45-70 dangerous game?

[Tundra Tiger]

And a superb team ready if followups were needed, and all the work they do. Credit to them. I still wouldn't recommend it without being very dedicated to the proposition and practice time. But, the right bullet to match will do the job.

Perhaps https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=544 would be a good start. I wouldn't use most factory stuff. Wasn't designed for bone.

I put together my own. But that's pretty much SOP anyway.

 

[Brian]

It is a wonderful thing that you don’t need to penetrate deeply

Why do you say that?

 

[WAB]

]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]" data-quote="Brian" data-source="post: 0" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Why do you say that?

He’s referring to a little thing called sectional density. The conclusion you have drawn is gravely in error.

 

[Brian]

He’s referring to a little thing called sectional density. The conclusion you have drawn is gravely in error.

Wab, I am sorry but you and thriller are wrong about that. I assume that you are saying that large diameter bullets have poorer penetration on cape buffalo. Am I right?
SD theory is very misleading regarding terminal ballistics. That is a proven fact. The SD theory is proven to be generally outdated. ( please just research recent tests and discoveries on the subject.)

I hunt cape buffalo with a 50-110 , 410 grain flat nose bullet CEB, ay 1,920 fps MV. and .577 NE, 700 grain Peregrine Bushmaster bullet at 1,850 fps MV, and the penetration is excellent, usually the bullet makes it through the ribs on the far side.

One of the best places to get up to speed on the topic, other than actually hunting a lot of cape buffalo with different cartridges, is to read B&M rifles and cartridges. ( There are other excellent sources as well.)

B&M did extensive, focused R&D for nearly a decade on Africa and Australia buffalo and in their wet medium lab in the USA, when they developed what came to be know as the CEB line of dangerous game bullets. The main goal of their work was to maximize straight line penetration while creating a wide, permanent wound channel with big bore bullets. ( Their innovative Safari Raptor bullet work a bit differently than conventional bulltes. That's another story.)

The fruits of their labor is a huge gift to all us hunters if we want to have it. Some of the old theories and beliefs about hunting bullets terminal performance, have just not stood up under modern research.

Honestly, I don't emphasize this to belittle you or discredit you, or anybody. I have been preaching about bullet terminal performance because I am just a bullet nut.

I have been hunting large game animals since 1958 an in the last decade I have become very curious about the current developments in hunting bullets design especially for cape buffalo I love to talk about it and to pass on what I happen learned.
I can't take any credit for any of this. It all just intrigued me. I am the curious type and really got into studying everything that I could find on it.

I started out with Swift A-Frame bullets in my .375 HH for Africa hunting, then I stumbled across NorthFork SS expanding bullets before John sold the company to the good folks in Sweden. Next I gave CEB bullets a test drive on cape buffalo and I was hooked on high quality bullet and became an avid student of bullet terminal performance.

I know that, in my enthusiasm I come across as a P.I.A. at times. I assure you I mean nothing by it, I just roar over the top when I get talking about hunting bullets.

As I say my curiosity has led me to a good place in selecting hunting bullet for cape buffalo which is all that I hunt now.

Happy hunting to both of you, I wish you both the best, Brian

 

[thriller]

Why do you say that?

Wab, I am sorry but you and thriller are wrong about that. I assume that you are saying that large diameter bullets have poorer penetration on cape buffalo. Am I right?
SD theory is very misleading regarding terminal ballistics. That is a proven fact. The SD theory is proven to be generally outdated. ( please just research recent tests and discoveries on the subject.)

I hunt cape buffalo with a 50-110 , 410 grain flat nose bullet CEB, ay 1,920 fps MV. and .577 NE, 700 grain Peregrine Bushmaster bullet at 1,850 fps MV, and the penetration is excellent, usually the bullet makes it through the ribs on the far side.

One of the best places to get up to speed on the topic, other than actually hunting a lot of cape buffalo with different cartridges, is to read B&M rifles and cartridges. ( There are other excellent sources as well.)

B&M did extensive, focused R&D for nearly a decade on Africa and Australia buffalo and in their wet medium lab in the USA, when they developed what came to be know as the CEB line of dangerous game bullets. The main goal of their work was to maximize straight line penetration while creating a wide, permanent wound channel with big bore bullets. ( Their innovative Safari Raptor bullet work a bit differently than conventional bulltes. That's another story.)

The fruits of their labor is a huge gift to all us hunters if we want to have it. Some of the old theories and beliefs about hunting bullets terminal performance, have just not stood up under modern research.

Honestly, I don't emphasize this to belittle you or discredit you, or anybody. I have been preaching about bullet terminal performance because I am just a bullet nut.

I have been hunting large game animals since 1958 an in the last decade I have become very curious about the current developments in hunting bullets design especially for cape buffalo I love to talk about it and to pass on what I happen learned.
I can't take any credit for any of this. It all just intrigued me. I am the curious type and really got into studying everything that I could find on it.

I started out with Swift A-Frame bullets in my .375 HH for Africa hunting, then I stumbled across NorthFork SS expanding bullets before John sold the company to the good folks in Sweden. Next I gave CEB bullets a test drive on cape buffalo and I was hooked on high quality bullet and became an avid student of bullet terminal performance.

I know that, in my enthusiasm I come across as a P.I.A. at times. I assure you I mean nothing by it, I just roar over the top when I get talking about hunting bullets.

As I say my curiosity has led me to a good place in selecting hunting bullet for cape buffalo which is all that I hunt now.

Happy hunting to both of you, I wish you both the best, Brian

Again it is possible to do it, but there are way better tools for the job and it appears you don’t use a 45-70 for Buffalo either….. as I always say it’s your ass if you want a horn up it that’s your business.

No disrespect intended I just don’t believe this caliber is a good one when you have to hand load to get it to barely meet dg specs for the most part. Can you yes should you probably not

 

[Brian]

Hello again Wab,
I just noticed that on page 3 of this thread there are some posts by Micheal458 that we should include in orr discussion of terminal performance of the .458 bullet or any big bore bullet. Please look at his post on page 3, Wednesday of this thread for some excellent bullet info.

Michael458 is the "real deal". He is the primary researcher/innovator at B&M Rifles and Cartridges along with a guy named Sam Rose. ( Sam is also a true big bore man and is a millwright/ engineer type as well as an excellent buffalo hunter. He and Michael have hunted countless African and Australian buffalo. Michael alone has take well over 100 buffalo. Those guys inspected and recorded every kill for bullet performance and tissue damage. )

I am sure that you and "thriller" will appreciate Michael's stuff. He will never tell you this but he is a world leading expert in bullet terminal performance on large dangerous game.

I also noticed this morning that I never gave you guys any reason why SD numbers are not very reliable for predicting bullet penetration.

SD numbers are not so reliable for predicting Terminal performance.
One reason is that the expanding bullet changes as soon as it enters the animal and the SD values instantly change. The bullet may change shape, weight and/or direction. It may even tumble. One other thing that Michael458 discovered in his research is how much/often a round nosed bullet will change direction inside an animal, it may be heading straight the heart, then veer off sideways before it reaches the heart.

He proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the most significant factors in the killing ability of a bullet
are the design, shape, construction and material and of course diameter.
His team also confirmed as many others have that you can't rely on SD numbers to reliably predict bullet penetration.

Michael458 does not need me blowing my horn for him or speaking for his work. We have never met. As I say, we bullet aficionados (nuts) just appreciate what the B&M team has done for dangerous game hunters.

Brian

 

[Brian]

Again it is possible to do it, but there are way better tools for the job and it appears you don’t use a 45-70 for Buffalo either….. as I always say it’s your ass if you want a horn up it that’s your business.

No disrespect intended I just don’t believe this caliber is a good one when you have to hand load to get it to barely meet dg specs for the most part. Can you yes should you probably not

Thriller, Thanks for the post.

I was simply comparing the 45-70 with the popular .375 and 450-400NE, thats all I said. I took it that your responding comment was about SD. and penetration. Did I get that wrong? (You said, "It's wonderful thing they don't need to penetrate deeply". I didn't understand why you said that. so I asked. Then Wab answered for you, saying that you were referring to "...a little thing called SD."
Have I got that right?

I have found that the 45-70 with a good load will kill buffalo better/quicker than the ever popular 375HH and the beloved 450-400 NE, regardless of popular opinion. ( Opinions are not always facts.)
One cartridge that I sure don't use for cape buffalo anymore is the .375HH and I have two of them!


By the way, are you not a hand loader? Wow.

A big advantage of hand loading is that one can load superior bullets that are uncommon in factory ammo and of course you can usually tailor you cartridge for a bit better accuracy.

Interesting, I don't hear of any serious big game hunters that don't hand load.
But if you don't shoot much you can sure save some initial expense on loading equipment by not getting into hand loading. I know it is not for everybody.


What cartridge do you like to hunt cape buffalo with these days? I would like to hear about you bullet of choice too.
As I mentioned somewhere here, I use both a 50-110 Winchester and .577 NE lately with CEB and Peregrine BushMaster bullets for cape buffalo, with a decent shoulder shot one can expect complete penetration and a DRT kill.

Those big bores are sure satisfying to hunt cape buffalo with, however at my age a rifle over 11lbs is kinda heavy to carry.
I go for 6 cape buffalo in three weeks and if there are many long walk/stalks I am going get some young guy to carry my 14 lb .577NE for me. Getting old is not for sissies.

Cheers, brian

 

[thriller]

Thriller, Thanks for the post.

I was simply comparing the 45-70 with the popular .375 and 450-400NE, thats all I said. I took it that your responding comment was about SD. and penetration. Did I get that wrong? (You said, "It's wonderful thing they don't need to penetrate deeply". I didn't understand why you said that. so I asked. Then Wab answered for you, saying that you were referring to "...a little thing called SD."
Have I got that right?

I have found that the 45-70 with a good load will kill buffalo better/quicker than the ever popular 375HH and the beloved 450-400 NE, regardless of popular opinion. ( Opinions are not always facts.)
One cartridge that I sure don't use for cape buffalo anymore is the .375HH and I have two of them!


By the way, are you not a hand loader? Wow.

A big advantage of hand loading is that one can load superior bullets that are uncommon in factory ammo and of course you can usually tailor you cartridge for a bit better accuracy.

Interesting, I don't hear of any serious big game hunters that don't hand load.
But if you don't shoot much you can sure save some initial expense on loading equipment by not getting into hand loading. I know it is not for everybody.


What cartridge do you like to hunt cape buffalo with these days? I would like to hear about you bullet of choice too.
As I mentioned somewhere here, I use both a 50-110 Winchester and .577 NE lately with CEB and Peregrine BushMaster bullets for cape buffalo, with a decent shoulder shot one can expect complete penetration and a DRT kill.

Those big bores are sure satisfying to hunt cape buffalo with, however at my age a rifle over 11lbs is kinda heavy to carry.
I go for 6 cape buffalo in three weeks and if there are many long walk/stalks I am going get some young guy to carry my 14 lb .577NE for me. Getting old is not for sissies.

Cheers, brian

You got the last word congrats

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

@Safari Dave - agree with some of your post - except the ridiculous “elephant…can be killed w/.22lr”. NO, it can’t and Never has been…(unless shot in the eye, dies of infection in a month?) but I get you’re attempted point.

Wow! I wish I knew everything that ever was...

I have read of two elephants, actually four that have been killed wih two-two's or .22 Long Rifles for us Americans.

1. A British gentleman (man of some means) in British East African had killed an elephant with a .22 shot through the ear canal. When telling this other gentlemen challenged him to show them. Which he did.

2. A poacher was caught with elephant parts. The game warden only found a .22 which the poacher admitted was the killing weapon. Needless to say no one believed him. In court the poacher told the judge how he accomplished the big kill. He shot at close range slipping a bullet between ribs to puncture the elephant’s heart. The elephant hardly noticed and meandered away. The poacher followed and eventually the elephant bled out and died. The judge like the "other gentlemen" in the account above told the poacher to show the court. That he did for another elephant.

That makes four dead elephants by .22's. I don't have these references handy and am not going to spend an hour to find them. If anyone doesn't believe the above accounts, that's okay. Maybe they were made up, maybe... Or maybe there are those who for many years have done the seemingly impossible.

Back to the OP's subject,
Yes, a 45-70 with the right loads could kill buffalo, elephant, and so on. For the lever action fans, go for it!
Me, for elephant I'll stick with a .458, .416, of in a pinch a .375. And of course if a loaner rifle a .404!

 

[Tundra Tiger]

"Yes, a 45-70 with the right loads could kill buffalo, elephant, and so on. For the lever action fans, go for it! Me, for elephant I'll stick with a .458, .416, of in a pinch a .375. And of course if a loaner rifle a .404!"

Bingo. Succinctly and well stated Mr. Ouellette.

 

[HookMeUpII]

I remember these discussions about 15-16 years ago on the forums (not necessarily this one). These always seem to be lively. This one seems to be more tame than most.

I have nothing to add other than Turnbull made some big-bore lever guns. Hefty price tag but they sure look nice. I watched an episode where Tony Makris took a buff with a 475 Turnbull.

 

[Brian]

You got the last word congrats

Thanks thriller, our discussion went well. I learned something and look forward to reading your informative posts to come. Brian

 

[HankBuck]

Wow! I wish I knew everything that ever was...

I have read of two elephants, actually four that have been killed wih two-two's or .22 Long Rifles for us Americans.

1. A British gentleman (man of some means) in British East African had killed an elephant with a .22 shot through the ear canal. When telling this other gentlemen challenged him to show them. Which he did.

2. A poacher was caught with elephant parts. The game warden only found a .22 which the poacher admitted was the killing weapon. Needless to say no one believed him. In court the poacher told the judge how he accomplished the big kill. He shot at close range slipping a bullet between ribs to puncture the elephant’s heart. The elephant hardly noticed and meandered away. The poacher followed and eventually the elephant bled out and died. The judge like the "other gentlemen" in the account above told the poacher to show the court. That he did for another elephant.

That makes four dead elephants by .22's. I don't have these references handy and am not going to spend an hour to find them. If anyone doesn't believe the above accounts, that's okay. Maybe they were made up, maybe... Or maybe there are those who for many years have done the seemingly impossible.

Back to the OP's subject,
Yes, a 45-70 with the right loads could kill buffalo, elephant, and so on. For the lever action fans, go for it!
Me, for elephant I'll stick with a .458, .416, of in a pinch a .375. And of course if a loaner rifle a .404!

@Mark A Ouellette - I would Not doubt You - if YOU claimed to have killed elephant with a .22 (I know they’ve killed Grizz w/head shots) but I have doubts about that .22lr = 4 elephant stories. If true - I might need to buy some of that .22lr ammo he was using….guessing great handloads, a poison tip, elephant died after 37 years of tracking?

 

[akrifleman]

@Mark A Ouellette - I would Not doubt You - if YOU claimed to have killed elephant with a .22 (I know they’ve killed Grizz w/head shots) but I have doubts about that .22lr = 4 elephant stories. If true - I might need to buy some of that .22lr ammo he was using….guessing great handloads, a poison tip, elephant died after 37 years of tracking?

I've shot wolves at point blank range, and didn't have the round get to the other side on three occasions.

I've also heard that same story, but it was a farmer over a bet. Please cite sources please. I'd like the link to the official government court case.

 

[HankBuck]

I've shot wolves at point blank range, and didn't have the round get to the other side on three occasions.

I've also heard that same story, but it was a farmer over a bet. Please cite sources please. I'd like the link to the official government court case.

@akrifleman - lots of good stories and tall tales but I doubt it. I shoot over 200 squirrels each year with .22lr and on at least 25% of them the bullet does NOT Exit !! That’s on a 14oz soft skinned furry squirrel and shot at 15 to 35 yrds..

 

[uplander01]

On one trip I took to Mozambique I was in quite a precarious situation twice with lions. I’ve never hunted lions but I’m guessing that they are easier to put on the ground than a buffalo….but after being in that situation, it would be hard to imagine a better cqb lion rifle than a lever action 45-70 with a good 400 grain load and 7-8 tries

 

[pilar]

Probably 100 threads on this.

Search function is very helpful

Yes , definitely!
but common sense had short term memory, only 45-70 that might ( a big might at that)
That can handle a very hot special loaded bullet is the #1 ruger
Imo you are boarding mentally insane trying to hunt dangerous animals with a weapon like a lever action 45-70 or larger caliber pistol
I have multiple bad experiences with 45-70 on hogs and cattle
1. Saw a guy shoot a hog with a lever action 45-70 at point blank and it only broke one shoulder and lodged under the ribs other side , I shot the same hog with a 300wm and it broke the shoulder passing through the lungs, guts and broke the hip .
#2 my uncle shot a rogue range bull which proceeded to run off after he shot it in the shoulder at 20-30 yards, I finished it off with a .243win and a head/ ear hole shot 2 days later, the 4570 was the size of a silver dollar and lodged in the broken bone
The factory loaded ammo and the newer lever action rifle with 16-18 inch barrel would be a fatal mistake imo on dangerous situations with bear , or African DG
It probably would be good on a leopard @ 50-60 yards, buffaloes never

 

[HankBuck]

Yes , definitely!
but common sense had short term memory, only 45-70 that might ( a big might at that)
That can handle a very hot special loaded bullet is the #1 ruger
Imo you are boarding mentally insane trying to hunt dangerous animals with a weapon like a lever action 45-70 or larger caliber pistol
I have multiple bad experiences with 45-70 on hogs and cattle
1. Saw a guy shoot a hog with a lever action 45-70 at point blank and it only broke one shoulder and lodged under the ribs other side , I shot the same hog with a 300wm and it broke the shoulder passing through the lungs, guts and broke the hip .
#2 my uncle shot a rogue range bull which proceeded to run off after he shot it in the shoulder at 20-30 yards, I finished it off with a .243win and a head/ ear hole shot 2 days later, the 4570 was the size of a silver dollar and lodged in the broken bone
The factory loaded ammo and the newer lever action rifle with 16-18 inch barrel would be a fatal mistake imo on dangerous situations with bear , or African DG
It probably would be good on a leopard @ 50-60 yards, buffaloes never

@pilar - any Marlin Lever Action made after 1990 handles Full Power .45-70 loads and they will handle any animal smaller then Elephant —-shooting full power loadings and hard cast bullets ie: Buffalo Bore ammo and some other brands. They make loadings with 350 - 405 gr hard cast delivering 3600 ft lbs of energy, penetrate deeply and of course leave a Big hole. While I’ve only killed Bear & deer with them my PH in TZ had guided many clients for Buffalo and thought they were a good choice. Still, a bad shot is A BAD SHOT and nothing makes up for poor bullet placement or using a “soft” lower power load ie: cowboy action/Remington Yellow & Green box ammo (good for bowling pins only). Only poor shooting or poor ammo selection limits the .45-70.

 

[uplander01]

Buffalo are a very tough animal. I agree with most on here, there are better choices than a 45-70 for buff. That being said, I worked for a guy named Ed Stevenson for a spring back in early 2000’s can’t remember exact year, but that fella arguably had more experience killing giant bears than any other human on earth. All he used was lever guns, 375 scovill, 450 Alaskan, and 45-70, seems like there was another medium 40 in there too. We actually got into a very interesting conversation around the campfire one night about this topic ….after that conversation I believe a big lever gun with proper hand loads is quite capable. As the conversation continued one glaring point he kept making was rapidity of follow up shots, a critical element in thick brush with big toothy critters in particular. iMO, a very angry and adrenaline infused bull Cape buffalo can’t really be compared to other game in general, they are built like a tank and when they decide to come it’s with a different level of determination.

So the original question, could you use a 45-70 on buff, probably so, but if you have a 416 or 458 in your arsenal, that’s probably a better choice.

 

[akrifleman]

Yes , definitely!
but common sense had short term memory, only 45-70 that might ( a big might at that)
That can handle a very hot special loaded bullet is the #1 ruger
Imo you are boarding mentally insane trying to hunt dangerous animals with a weapon like a lever action 45-70 or larger caliber pistol
I have multiple bad experiences with 45-70 on hogs and cattle
1. Saw a guy shoot a hog with a lever action 45-70 at point blank and it only broke one shoulder and lodged under the ribs other side , I shot the same hog with a 300wm and it broke the shoulder passing through the lungs, guts and broke the hip .
#2 my uncle shot a rogue range bull which proceeded to run off after he shot it in the shoulder at 20-30 yards, I finished it off with a .243win and a head/ ear hole shot 2 days later, the 4570 was the size of a silver dollar and lodged in the broken bone
The factory loaded ammo and the newer lever action rifle with 16-18 inch barrel would be a fatal mistake imo on dangerous situations with bear , or African DG
It probably would be good on a leopard @ 50-60 yards, buffaloes never

Modern 45-70 levers can handle the Buffalo Bore / CEB loadings.

The choice of bullet is INSANELY IMPORTANT. The enormously important key IS NOT *most* factory ammo, it is DG ammo. It cannot be understated we are talking DG ammo.

I'm only aware of a single factory loading from Buffalo Bore (sorry if there are others), or buy CEBs and roll your own. Factory ammo can blow up on a hog; a CEB will take an texas heart shot and leave the chest. Factory 45-70 loadings go from trapdoor through JHPs, flex tips, and tons of stuff in between.

Quite a few experts (who have weighed in here) have shot far more DG than I, and have done true postmortems with these DG solids. They work without caveat. My own CEBs in the handgun going 500 fps less have crunched through everything, including the Buff I posted earlier, a large giraffe, moose, several bears, etc... I wouldn't try that with a flex tip or any other 45-70 ammo.

I absolutely believe your 45-70 experience with any other loadings. I've seen it first hand when something off the shelf, instead of dedicated DG ammo is used. Not hard cast, not flex tips, not JHP... DG solids.