45-70 dangerous game?

[Tundra Tiger]

"Now I personally have no issue if one wants to hunt Buff with a 45-70 and his PH is on board with it. As long as everyone knows the risks and are patient enough for the perfect shot then fine. But let’s not start posting that the 45-70 is a better round for killing Buff than the 375 H&H or 450-400 is so some guy down the road can google something and he reads and believes this and puts himself in a bad position! We’re better than that here on AH!"

I think we are mostly in agreement. It is for the reason you provide above that I cringe when someone who has probably never even hunted with a .45-70 responds to one of these threads with a "Oh HELL no!" about whether or not a .45-70 can be effectively used on buffalo. Someone might come away with the impression it's simply impossible, based on a completely uninformed opinion, and that's just not true.

 

[CZDiesel]

"Now I personally have no issue if one wants to hunt Buff with a 45-70 and his PH is on board with it. As long as everyone knows the risks and are patient enough for the perfect shot then fine. But let’s not start posting that the 45-70 is a better round for killing Buff than the 375 H&H or 450-400 is so some guy down the road can google something and he reads and believes this and puts himself in a bad position! We’re better than that here on AH!"

I think we are mostly in agreement. It is for the reason you provide above that I cringe when someone who has probably never even hunted with a .45-70 responds to one of these threads with a "Oh HELL no!" about whether or not a .45-70 can be effectively used on buffalo. Someone might come away with the impression it's simply impossible, based on a completely uninformed opinion, and that's just not true.

A 45-70 can absolutely be used to take Buff, hell my PH wants me to bring my 405 and wack one lol
But of course he will be holding his 500 Jeff if things go wrong lol

 

[Tundra Tiger]

A 45-70 can absolutely be used to take Buff, hell my PH wants me to bring my 405 and wack one lol
But of course he will be holding his 500 Jeff if things go wrong lol

Mine had a .416 Rigby. Totally not needed. Both times. Happy enough he had it though.

You should totally take the .405...

 

[CZDiesel]

Mine had a .416 Rigby. Totally not needed. Both times. Happy enough he had it though.

You should totally take the .405...

Thinking about it! Loaded with 400gr Raptors of course!

 

[michael458]

Much of the appeal of 45/70 for many, is not so much the cartridge, but the rifles which come chambered in the 45/70.........I am talking the Lever Guns.

Many Americans grew up watching Cowboy and Western Movies, lever guns were the rifles of choice in those days. Many Americans grew up with "Grandpas" leading the way into the game fields with the trusted ole 30/30 or similar cartridges. Lever Guns I think are pretty much a part of American History and lifestyle. I love the lever guns and have many. If you are not an American, it might be difficult for you to understand this affection for the lever gun.

But make no mistake, when it comes to most all of my African experiences, many buffalo, hippo and elephant, it has been 99% or more, with bolt guns of .458 caliber to .500 caliber. Lions as well, and even leopard was .416. If I was advising a rifle/cartridge for these activities, it would be a bolt gun in at least 458 Winchester or equal, or above........ and even so, if you choose poor ass bullets, you will get poor ass results, so choose your Bullet wisely. Bullets do all the heavy lifting!

Lever guns are not for everyone, and shooters/hunters all have different likes and dislikes and prejudices. I do as well. I love bolt guns, lever guns, single shots like Ruger 1 and Winchester 1885s, and even ugly black semi guns. I have endeavored to enhance each cartridge and rifle with the very best of Bullet Technology, which in turn would enhance my success in any endeavor I might choose to embark upon with any choice of firearm or cartridge I might make for any particular mission. While I don't care anything about a Double Rifle, I spent one hell of a lot of time and energy to do the same for my Double Rifle Friends, and we were very very successful in our endeavors even for the Double guys! I don't and would never own a Double Rifle, it just does not appeal to me at all...... But for those that do, I am 100% in support of your adventures and will do everything I can to enhance your success. The CEB Bullets with the 4 bands were extensively tested in many calibers for barrel strain in Double Rifles, and designed to give the double rifles a bullet that will enhance the success of Double Rifle shooters without damage to the guns.

Back to the lever guns.......... Lever guns in 45/70 are not "The Greatest Buffalo Cartridge of All Time", but that does not mean they cannot be made at least "adequate" if not better than. We look at American History...... The demise of our American Bison was done with various .458 caliber cast bullets, some larger cases than 45/70, some done with larger calibers, but in comparison to todays modern 45/70 loaded with a good Brass Solid, were all inferior. And Millions of Bison were slaughtered with these inferior bullets! I even took two Bison myself with 45/70 and inferior cast bullets in 2005. WIth a 1886 Lever gun. Bison are not small animals, and they indeed are tough. Btu the two I took are dead as well, and made some of the best burger I ever had!

I took a black bear with this gun in California many years ago..... It was dog hunt, and I think goodness we treed the bear feet within the road, I did not have to carry this gun very far, a matter of feet...... LOL......Winchester 1886 45/70...... I used 405 Remingtons at that time, and the velocity was TOO FAST, bullet did break up. Fortunately levers are fast and I had plenty of them to work the bear over.

Another 1886 45/70 that I used on the Bison.........The bison took a lot of shooting too, levers are fast, my bullets were good, but not what is available today by any stretch.......

My Marlin buffalo gun........ also warthogs, giraffe and a killer Blesbok at 15 steps, yes Blesbok charged us and I dropped him frontal chest shot at 15 steps..... no lie. I guess he was insane or something........ I wonder if I can consider this gun a "Charge Stopper"?????? Well it did a number on that Blesbok! Perhaps 45/70 is a stopping cartridge after all.......? HEH

This is one of my 50 B&M Alaskans, M71 High Grade... used it on buffalo and hippo in 2011.

This is a Winchester M94 in 38/55........ the closest you will ever in your life that I will get to anything close to .375 caliber............ I took a Mt Lion in Utah back in the day with this one.......

We like our lever guns, they have their place like many firearms...... So don't discount them as useless relics of the past, they can be enhanced to accomplish the job if you do just a little research.......... Like many things in life, they have their limitations, seek to overcome those.

 

[Brian]

I am obviously on the side of the debate that feels that SD is not a reliable indicator of bullet penetration. I subscribe to the idea that the expanding bullet instantly changes shape and weight upon entering the animal and that the SD "math and science" are therefore not significant.
I place more importance on the stability of the bullet for deep and straight penetration.

Here is a link to a good description of this phenomenon, https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns/sectional-density-bullet-penetration-truths

Funny thing is, (to me) that I have been a believer of the SD concept for many years ( maybe more years than some of you have been hunting) and have only in the past few years gone kicking and screaming to the other side.

About the performance of the 45-70 on dangerous game.
Michael458, a recognized expert on terminal ballistics of big bore dangerous game bullets has posted some comprehensive info on premium bullets on this thread, including the .458 bullet.
It is great reading and I find middle ground there for all of us.

Some people, like me, resist new information if it is seems to run at cross purposed to our existing concepts. ( Oops, another theory. ) Brian

 

[Brian]

@Brian: be careful bringing up “facts” - some people don’t like them !

Oops, too late!

 

[Flbt]

Oops, too late!

Didn’t one of the magazine guys say in a article he shot through one buff and killed one on the off side? I think it was Brian Pearce ?
If you shot through and kill another one how much more penetration do you need?

 

[CZDiesel]

I am obviously on the side of the debate that feels that SD is not a reliable indicator of bullet penetration. I subscribe to the idea that the expanding bullet instantly changes shape and weight upon entering the animal and that the SD "math and science" are therefore not significant.
I place more importance on the stability of the bullet for deep and straight penetration.

Here is a link to a good description of this phenomenon, https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns/sectional-density-bullet-penetration-truths

Funny thing is, (to me) that I have been a believer of the SD concept for many years ( maybe more years than some of you have been hunting) and have only in the past few years gone kicking and screaming to the other side.

About the performance of the 45-70 on dangerous game.
Michael458, a recognized expert on terminal ballistics of big bore dangerous game bullets has posted some comprehensive info on premium bullets on this thread, including the .458 bullet.
It is great reading and I find middle ground there for all of us.

Some people, like me, resist new information if it is seems to run at cross purposed to our existing concepts. ( Oops, another theory. ) Brian

Didn’t one of the magazine guys say in a article he shot through one buff and killed one on the off side? I think it was Brian Pearce ?
If you shot through and kill another one how much more penetration do you need?

Ok then, PROVE IT!!! Kevin Robertson a huge supporter of Sectional Density as am I because, well it’s math!
But Kevin has no problem with proving his knowledge and reliance of SD for proper DG bullets and cartridges by actually filming and showing results!
So if you are that confident do the same and show all of us that 400gr 45-70 round at 2000 ftps doing what this 416 round does! Ah yes the 416 is the same ballistically as a 450-400!
Or better yet a 300gr 45-70 lol

 

[HankBuck]

Ok then, PROVE IT!!! Kevin Robertson a huge supporter of Sectional Density as am I because, well it’s math!
But Kevin has no problem with proving his knowledge and reliance of SD for proper DG bullets and cartridges by actually filming and showing results!
So if you are that confident do the same and show all of us that 400gr 45-70 round at 2000 ftps doing what this 416 round does! Ah yes the 416 is the same ballistically as a 450-400!
Or better yet a 300gr 45-70 lol

@CZDiesel: at some point do you think we can find a “Math equation” that will kill buffalo —-without any gun needed? Just show the Buff the Sectional Density numbers on a smart phone and it will “surrender”. That might end this Harvard level academic debate.

 

[gbflyer]

Ok then, PROVE IT!!! Kevin Robertson a huge supporter of Sectional Density as am I because, well it’s math!
But Kevin has no problem with proving his knowledge and reliance of SD for proper DG bullets and cartridges by actually filming and showing results!
So if you are that confident do the same and show all of us that 400gr 45-70 round at 2000 ftps doing what this 416 round does! Ah yes the 416 is the same ballistically as a 450-400!
Or better yet a 300gr 45-70 lol

What is your experience with a 45/70?

 

[michael458]

I am obviously on the side of the debate that feels that SD is not a reliable indicator of bullet penetration. I subscribe to the idea that the expanding bullet instantly changes shape and weight upon entering the animal and that the SD "math and science" are therefore not significant.
I place more importance on the stability of the bullet for deep and straight penetration.

Here is a link to a good description of this phenomenon, https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns/sectional-density-bullet-penetration-truths

Brian..... I had not seen nor heard of the article you posted, but like you, I concur 100%. With Expanding bullets, and or Trauma Inflicting bullets such as the Modern CNC Generation I and Generation II bullets like the Hammer and CEB Raptors, the only number that counts is "Terminal Sectional Density".... If you like to calculate Numbers.

The Sectional Density of an Expanding or Trauma Inflicting bullet that is setting on the shelf, or in the box they came in is useless and will remain the same until it is fired, and begins terminal penetration, then the SD changes dramatically.

There was some questions about SD back last July on another thread, here on AH. I went back to some of my older bullets dug out of various animals, mostly buffalo for this, since it was a .458 thread at the time. And I calculated the "Terminal Sectional Density" of a few .458 caliber recovered bullets, I am going to attempt to Copy/Paste that below;

Now, lets look at Expanding Premium Bullets and Compare Raptor Sectional Density, shall we?

First, Sectional Density Changes dramatically with a Trauma Inflicting or Expanding Bullet, once it starts terminal penetration. Its beginning SD means nothing, because that changes the millisecond that Terminal Penetration Begins......... As the Bullet Expands in the case of a Premium, Swift A, Woodleigh, North Fork, TSX........ the Sectional Density # continues to get lower than what it began as.

I just came out of my load room, we call it the Lab, and I measured and weighed actual bullets recovered from animal tissue. Weight and Diameter determines Sectional Density Right....... But you have to measure the Diameter of the Expanded Bullet to get a Terminal Sectional Density.....

1. 500 Swift A Frame 458 Lott 2270 fps Buffalo weight 493 grs Expanded Diameter .824 inches
Terminal Sectional Density .104

2. 450 gr Swift A Frame 458 B&M Buffalo various, 3 recovered Bullets I believe just at or around 2200 fps Weight 444 gr diameter .785 average.......
Terminal Sectional Density .103
Old Photo, terrible .......

3. 400 Swift A Frame 458 Winchester 2325 fps .800 expansion Diameter and retained weight of 385 grs...... Terminal Sectional Density .086

4. 500 Woodleigh Soft 2125 fps Buffalo retained weight 494 gr .902 expanded diameter...... Terminal Sectional Density .087

5. 420 CEB Raptor 458 B&M 2250 fps buffalo Retained weight 335 gr maximum terminal diameter (jagged points on front) .465 diameter
Terminal Sectional Density .221

I cannot get the Bold and Italics to turn off, it was not my intention to put #5 in bold.

As you see, the Raptors Terminal Sectional Density is over twice as large as any of the expanding premium softs. Could this explain its superior penetrative abilities?

Ok then, PROVE IT!!! Kevin Robertson a huge supporter of Sectional Density as am I because, well it’s math!
But Kevin has no problem with proving his knowledge and reliance of SD for proper DG bullets and cartridges by actually filming and showing results!
So if you are that confident do the same and show all of us that 400gr 45-70 round at 2000 ftps doing what this 416 round does! Ah yes the 416 is the same ballistically as a 450-400!
Or better yet a 300gr 45-70 lol

Not sure what the video says or shows, I do not subscribe to You Tube and was not able to watch it. I was able to pull it up, looked like a Hornady Commercial just from the looks of it.... But I honestly do not know what was shown. Or if it has an validity at all........ But I can show you some comparisons in penetration between 416 and the lowly 45/70s........ And again if you want to calculate numbers for Expanding/Trauma Inflicting bullets, you have to look at "Terminal SD".........SD don't change when they are sitting on the shelf..........

I did not see any mention of type of bullet, construction, material, nothing in the request to "Prove It", so that leaves it wide open for observation..........

And to be perfectly honest Sectional Density has even less meaning when it comes to "Terminal Penetration of Solids".............

550 gr Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ Sectional Density .375

325 gr CEB #13 SS Solid Sectional Density .221

There is NO DOUBT which bullet of the two above that I am taking to the field .................. Where is Sectional Density of any importance when you consider Solid Terminal Performance?

 

[Brian]

CZDiesel, The 450-400 NE 400 Grain bullets muzzle velocity is in the 2,000 fps- 2,100fps range.
The various 416 magnum that come to mind drive 400 grain bullets at 2,400 fps - 2,600.
I don't agree with you that "the 450-400 and the 416 are the same ballistically", and I don't se how it could be relevant.

You and I seem to differ in our approach, and there is quite a bit of daylight between our opinions. That's fine with me, you seem like an enthusiastic hunter and I wish you the best.
For me, this discussion with you is getting a bit beyond my style and will bow out. Brian

 

[akrifleman]

Brian..... I had not seen nor heard of the article you posted, but like you, I concur 100%. With Expanding bullets, and or Trauma Inflicting bullets such as the Modern CNC Generation I and Generation II bullets like the Hammer and CEB Raptors, the only number that counts is "Terminal Sectional Density".... If you like to calculate Numbers.

The Sectional Density of an Expanding or Trauma Inflicting bullet that is setting on the shelf, or in the box they came in is useless and will remain the same until it is fired, and begins terminal penetration, then the SD changes dramatically.

There was some questions about SD back last July on another thread, here on AH. I went back to some of my older bullets dug out of various animals, mostly buffalo for this, since it was a .458 thread at the time. And I calculated the "Terminal Sectional Density" of a few .458 caliber recovered bullets, I am going to attempt to Copy/Paste that below;

Now, lets look at Expanding Premium Bullets and Compare Raptor Sectional Density, shall we?

First, Sectional Density Changes dramatically with a Trauma Inflicting or Expanding Bullet, once it starts terminal penetration. Its beginning SD means nothing, because that changes the millisecond that Terminal Penetration Begins......... As the Bullet Expands in the case of a Premium, Swift A, Woodleigh, North Fork, TSX........ the Sectional Density # continues to get lower than what it began as.

I just came out of my load room, we call it the Lab, and I measured and weighed actual bullets recovered from animal tissue. Weight and Diameter determines Sectional Density Right....... But you have to measure the Diameter of the Expanded Bullet to get a Terminal Sectional Density.....

1. 500 Swift A Frame 458 Lott 2270 fps Buffalo weight 493 grs Expanded Diameter .824 inches
Terminal Sectional Density .104

2. 450 gr Swift A Frame 458 B&M Buffalo various, 3 recovered Bullets I believe just at or around 2200 fps Weight 444 gr diameter .785 average.......
Terminal Sectional Density .103
Old Photo, terrible .......

3. 400 Swift A Frame 458 Winchester 2325 fps .800 expansion Diameter and retained weight of 385 grs...... Terminal Sectional Density .086

4. 500 Woodleigh Soft 2125 fps Buffalo retained weight 494 gr .902 expanded diameter...... Terminal Sectional Density .087

5. 420 CEB Raptor 458 B&M 2250 fps buffalo Retained weight 335 gr maximum terminal diameter (jagged points on front) .465 diameter
Terminal Sectional Density .221

I cannot get the Bold and Italics to turn off, it was not my intention to put #5 in bold.

As you see, the Raptors Terminal Sectional Density is over twice as large as any of the expanding premium softs. Could this explain its superior penetrative abilities?



Not sure what the video says or shows, I do not subscribe to You Tube and was not able to watch it. I was able to pull it up, looked like a Hornady Commercial just from the looks of it.... But I honestly do not know what was shown. Or if it has an validity at all........ But I can show you some comparisons in penetration between 416 and the lowly 45/70s........ And again if you want to calculate numbers for Expanding/Trauma Inflicting bullets, you have to look at "Terminal SD".........SD don't change when they are sitting on the shelf..........

I did not see any mention of type of bullet, construction, material, nothing in the request to "Prove It", so that leaves it wide open for observation..........

And to be perfectly honest Sectional Density has even less meaning when it comes to "Terminal Penetration of Solids".............

550 gr Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ Sectional Density .375

325 gr CEB #13 SS Solid Sectional Density .221

There is NO DOUBT which bullet of the two above that I am taking to the field .................. Where is Sectional Density of any importance when you consider Solid Terminal Performance?

There are some exceptionally gifted and experienced hunters here. We all have to be a little careful about being respectful of that. They know what has worked in the past, and there was a set of rules created to ensure things worked.

The problem and source of frustration is, almost none are qualified engineers or forensic pathologists. That results in oversimplified and incorrect information turning into a rule, that people think they understand. What really blows my mind, is when an industry expert does significant long term studies, and a desk jockey argues it.

But, I guarantee you somewhere in Egypt 4000 years ago, the old 3rd Dynasty step pyramid builder was arguing with some young upstart 4th Dynasty true pyramid builder, explaining how the step pyramids had been successful for over 2000 yrs and didn't need reinventing.

 

[akrifleman]

Ok then, PROVE IT!!! Kevin Robertson a huge supporter of Sectional Density as am I because, well it’s math!
But Kevin has no problem with proving his knowledge and reliance of SD for proper DG bullets and cartridges by actually filming and showing results!
So if you are that confident do the same and show all of us that 400gr 45-70 round at 2000 ftps doing what this 416 round does! Ah yes the 416 is the same ballistically as a 450-400!
Or better yet a 300gr 45-70 lol

As an expert in the math, please provide the model that mathematically represents terminal ballistics, as we would all like to learn.

As a reminder, since terminal ballistics is the sub-field of ballistics concerned with the behavior and effects of a projectile when it hits and transfers its energy to a target. We all would be particularly interested in the plastic deformation, energy transfer, and terminal drag models, as mass and velocity are simple enough.

 

[HankBuck]

Brian..... I had not seen nor heard of the article you posted, but like you, I concur 100%. With Expanding bullets, and or Trauma Inflicting bullets such as the Modern CNC Generation I and Generation II bullets like the Hammer and CEB Raptors, the only number that counts is "Terminal Sectional Density".... If you like to calculate Numbers.

The Sectional Density of an Expanding or Trauma Inflicting bullet that is setting on the shelf, or in the box they came in is useless and will remain the same until it is fired, and begins terminal penetration, then the SD changes dramatically.

There was some questions about SD back last July on another thread, here on AH. I went back to some of my older bullets dug out of various animals, mostly buffalo for this, since it was a .458 thread at the time. And I calculated the "Terminal Sectional Density" of a few .458 caliber recovered bullets, I am going to attempt to Copy/Paste that below;

Now, lets look at Expanding Premium Bullets and Compare Raptor Sectional Density, shall we?

First, Sectional Density Changes dramatically with a Trauma Inflicting or Expanding Bullet, once it starts terminal penetration. Its beginning SD means nothing, because that changes the millisecond that Terminal Penetration Begins......... As the Bullet Expands in the case of a Premium, Swift A, Woodleigh, North Fork, TSX........ the Sectional Density # continues to get lower than what it began as.

I just came out of my load room, we call it the Lab, and I measured and weighed actual bullets recovered from animal tissue. Weight and Diameter determines Sectional Density Right....... But you have to measure the Diameter of the Expanded Bullet to get a Terminal Sectional Density.....

1. 500 Swift A Frame 458 Lott 2270 fps Buffalo weight 493 grs Expanded Diameter .824 inches
Terminal Sectional Density .104

2. 450 gr Swift A Frame 458 B&M Buffalo various, 3 recovered Bullets I believe just at or around 2200 fps Weight 444 gr diameter .785 average.......
Terminal Sectional Density .103
Old Photo, terrible .......

3. 400 Swift A Frame 458 Winchester 2325 fps .800 expansion Diameter and retained weight of 385 grs...... Terminal Sectional Density .086

4. 500 Woodleigh Soft 2125 fps Buffalo retained weight 494 gr .902 expanded diameter...... Terminal Sectional Density .087

5. 420 CEB Raptor 458 B&M 2250 fps buffalo Retained weight 335 gr maximum terminal diameter (jagged points on front) .465 diameter
Terminal Sectional Density .221

I cannot get the Bold and Italics to turn off, it was not my intention to put #5 in bold.

As you see, the Raptors Terminal Sectional Density is over twice as large as any of the expanding premium softs. Could this explain its superior penetrative abilities?



Not sure what the video says or shows, I do not subscribe to You Tube and was not able to watch it. I was able to pull it up, looked like a Hornady Commercial just from the looks of it.... But I honestly do not know what was shown. Or if it has an validity at all........ But I can show you some comparisons in penetration between 416 and the lowly 45/70s........ And again if you want to calculate numbers for Expanding/Trauma Inflicting bullets, you have to look at "Terminal SD".........SD don't change when they are sitting on the shelf..........

I did not see any mention of type of bullet, construction, material, nothing in the request to "Prove It", so that leaves it wide open for observation..........

And to be perfectly honest Sectional Density has even less meaning when it comes to "Terminal Penetration of Solids".............

550 gr Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ Sectional Density .375

325 gr CEB #13 SS Solid Sectional Density .221

There is NO DOUBT which bullet of the two above that I am taking to the field .................. Where is Sectional Density of any importance when you consider Solid Terminal Performance?

@michael458 - thanks for one of the Best posts I’ve ever read on AH, excellent information and more ballistic details then the FBI has on JFK !!

 

[akrifleman]

@michael458 - thanks for one of the Best posts I’ve ever read on AH, excellent information and more ballistic details then the FBI has on JFK !!

LOL I'm not sure the FBI knew that much for quite some time. I think the first time they really got after it was after that Miami shootout with the 9mm. After quite a few conclusions (that proved incorrect over time), they came out with the 10mm and then the 40S&W. Then a few years later they went back to the 9mm when they were shocked to learn the bullet did all the work, and new 9mm bullet construction changed all the rules. (Yes, good bit of sarcasm there).

Not to confuse, the 10mm is powerful. I'm referring to only their misunderstanding of terminal ballistics for the 9mm.

 

[HankBuck]

As an expert in the math, please provide the model that mathematically represents terminal ballistics, as we would all like to learn.

As a reminder, since terminal ballistics is the sub-field of ballistics concerned with the behavior and effects of a projectile when it hits and transfers its energy to a target. We all would be particularly interested in the plastic deformation, energy transfer, and terminal drag models, as mass and velocity are simple enough.

@akrifleman: actually I would NOT be interested “in the math” - my head already hurts from reading all of the data, formulas, and equations posted so far (I barely passed Algebra II in high school)….Einstein was NOT a Hunter and I’m Not a mathematician….@michael458 provided All the info I need (I can only absorb so much in one day)

 

[akrifleman]

@akrifleman: actually I would NOT be interested “in the math” - my head already hurts from reading all of the data, formulas, and equations posted so far (I barely passed Algebra II in high school)….Einstein was NOT a Hunter and I’m Not a mathematician….@michael458 provided All the info I need (I can only absorb so much in one day)

LOL. I do not want to go to med school for 10 yrs to truly understand forensics. I'll have to rely on misunderstanding over-simplified explanations. What can you do. I'll stick with engineering.

 

[HankBuck]

LOL I'm not sure the FBI knew that much for quite some time. I think the first time they really got after it was after that Miami shootout with the 9mm. After quite a few conclusions (that proved incorrect over time), they came out with the 10mm and then the 40S&W. Then a few years later they went back to the 9mm when they were shocked to learn the bullet did all the work, and new 9mm bullet construction changed all the rules. (Yes, good bit of sarcasm there).

Not to confuse, the 10mm is powerful. I'm referring to only their misunderstanding of terminal ballistics for the 9mm.

@akrifleman - I thought the reason the FBI switched BACK to the 9mm was because the majority of Agents could Not handle the recoil of the .40 S&W - couldn’t shoot them accurately and especially female agents. My understanding is that Now FBI Agents have the “option” to use either the 9mm or .40 S&W and the majority select the .9mm. If you have other specifics or insight - I would be interested but when I read this——-seemed to make sense because the recoil tolerance for average handgun shooters tops out at 9mm, .38 spl, … At least that was my understanding.