45-70 Performance

[Fastrig]

Sorry for the ignorant question, new to Africa hunting, but I was under the impression lever acti0ns were not allow, only bolt action. Can’t remember where I read that, maybe misread?, but if level actions are allowed that opens up some doors for my next gun build. Love lever action rifles.

 

[sgt_zim]

Sorry for the ignorant question, new to Africa hunting, but I was under the impression lever acti0ns were not allow, only bolt action. Can’t remember where I read that, maybe misread?, but if level actions are allowed that opens up some doors for my next gun build. Love lever action rifles.

I think it sort of depends on your guide. 45-70 doesn't meet the energy requirements, where there are such, but it does meet the caliber requirement since it's the same as 458WM/Lott.

I haven't heard of a lot of guys doing that, but every now and again I do. Seems like there was 4 or 5 guys who went over together, all with Marlins that had been improved by Ranger Point Precision, within the last 4 or 5 years. As I recall, they were all shooting 540 gr Hammerheads from Garret or maybe the 500 gr from Buffalo Bore. I stand to be corrected on that, though.

 

[crs]

There are many more lever gun shooters hunting in Africa than you know; only a few bother to write hunt reports though. See pic at left? My DG PH had been out with lever guns before and he expected questions when the landowner was curious about my 1895 .405 WCF (.411) lever gun. One look at the loaded 400 grain 405 cartridge and he smiled and nodded OK. I did post a hunt story on this forum, but most of my friends do not go to the trouble.

 

[Scrumbag]

I would have thought that the 45/70 with heavy for caliber would lack the crunch.
The 300 grain bullet can be driven much faster and it has more energy than the 400 grain + Bullet.

It's funny isn't it, for getting max ME out of these straight wall cases they seem to very heavily favour going "light for chambering"

 

[Scrumbag]

There are many more lever gun shooters hunting in Africa than you know; only a few bother to write hunt reports though. See pic at left? My DG PH had been out with lever guns before and he expected questions when the landowner was curious about my 1895 .405 WCF (.411) lever gun. One look at the loaded 400 grain 405 cartridge and he smiled and nodded OK. I did post a hunt story on this forum, but most of my friends do not go to the trouble.

Lovely gun sir. Any chance of a link to the write up.

 

[Scrumbag]

If your action is strong enough wouldn't 450 Marlin data get you where you wanted to be?

 

[sgt_zim]

If your action is strong enough wouldn't 450 Marlin data get you where you wanted to be?

450 Marlin doesn't really outperform 45-70 if you hand-load.

If one wants extra performance out of a 45-70, the only real way to get there is with a Ruger #1 or a Browning/Winchester 1885 High Wall. Hornady shows loads for their 500 gr DGX/S up to about 1800 fps. That isn't too far south of a 458 WM.

 

[sgt_zim]

It's funny isn't it, for getting max ME out of these straight wall cases they seem to very heavily favour going "light for chambering"

Well, not entirely.

525 gr bullets I shoot out of my 45-70 are coming out at about 1625 fps. I can get right at 2100 fps with 300 gr bullets. There's more KE (not by a lot) in the 525 than in the 300. All of that extra mass, however, gives the heavier bullet about 30-35% more momentum. Momentum is the yardstick for penetration, not KE.

 

[crs]

scrumbag asked for a link to story of .405 and Cape Buffalo.
Ask and ye shall receive:
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/south-africa-cape-buffalo-with-1895-405.8266/
Enjoy
That 1895 .405 has taken a lot of game with 300 and 400 grain bullets. It is so much fun that I now have a Simson Suhl .405 double rifle.

And the road goes on forever and the party never ends!

 

[crs]

BTW, my .405 is not my elephant gun, that is my Miroku 1886 TD .45-90 with 26 inch octagon barrel. That story is not on this forum but was on Leverguns.com 10-12 years ago.

Preferred cape buff load of 450 grain Kodiak FMJ at 2150 fps MV hurts the game a lot more than the shooter.
400+ grain NF FPS and Punch bullets at 2000 fps shoot through ele heads and 300 grain Nosler PP at 2200 fps MV swat leopards right down; plains game never hear the sound of the shot. It is heavier and has a bit more recoil than the .405, but having it in the field does bring calm to the hunter.
More fun with a tracker to tote it until the action begins.

 

[Scrumbag]

450 Marlin doesn't really outperform 45-70 if you hand-load.

If one wants extra performance out of a 45-70, the only real way to get there is with a Ruger #1 or a Browning/Winchester 1885 High Wall. Hornady shows loads for their 500 gr DGX/S up to about 1800 fps. That isn't too far south of a 458 WM.

Ah understood.

So there's a kind of heirarchy in terms of increasing ME:

45-70 loaded to be suitable for everything
450 Marlin
45-70 hand loaded for strong actions

Thanks, learn something new everyday

Scrummy

 

[Scrumbag]

Well, not entirely.

525 gr bullets I shoot out of my 45-70 are coming out at about 1625 fps. I can get right at 2100 fps with 300 gr bullets. There's more KE (not by a lot) in the 525 than in the 300. All of that extra mass, however, gives the heavier bullet about 30-35% more momentum. Momentum is the yardstick for penetration, not KE.

Interesting.

I recently went through the process of getting my .44 mag lever action up to the Muzzle Energy requirements for hunting Roe, Fallow, Red and Sika in England. The "classic" / typical .44mag 240 gr bullet could seem to be got to the required 1,700ftlb with any published load data I trusted but could be achieved with 200-210 gr bullets loaded with H110 (Hodgdon do rifle and pistol data in .44mag and .357 mag) and it seems that you need a bit more speed to pick to the top end of the ME range with the straight wall "pistol" rounds - hence the comment. I suppose it depends what you are trying to match, ME for regs or Momentum for practical penetration.

Any interesting stuff and thanks Sgt. Zim!

Scrummy

 

[Scrumbag]

scrumbag asked for a link to story of .405 and Cape Buffalo.
Ask and ye shall receive:
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/south-africa-cape-buffalo-with-1895-405.8266/
Enjoy
That 1895 .405 has taken a lot of game with 300 and 400 grain bullets. It is so much fun that I now have a Simson Suhl .405 double rifle.

And the road goes on forever and the party never ends!

Thank you sir, I shall have a read with my morning coffee!

 

[Scrumbag]

BTW, my .405 is not my elephant gun, that is my Miroku 1886 TD .45-90 with 26 inch octagon barrel. That story is not on this forum but was on Leverguns.com 10-12 years ago.

Preferred cape buff load of 450 grain Kodiak FMJ at 2150 fps MV hurts the game a lot more than the shooter.
400+ grain NF FPS and Punch bullets at 2000 fps shoot through ele heads and 300 grain Nosler PP at 2200 fps MV swat leopards right down; plains game never hear the sound of the shot. It is heavier and has a bit more recoil than the .405, but having it in the field does bring calm to the hunter.
More fun with a tracker to tote it until the action begins.

That is lovely

 

[sgt_zim]

Ah understood.

So there's a kind of heirarchy in terms of increasing ME:

45-70 loaded to be suitable for everything
450 Marlin
45-70 hand loaded for strong actions

Thanks, learn something new everyday

Scrummy

loading manuals list 45-70 loads in 3 groups
1. trap door loads (pressure to about 18,00 CUP)
2. Marlin 1895/Win 1886 (pressure to about 27,000 CUP)
3. Strong action Ruger #1 and #3, Browning/Win 1885 (pressure about to 38,000 CUP)

Factory loads in 450 Marlin generally outperform factory loads in 45-70; as a matter of practicality, there's parity between the two cartridges when it comes to home-brew ammo.

450 Marlin pressures will go to about 42,000 CUP, but there is so little velocity gained by it that the difference between it and 45-70 hand-loads doesn't confer any practical advantage.

Most people will keep their 45-70 pressures to about 27-28K for their Marlins, but there is a body of evidence that indicates they can be pushed to 35-36K CUP and still remain safe.

Marshall Stanton, owner of Beartooth Bullets, asserts modern Marlins are safe in this territory. I use his load data (he's had it out there for almost 15 years). Google for Beartooth bullets 45-70 pile driver.

for the 525 gr I shoot. I don't push mine as hard as he says you can. I hit a sweet spot at 41 gr of RL-7, and that got me to 1625 fps. His max load for that bullet/powder combo is 44.3. Garret Cartridges is the same way - they have a 540 gr 45-70 load at around 1600 fps. Buffalo Bore cartridge company sells a 500 gr load that scoots along at about 1625, too. But Garret and Buffalo Bore are getting $60-$90 per box of 20.

 

[Scrumbag]

Sgt. Zim, you are a mine of info. Learning a lot this morning

 

[Fastrig]

Been wanting to get a 45-70 for a long time, just a great old lever action design. Don't know as I'd take it to Africa or not, might be fun, but thinking about putting one together like this....be great in bush type field conditions where under 100 yard shots are the norm.

https://www.recoilweb.com/marlin-custom-1985-lever-gun-142412.html

 

[crs]

WRT .45-70 in Africa: Article by a friend of mine:
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/modern-45-70-africa-pics/

 

[sgt_zim]

Mine's a stock 1895 GBL, 18.5" BBL and big loop, with laminate and a pistol grip (as opposed to the straight grip on the standard 1895). It holds 6 in the tube, standard 1895 holds 4.

It hits like Mjolnir - on both ends. Though I recently discovered that shooting it off of sticks is infinitely more pleasant than sitting behind it at a shooting bench.

I'm not sure I'd want to go as high as 42,000 on the pressure, though. The model 336 is a 30-30, after all. The external dimensions of 336 and 1895 are the same, and 45-70 is a much fatter cartridge than a 30-30. They had to trim steel from the inside in order to fit it in. 450 Marlin case is actually slightly narrower than a 45-70, which is why they can get away with slightly higher pressures than 45-70.

In all honesty, there isn't a great need to push the bullets THAT hard. 1400-1650 fps with well-constructed (or cast) heavies (405 and heavier) will easily dispatch anything you might ever shoot, provided you do your job. AFAIK, the twist hasn't changed since the cartridge was first introduced, and they were made to shoot a standard 405 gr lead or paper-patched lead bullet at about 1250 fps. Millions of American bison were killed with exactly that, and at astounding distances.