accept less. If I were to buy a guide gun I would always look fondly at the Classic African Big Bore Cartridge collection I have on the wall in my reloading room and be sad... because I still wouldn't have one. The only .416 I would be able to go for would be the Rigby or, even though it's not technically a classic, the 500/416.... That's just the way it works.

 

[ChrisG]

Since you are talking a #1 and not a double where you would have to worry about regulation. In my #1 450/400 I get 2400pfs with a 400gr barnes solid and a woodleigh with RL 19 and H4831. In my 450/400 VC double I am still working on the best load with 400gr A-Frames and northfork solids2075fps vs 2150. I just have to label them very clearly so that you don't mix them up. Yes I am very careful. I would get the 450/400 and not look back, with practice you can shoot the #1 for two shots as fast as a bolt gun.

This is good to know. Where did you get your load data from? I can't seem to find modern load data that takes advantage of the 450/400's case capacity. Usually it stops at 2150fps because mostly it is made for doubles and they usually won't regulat beyond that. I thought maybe that was the highest it would go, but then I realized it has like 25% more case capacity than my .375 H&H. It should do better. Thanks

 

[CAustin]

Keep looking then! You will find the classic that speaks to you! In the mean time keep saving $$$$.

 

[ChrisG]

Keep looking then! You will find the classic that speaks to you! In the mean time keep saving $$$$.

Will Do!

 

[spike.t]

I think you should go to work for the marketing department of Ruger CAustin!

I can't say I disagree with you. Ruger's are so well built for the price you pay it isn't even funny. The Ruger Guide Guns are fantastic, and I think the .416 Ruger is a good round, even if Hornady's ballistics on factory loads are nearly impossible to duplicate. But getting 2250 fps out of it would not be a problem... The thing is... I LOVE classic cartridges... and If I were to go with a big bore, I would really want it to have an "N.E.", "Rigby", "Gibbs", or "Jeffrey" on the casehead. Plus all of them look so impressive, even if the Ruger can match some of them ballistically. It is a sad state of affairs, but my mind just cannot accept less. If I were to buy a guide gun I would always look fondly at the Classic African Big Bore Cartridge collection I have on the wall in my reloading room and be sad... because I still wouldn't have one. The only .416 I would be able to go for would be the Rigby or, even though it's not technically a classic, the 500/416.... That's just the way it works.

kinda figured it had something to do with proper cartridges and not these johnny come lately types ......as you reload go for the 450/400 now ,and when you have played with it for a bit and if its not quite what you wanted then sell it and move up a calibre or two. at least you are then getting the experience of a classic and having fun at the same time.

 

[ChrisG]

Just found this video of a guy practicing reloads with a ruger No. 1 in .375 Ruger... It's probably only a little bit slower than you can cycle a bolt gun.

 

[rookhawk]

I like the fact that this discussion is being made in light of what other guns are in his battery already because it changes the outcome. Intellectual level of reasoning on this forum at most times.

If he has a .375HH (or a .450/400, or a 404J) he already has "magnum medium bored rifles" covered, especially if I'm to assume the .450/400 is a ruger single shot purchase being contemplated. If he decided he wanted a double rifle I think I'd embrace the .450/400 option because a DR would add a new arrow to his metaphorical quiver.

Considering it seems we are discussing single shots or magazine rifles, I don't think its really giving him something new.

He doesn't have a .470 double rifle. That would be easiest of the true large bores to get ammo for in Africa and is versatile and a true large bore magnum if budget would allow it. Barring that if we are talking about single shots and magazine rifles, others have already suggested the best two candidates to complete his safari rifle compliment and give new capabilities:

.458 Lott / .458 Win

.416 Rigby / .416 Rem

Don't forget Murphy's Law says your ammo is going to be missing when you land in country for your safari. In Zimbabwe, what ammo will they have for you at camp? .30-06, .375HH, .458 Win and *maybe* .470NE. Hence, .458 Lott is a great choice because you can shoot .458 Win out of it when your trip would otherwise be ruined.

In closing, how about a shameless plug for a rifle that would fit the bill perfectly?
http://www.africahunting.com/threads/half-price-custom-single-shot-for-dangerous-game-new.28902/

 

[AZDAVE]

I got my load data from a couple sources.

http://www.realguns.com/articles/336.htm

I used my quick loads program. To get a rough estimate of a starting and stopping point

Last used the loads that stopped at 2150 for double and used that as a startling point on the #1 and used years of experience to develop what
is a safe and accurate load in my rifle.

 

[ChrisG]

Hi Everyone! Thanks for all the replies, I had decided that I was going to pass on the Ruger and as it turned out, It was gone the next time I went to the shop anyway. I will keep my eyes peeled for a real big bore, or at least something that hits that magical 5000 ft*lbs. In the mean time, I am just gonna keep shooting and enjoying the .375. Man! Did Holland & Holland know what they were doing or what!?

 

[Pheroze]

Hi Everyone! Thanks for all the replies, I had decided that I was going to pass on the Ruger and as it turned out, It was gone the next time I went to the shop anyway. I will keep my eyes peeled for a real big bore, or at least something that hits that magical 5000 ft*lbs. In the mean time, I am just gonna keep shooting and enjoying the .375. Man! Did Holland & Holland know what they were doing or what!?

Spending time on this website makes a 375H&H in a Mauser 98 action seem humdrum. But, honestly, both of these inventions are pure genius and classic

 

[ChrisG]

Spending time on this website makes a 375H&H in a Mauser 98 action seem humdrum. But, honestly, both of these inventions are pure genius and classic

It's SO True! When you read through the forum you feel like .375 H&H is the new .30-06, .416 is like a .338 mag and then you really get the big boys. I used to think the .375 H&H was huge until about 10 years ago when I really started looking into African game and rifles.

It still gives your average american "gun guy" pause at the range when he wants to show you his "big rifle" that kicks so hard, few men can withstand the pulse of bone breaking, nosebleeding recoil... and then he breaks out an 8lb, .300 Winchester. I just kind of smile and agree with him and when he goes back down to his bench, I break out the .375 and let him live in his little macho world until I let off the first round and he sees the rifle jump 4 inches off the sandbags and the round hits the backstop like a mortar shell.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Ok, this is an old post but please may I resurrect it with the original question - does anyone have ACTUAL hunting experience of the effects of the 450/400 vs the 375H&H? I know all the data, the point is, is the 450/400 0.410 400 grain bullet that much more effective?

 

[krish]

"I don't need any more unnecessary guns."...............are there such a thing?........

Yes

 

[Tanks]

Ok, this is an old post but please may I resurrect it with the original question - does anyone have ACTUAL hunting experience of the effects of the 450/400 vs the 375H&H? I know all the data, the point is, is the 450/400 0.410 400 grain bullet that much more effective?

You have to go by the DATA. ACTUAL hunting experience has too many variables and is subjective.

Now, Taylor in his book says this in regards to .450/400:

...I can hardly think of a single British gunsmith's name that I haven't seen at some time or another engraved on a rifle handling this shell. It has ever been one of my favorites. I have used it extensively on all kinds of African game from elephant down with the greatest possible satisfaction.

 

[crs]

Kevin P asked "does anyone have ACTUAL hunting experience of the effects of the 450/400 vs the 375H&H? "
Kevin, some of my hand loads for my Winchester 1895 .405 (.411) match the 450/400 in velocity for a 400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore. See pic to the left. Penetration was 40 inches with bullet exiting between front legs., leaving big hole in heart.
Additionally, my 300 grain North Fork Cup Point solid loads at 2250 fps are devastating on big game, including Water Buffalo. From 45 yards, shot through shoulders and exited offside; buff hit the ground dead.
These loads are all at safe pressures, putting no extra strain on the rifle or shooter.
In both cases, other shooters have hand loaded the same bullets to higher velocities.

I hope this helps.

 

[Peter Larsson]

Ok, this is an old post but please may I resurrect it with the original question - does anyone have ACTUAL hunting experience of the effects of the 450/400 vs the 375H&H? I know all the data, the point is, is the 450/400 0.410 400 grain bullet that much more effective?

I know that two buffs dont say mutch but I and a friend went buffalo hunting a few years ago. I with a Brno ZKK 375HH and my friend with an 450-400 3 1/4. My buff whent about 5 meters after the shot and didn't ever made a deth bellow. My friends buff we chased for about two days after first shot. He used old Kynoch ammo. Guess the bullets were too soft. It was a good hit.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Thanks to both @Tanks and @crs, you have reinforced what I thought to be the case. The question comes partly in respect to my own impending 450/400 and also in respect of my Godson learner PH. The learners mostly shoot 375 H&H's up to the end of their appyships, but thereafter the aspiration is to move up some. In the expectation of perhaps having to stop DG in a tight spot, would a well shot 450/400 double suffice? Or is a 470 double the minimum for that? 470's are expensive and hard to find here, 450/400's are easier. It is tempting to say "well just start with the 450/400 and move up later", but a tight situation is just as likely to occur in early career as in late, maybe more so. So is a 450/400 double in competent hands enough for a PH?