45-70 dangerous game?

[Huvius]

Bullets make all the difference. They are the only part of your shooting gear that hits the the animal.

I wish I thought of saying this - so true.
As my grandfather told me - "1939, I bought this wonderful Thomas Hardy Deluxe split cane fly rod - the fish didn't seem to notice"

 

[Doug Hamilton]

It is much like a parent telling a young kid that they can't do something, then that kid finds out for themselves that what the parent told them was impossible was indeed possible.

And sometimes the parent says, "Don't do that, you'll kill yourself!" Then the kid does it just to.prove he can. Then dies because it was a bad idea.

 

[Brian]

Addendum,

At the time, the unconventional CEB Safari Raptor bullet was a new idea and telling people about it also brought me considerable free advice from "experts" who knew nothing about it. I guess one more point should be added to this little cautionary tale, don't talk too much about what you are doing. Fools and children should never see a job half done.

 

[michael458]

North Fork 400 grain, .458 cal bullets.

The two on the left are not modified, the two on the right have their noses milled off a bit, resulting weight is 383 grains.

See how thick the jacket is? These bullets are tougher than boiled owl poop. They are actually too tough for the average size African undulate and any lion and apparently tend to penetrate right through, so North Fork modified this excellent bullet to expand more/easier for plains game and Lion, They called it the Lion Load.

Being designed to work at the highest .458 velocities I am confident that this modified bullet will be "good to go" in my 45-70 running at about 2,000 fps.

Also, check out the fine driving bands. Brian



View attachment 675135

Brian........ North Fork has been my favorite Premium Expanding for some time now, they are superb in all ways, for premium expanding.

Some years ago I did a few tests with the 350 North Forks, designed primarily for 45/70........at different velocities.

And the 400 North Forks at a bit more velocity.............

As a "Rule of Thumb", in my test medium, I like to see a minimum of 18 inches total penetration for Buffalo...... With your modified 400 NF at roughly 380 gr, and 2000 fps, you should be at that bottom side penetration. This will mean on Broadside shots, you will catch the bullet in the hide far side. You might not have a lot of wiggle room for more angled shots or heavy bone, so make that first one count, and followup with a good solid (CEB or North Fork) ..........

You also might consider the 350 North Fork Expanding CPS designed for 45/70...... that would give you a bit more wiggle room, or maybe try it on the second buffalo..... HEH........

I wanted a .500 cal so that I could use a bullet from the CEB .500S&W selection of bullets. This was all about an upcoming cape buffalo hunt and I selected a .410 grain .500 cal CEB Safari Raptor pistol bullet.

Readers please note that this load with a .410 CEB Raptor bullet running at just 1,920 fps.,

Each buffalo took two or three staggering steps when hit by the .500 cal CEB Raptor bullet and unceremoniously flopped to the ground and died. Both PH's watched in amazement as though they had just witnessed a train wreck

Let me inject just a bit of a correction please Brian, not much of one, small correction, the 410 Raptor is not a "Pistol Bullet" at all, as you know, All the B&M Series 500 caliber cartridges, are true .500 caliber. Of which I worked with CEB and North Fork extensively to design a complete series of .500 caliber bullets to work with all the various cartridges, which there are 6 different .500 caliber cartridges, designed for various rifles and actions. I designed the 450 CEB Solid and 410 Raptor for the 50 B&M, a 2.25 inch RUM case, based on a Winchester M70 WSM action, 18 inch barrels. After we learned so much about what these Raptors and Solids can do at lighter weights, I wanted a matching pair of CEBs that were some lighter, and run more velocity in the 2.25 inch case. Both of these have .600 Nose projections, which is way way too long for handguns. The 2.25 inch 50 B&M can run the 410 Raptors to 2375 fps in the 18 inch guns and the 450 Solids to 2346 fps and are absolute hammers on buffalo......

I used this bullet in the 500 B&M as well, this is a 2.5 inch RUM case, and it is based on the Winchester M70 Long action, I can use Talon Tips with the Raptors, and work through the magazine of the longer action. The 2.5 inch version is a personal cartridge of mine, not really part of the B&M Lineup, there are only two rifles built, I have both. It is a bit more capable, and it comes with an 18 inch barrel as well. It runs the 410 Raptors a tad over 2500 fps and the 450 Solids at 2440 fps. I slammed a buffalo point of shoulder left, bullet found at around 4 ft of total penetration, even after busting bone, and destroyed literally everything in between. The buffalo could only turn enough to show me the right shoulder, and I plowed a 450 Solid through it. End of story, almost......... I shot through a 12 inch + diameter tree with the 450 Solid before it hit the buffalo in the shoulder, and it still exited dead straight the other side of the buffalo as well........

 

[Boone66]

Tredmark, Good post.
People have a hard time thinking their way out of old, but popular concept.

This is my story about accepting new ideas.

Out of curiosity, and inspired by the B&M Rifles and Cartridges boys I took an old traditional cartridge case, 50-110 Winchester, that looked pretty good and I necked it down to true .500 cal from .510 cal. MGM made me a 24" barrel fro my TC Encore using my Mason chamber reamer.

I wanted a .500 cal so that I could use a bullet from the CEB .500S&W selection of bullets. This was all about an upcoming cape buffalo hunt and I selected a .410 grain .500 cal CEB Safari Raptor pistol bullet. ( Similar to what you did.)

During my load development I talked about it too much to strangers and paid for my sin by getting a lot of ill informed stupid advice from "expert" who didn't know Sh*t from shine-ola about it. Straight BS from peoples concepts that they stole from other people stupid concepts .

Most of this advice was about the TC Encore not being able to handle the pressure of the "big" cartridge. Of course, Like a fool, I listened too much to this dumb advice and chickened out half way through my testing and settles on a load that was accurate but way under the potential of the wonderful cartridge bullet combination. ( Never listen to these geniuses who have never gone ahead, on their own with a new idea, in their lives.)

Yes, I am ashamed to say, I soon became over concerned about the pressures of my experimental cartridge and stopped testing at the low velocity 1,920 fps and went to Africa in search of 3 cape buffalo.

Readers please note that this load with a .410 CEB Raptor bullet running at just 1,920 fps., was about like Tredmarks load mentioned above, and not much more than a .500S&W Pistol load.

Now please hear this, I hit each of the three buffalo broadside in the middle of their shoulder, not down in the heart like we are supposed to do. ( I was nervous and just went for the centre of shoulder mass to be safe, incase I flinched or made a mess of the shot somehow. ) The range of each one was under 50 yds.

Each buffalo took two or three staggering steps when hit by the .500 cal CEB Raptor bullet and unceremoniously flopped to the ground and died. Both PH's watched in amazement as though they had just witnessed a train wreck and they blurted out something like " What cartridge did you say that is?" "Is that a 500 NE".

I drag this story out once in a while when I am in one of those 'old man gives advice' moods.

People don't like independent thinkers. They will try to discourage you from doing it, especially on these hunting/shooting forums. Don't take them too seriously, like I did. They are seldom helpful,

Don't hunt dangerous game, or any animals for that matter, with poor, cheap bullets, like I have done for many years. Bullets make all the difference. They are the only part of your shooting gear that hits the the animal.

Thanks for allowing me to blow off a little steam. Brian

Isn't the encore rated at 60,000psi? I believe it's stronger then most doubles. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a cartridge that can't be shot on it.

 

[Boone66]

Well dang, I happen to have a 50 BMG barrel hanging out next to a No1 action...now, you guys got me thinking again...I like rimmed shells on single shots, a 50-120 suped up..hmmm

 

[Brian]

Michael, Thanks for the correction. It's important. The 410grain, .500 cal Raptor is a rifle bullet not a pistol bullet. A lot of terminal ballistics science goes along with that point as you discuss in your post. More that some of us can absorb in a single sitting and in my case even remember... chuckle.

The amount of bullet information in your single post above is mind blowing.
These bullets that you guys invented are brilliant, miles ahead of conventional bullets for efficiently taking down big dangerous quarry. The more I go on about you bullets on these forums the more I probably sound like a shill for both NF and CEB. It's not that way, Your bullets that are manufacture by NF and CEB are as good as it gets these days. That is just a fact.

I wish the best for those two manufactures but my fascination is with the independent R&D process that took place by You and Sam, over at least a decade while the rest of us were ruminating about SD, and other such irrelevant theories.

You guys developed a hunting bullet that is changing the bullet industry and DG hunting. ( Kudos to those in the bullet business who are getting with the program and producing better bullets. The big producers of bullets seen to still be more focused on the bottom line for their shareholders than their customers hunting dangerous game in the bush. ( Mmm... the name Hornady just flashed through my mind. )

Yes, the benefits to us hunters including our safety is top of mind. At my age the thrill of following up on a buffalo wounded by a mediocre bullet as the African sun sets at 6 pm, doesn't appeal to me. I would rather be riding back to camp on a Toyota bakkie at that time of day.

PS. I am still trying out different premium bullets for cape buffalo. If all goes as planned, in a couple of weeks from now my single shot .577 NE. with a 700 grain Peregrine Bushmaster bullet in it's chamber, and I will be some where in the Eastern Kalahari Desert. We will be shuffling along behind a PH and a tracker, trying to be as quit as an old man with a heavy rifle and a buggered foot can be while seeking a cape buffalo. Life is good. Brian

 

[Brian]

Isn't the encore rated at 60,000psi? I believe it's stronger then most doubles. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a cartridge that can't be shot on it.

Boone 66, Bless your heart. You are right old boy!!. I didn't know that until later. Case head thrust with a big fat case might be a bit of an issue and MGM barrels once said no to a .577 NE barrel saying the barrel OD was a worry. Thanks for your post. Brian

 

[Doug Hamilton]

@Muskox - agree and since there is No such thing as a “Best rifle” for Buffalo the .45-70 is likely near the “middle” regarding capability even though it may not be commonly used. I put much more credibility in PH’s that have recommended .45-70 and seen it used and also in other Hunters that have killed buffalo with .45-70 then “ballistic charts” quoted by those that read a lot but hunt a little. My PH liked the .45-70 for buff and I wish I used mine vs. the .470 NE I purchased just for my Safari and shot poorly with. Also, the asst. PH carried a Marlin lever action in .45-70 as his back-up rifle, my PH carried a .416 Rem Mag “push feed” bolt

I got a news flash for you. Just because a hunter chooses not to use a lever action does not mean that he does not hunt a lot or shoot a lot. A .45-70 is nowhere near the middle in capability for big, tough, dangerous game. It is about the equal e f a .30-06, which has also been used to kill buffalo and elephants It may work fine on precise shots but it would become problematic on a marginal hit or God forbid, the need to stop a charge. Grizzlies have been Killed with 9mm handguns. Does that make a 9mm a good gun to hunt big bears?

Of course, using a bigger rifle does not mean that you do not have to shoot straight. People that read but do not hunt or shoot a lot tend to make poor hits. Best not to.make judgements on experienced people that also read.

 

[HankBuck]

I got a news flash for you. Just because a hunter chooses not to use a lever action does not mean that he does not hunt a lot or shoot a lot. A .45-70 is nowhere near the middle in capability for big, tough, dangerous game. It is about the equal e f a .30-06, which has also been used to kill buffalo and elephants It may work fine on precise shots but it would become problematic on a marginal hit or God forbid, the need to stop a charge. Grizzlies have been Killed with 9mm handguns. Does that make a 9mm a good gun to hunt big bears?

Of course, using a bigger rifle does not mean that you do not have to shoot straight. People that read but do not hunt or shoot a lot tend to make poor hits. Best not to.make judgements on experienced people that also read.

@Doug Hamilton - if you like to read a lot then you could check ballistic charts. Most will show the 3600 ft lbs of energy from full power .45-70 loads far exceed .30-06 (by about 1000 ft lbs). Your comment about .45-70 “about equaI to .30-06” is not even close to accurate and makes me think you are looking at lower velosity .45-70 loadings commonly made so they can be used in older guns or for Cowboy Action shooting.
But we should both yield to those that PH for a living - and have direct experience, much more valuable then our opinion, ballistic charts, or the latest article in Outdoor Life.

 

[thriller]

I got a news flash for you. Just because a hunter chooses not to use a lever action does not mean that he does not hunt a lot or shoot a lot. A .45-70 is nowhere near the middle in capability for big, tough, dangerous game. It is about the equal e f a .30-06, which has also been used to kill buffalo and elephants It may work fine on precise shots but it would become problematic on a marginal hit or God forbid, the need to stop a charge. Grizzlies have been Killed with 9mm handguns. Does that make a 9mm a good gun to hunt big bears?

Of course, using a bigger rifle does not mean that you do not have to shoot straight. People that read but do not hunt or shoot a lot tend to make poor hits. Best not to.make judgements on experienced people that also read.

Doug you must remember if you build a special rifle and create a super hot load in your basement it’s “adequate” which is to say the only acceptable caliber for DG apparently

 

[Brian]

450-400NE .. 400 grain bullet .410 diameter bullet at 2,000 fps
45-70............ 400 grain bullet .458 diameter bullet at 2,000 fps

375HH........... 300 grain bullet .375 diameter bullet at 2,500 fps
45-70 ........... 300 grain bullet .458 diameter bullet at 2,500 fps

Just the facts .

 

[HankBuck]

450-400NE .. 400 grain bullet .410 diameter bullet at 2,000 fps
45-70............ 400 grain bullet .458 diameter bullet at 2,000 fps

375HH........... 300 grain bullet .375 diameter bullet at 2,500 fps
45-70 ........... 300 grain bullet .458 diameter bullet at 2,500 fps

Just the facts .

@Brian: be careful bringing up “facts” - some people don’t like them !

 

[Tom Leoni]

I take a very simple standpoint: it's the bullet and the necessary velocity that makes a cartridge adequate, not its designation. My (albeit somewhat antiquated) Hornady reloading manual says that in a .45-70 I can push a 500gr .458 bullet at 1,300 to 1,800 feet per second. The same bullet in a .458 Win Mag can travel between 1,950 and 2,200 fps. Still going by the Hornady manual, a 480gr .450 NE bullet can be pushed at 1,800 to 2,100 fps.

Whether those 200(ish) fps make a difference in reliably bringing down a large animal, which is usually taken at short ranges, is somewhat (but not totally) academic.

Bottom line: as many have attested here, plenty of dangerous game has been taken with the .45-70 with good bullets and a good load. I personally would just abide by the local laws and follow my PH's advice. In today's environment, African game is easier to take than some on this forum would have it, but it's that one pesky exception that can turn you and your entourage into a messy, scarlet smear on the ground.

 

[CZDiesel]

450-400NE .. 400 grain bullet .410 diameter bullet at 2,000 fps
45-70............ 400 grain bullet .458 diameter bullet at 2,000 fps

375HH........... 300 grain bullet .375 diameter bullet at 2,500 fps
45-70 ........... 300 grain bullet .458 diameter bullet at 2,500 fps

Just the facts .

You are right those are the facts! And those facts show that the 450-400 and 375 bullets in their respective weights are FAR superior to the 458 round that is going WAY to slow for such a light and short for caliber round to penetrate anywhere near what the 450-400 or 375 bullet will!
The 458 round no matter how it’s made is not going to penetrate as far as the 400 or 375 will when pushed to the same speed and in the same weight and bullet design! Those are FACTS!
I know you love to poopoo sectional density but FACTS are that SD is a mathematical equation just like jet propulsion is and it shows the dynamics of bullet weight to caliber that effects its length and penetration properties! Those are FACTS! It’s called math! And your math does not only add up when you say a 300gr 458 at the same velocity as a 300gr 375 will penetrate the same using the same bullet but it shows you don’t understand the FACTS or the math! So please stop posting uncorrected information because it could get someone killed!!! FACTS!

 

[HankBuck]

You are right those are the facts! And those facts show that the 450-400 and 375 bullets in their respective weights are FAR superior to the 458 round that is going WAY to slow for such a light and short for caliber round to penetrate anywhere near what the 450-400 or 375 bullet will!
The 458 round no matter how it’s made is not going to penetrate as far as the 400 or 375 will when pushed to the same speed and in the same weight and bullet design! Those are FACTS!
I know you love to poopoo sectional density but FACTS are that SD is a mathematical equation just like jet propulsion is and it shows the dynamics of bullet weight to caliber that effects its length and penetration properties! Those are FACTS! It’s called math! And your math does not only add up when you say a 300gr 458 at the same velocity as a 300gr 375 will penetrate the same using the same bullet but it shows you don’t understand the FACTS or the math! So please stop posting uncorrected information because it could get someone killed!!! FACTS!

@CZDiesel - i would not question your “math” or knowledge of sectional density (it exceeds my own) and even penetration tests in ballistic gel could support your point. The “could get someone killed!!!” Comment was a bit dramatic… we’re Not saving live here - just blogging and exchanging ideas and opinions.
I thought the comparisons previously posted between 450-400, .375, and .45-70 full power loads showed a close (Not exact) correlation and found it interesting. More importantly those PHs that may know a little about math but a lot about killing DG seem to generally support use of .45-70 for Buff. As someone else posted - up to the PH & Hunter do decide within the law - what to use

 

[Brian]

You are right those are the facts! And those facts show that the 450-400 and 375 bullets in their respective weights are FAR superior to the 458 round that is going WAY to slow for such a light and short for caliber round to penetrate anywhere near what the 450-400 or 375 bullet will!
The 458 round no matter how it’s made is not going to penetrate as far as the 400 or 375 will when pushed to the same speed and in the same weight and bullet design! Those are FACTS!
I know you love to poopoo sectional density but FACTS are that SD is a mathematical equation just like jet propulsion is and it shows the dynamics of bullet weight to caliber that effects its length and penetration properties! Those are FACTS! It’s called math! And your math does not only add up when you say a 300gr 458 at the same velocity as a 300gr 375 will penetrate the same using the same bullet but it shows you don’t understand the FACTS or the math! So please stop posting uncorrected information because it could get someone killed!!! FACTS!

ok

 

[CZDiesel]

@CZDiesel - i would not question your “math” or knowledge of sectional density (it exceeds my own) and even penetration tests in ballistic gel could support your point. The “could get someone killed!!!” Comment was a bit dramatic… we’re Not saving live here - just blogging and exchanging ideas and opinions.
I thought the comparisons previously posted between 450-400, .375, and .45-70 full power loads showed a close (Not exact) correlation and found it interesting. More importantly those PHs that may know a little about math but a lot about killing DG seem to generally support use of .45-70 for Buff. As someone else posted - up to the PH & Hunter do decide within the law - what to use

I would like to say I agree with you and I’m being overly dramatic about it when it comes to getting someone killed but I’m not!
I get that it’s just a discussion but when you start saying that a 45-70 is a superior killer on Buffalo than a 375 H&H or a 450-400 NE then it does start to lead into dangerous waters!
Not all Buffalo hunting is on open plains as we know and if you are in the tall grass or the thick brush of Zimbabwe things change real quick! You have to a round that’s capable of breaking down a Buff by being able to shoot through both shoulders and wreck everything in between. So we are speaking of very tough hide followed by 4” plus of scapula, another 2” plus of rib bone, another 3’ of dense muscle and soft tissue/organs, the back to another 2” plus of rib bone and then the 4” plus of scapula again! Over a foot of bone and three feet of muscle and soft tissue! Not an easy feat and why they are so hard to put down!
The 375 H&H and 450-400 NE have proven to do this reliably as have the 416’s and 458WinMags and above but the the light for weight and very short for caliber 45-70 bullet can’t do it!
So when you are in thick stuff or tall grass and you or mainly your PH has to sort out a wounded Buff then the risk of life increases significantly!
How many PHs and hunters have we read about that have been killed just this last year alone by Buff? So no it’s not being overly dramatic!
Now I personally have no issue if one wants to hunt Buff with a 45-70 and his PH is on board with it. As long as everyone knows the risks and are patient enough for the perfect shot then fine. But let’s not start posting that the 45-70 is a better round for killing Buff than the 375 H&H or 450-400 is so some guy down the road can google something and he reads and believes this and puts himself in a bad position! We’re better than that here on AH!

 

[HankBuck]

I would like to say I agree with you and I’m being overly dramatic about it when it comes to getting someone killed but I’m not!
I get that it’s just a discussion but when you start saying that a 45-70 is a superior killer on Buffalo than a 375 H&H or a 450-400 NE then it does start to lead into dangerous waters!
Not all Buffalo hunting is on open plains as we know and if you are in the tall grass or the thick brush of Zimbabwe things change real quick! You have to a round that’s capable of breaking down a Buff by being able to shoot through both shoulders and wreck everything in between. So we are speaking of very tough hide followed by 4” plus of scapula, another 2” plus of rib bone, another 3’ of dense muscle and soft tissue/organs, the back to another 2” plus of rib bone and then the 4” plus of scapula again! Over a foot of bone and three feet of muscle and soft tissue! Not an easy feat and why they are so hard to put down!
The 375 H&H and 450-400 NE have proven to do this reliably as have the 416’s and 458WinMags and above but the the light for weight and very short for caliber 45-70 bullet can’t do it!
So when you are in thick stuff or tall grass and you or mainly your PH has to sort out a wounded Buff then the risk of life increases significantly!
How many PHs and hunters have we read about that have been killed just this last year alone by Buff? So no it’s not being overly dramatic!
Now I personally have no issue if one wants to hunt Buff with a 45-70 and his PH is on board with it. As long as everyone knows the risks and are patient enough for the perfect shot then fine. But let’s not start posting that the 45-70 is a better round for killing Buff than the 375 H&H or 450-400 is so some guy down the road can google something and he reads and believes this and puts himself in a bad position! We’re better than that here on AH!

@CZDiesel - I don’t recall reading any posts that the .45-70 was “better” but I will go back and see what I missed — My PH never said it was better, just that it was a “good round for Buffalo” and he had seen “many taken with it”. His Asst. PH carried a .45-70 Marlin lever Guide gun, and he carried a .416 Remington. I have no statistics to cite about how many Buff have been killed with a .45-70 but also No stats on how many people were ‘wounded or killed’ attempting to shoot buff with .45-70. If we eliminated calibers just because they wounded buffalo and resulted in someone getting hurt —- they’d be No calibers left to choose from. I have no experiance that warrants anyone paying attention to Me and neither do You. Those that have a Lot of experience (PHs) seem OK with a .45-70 for Buff and those are the people I pay attention to. This would be a better discussion in person, over a beer and by a camp fire - after you Killed your buff with a .500NE and I killed mine with a .45-70….we could both argue “which is Deader”….we have damn near Beat-a-Buffalo-to-Death by continuing to talk about this And I am as much to blame for that as anyone !!

 

[CZDiesel]

@CZDiesel - I don’t recall reading any posts that the .45-70 was “better” but I will go back and see what I missed — My PH never said it was better, just that it was a “good round for Buffalo” and he had seen “many taken with it”. His Asst. PH carried a .45-70 Marlin lever Guide gun, and he carried a .416 Remington. I have no statistics to cite about how many Buff have been killed with a .45-70 but also No stats on how many people were ‘wounded or killed’ attempting to shoot buff with .45-70. If we eliminated calibers just because they wounded buffalo and resulted in someone getting hurt —- they’d be No calibers left to choose from. I have no experiance that warrants anyone paying attention to Me and neither do You. Those that have a Lot of experience (PHs) seem OK with a .45-70 for Buff and those are the people I pay attention to. This would be a better discussion in person, over a beer and by a camp fire - after you Killed your buff with a .500NE and I killed mine with a .45-70….we could both argue “which is Deader”

I agree with you and that’s why I said I have no problem with someone hunting Buff with a 45-70 as long as his PH was on board. No issues at all from me but @Brian did post multiple times it was a better killer on Buff and that’s just not true…
Hope everyone is enjoying our discussion