45-70 dangerous game?

[Tundra Tiger]

for what its worth i have shot 4 brown bears with it. works pretty good on them, but, 200 yards is a pretty long poke at any brown bear with any rifle.

Totally agree.

 

[Certus]

I think that with the proper bullet and load the old 46-70 would be perfectly fine on a DG hunt.

It would be no different than those who choose to use a pistol, and I believe that it would be a lot more effective.

There are those on here that believe that nothing smaller than a 20mm cannon should be used. But if you know the capabilities and wait for that perfect broadside shot it should work quite well.

I mean..the nitro express cartridges are hitting 125+ years young now..

 

[michael458]

It all depends on the bullet and how much velocity can you get. I load for a friend’s 450 NE double. He has a shoulder injury and can’t take full recoil. For his softs I load 295gr. Cutting edge safari raptors, and for solids I use 325gr. Safari solids at 2150 fps. To date he has killed 4 Cape buffalo and a 60 lb. Elephant. If you’re 45-70 is strong enough for that bullet and velocity, then I seriously doubt the animal will react any differently because of the case you used. By the way, there was no tracking required for any of these animals. With this type of bullet, sectional density means nothing. And don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

Very excellent Lance......... Impressive as well. The 325 Lever Solid can be pushed to 2100 fps and stay under 45000 PSI which is fine with the Marlin lever guns, you can push that a little more with a Winchester 1886.

As @Tundra Tiger has shown, the 325 Lever Solid is more than adequate for buffalo. You poke a .458 caliber hole in the heart they are not going far, and will be just as dead as one taken with a far more considerable cartridge, dead is dead......... Are there limitations? Of course there is. One limits and deprives themselves of "Caliber" when they choose something as useless as a 375 whatever! I will take a 45/70 with CEB Solids every day of the week over something as useless as a 375 anything! Caliber counts when it comes to buffalo!

No. Not enough gun. It is fun for "wannabee's" but not anyone with a centigram of sense would use it on DG.

Yeah, I get it, I am still struggling to be somebody myself. Having retired with only 125-140 buffalo both cape and Aussie under my belt, I am not sure I will ever be able to get out of the wannabee class.

In 2002 I carried a Marlin 45/70 to Zimbabwe, primary was a Winchester M790 458 Lott and we were slamming a few elephants with it. I had the little Marlin along to play with, and in those days we were very short on decent bullets suitable for 45/70s. I was shooting a 425 gr Cast Performance at 1900 or so fps. My PH at the time loved the little gun and would do nothing but have us try it on buffalo, I did not have all that much confidence in the bullet. To make a longer story shorter, against my better judgement he had me take a glancing shot on the shoulder of a buffalo about 35 yards out, I told him, he did not listen, and what is the saying "PH is always Right", right? Well, crap, the bullet glanced, did not penetrate the shoulder and we had a problem. We waited long enough for the herd to move on, and I took the bull just behind the shoulder and he went 20 steps and fell over stone cold! I had enough gun, I just did not have enough bullet!!!!!!

You see, "The Bullet does ALL the Heavy Lifting"............... It is all about the bullet!

Many of us love the lever guns, I am one of those, however, my primary will always be a Winchester M70 in .458-.500 caliber.

After the design of the CEB Safari Solids was complete, most of those with a .600-.700 nose projection, I wanted a lever solid, in both .458 caliber and .500 caliber for my rifles. We shortened the nose projection of the lever solids so they would function in the lever guns, we did a 325 and a 400 gr lever solid in .458 caliber, and I did 375 and 405 in the .500s........... I never did make it back to the field with the 45/70s, but had a few guys use the 400 Solids at 1850 fps on buffalo with outstanding success, heart shot, buffalo goes 20-30 steps, stone cold dead........ Of course these exit broadside, and have enough penetration to take more angled shots as well...........

Later in 2013 I took my 50 B&M Alaskan loaded with 405 Lever Solids at 2120 fps to Zimbabwe where I took buffalo and hippo with it..........

I was getting 5 ft plus penetration with the .500s.......... I keep hoping maybe one day I will grow up and be somebody.......... HEH.........

Being a numbers guy and believing in Sectional Density I would opt for the heaviest bullet I could get to shoot well, except for maybe the CEB bullets.
@Bandera

Sectional density, when we speak of solids mind you, is the the very last Factor of 8 in determining total terminal performance, depth of straight line penetration, and stability.

#8 Sectional Density
Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............

The previous 7 factors have more effect and importance in terminal performance than simple SD. Here is an example to show this............

SD of a 550 gr .458 caliber bullet is .374. The SD of a 325 gr .458 caliber bullet is .221.

Now, a few years ago, no one in their right mind would recommend a SD of .221 for animals such as elephant, buffalo or hippo! It was just stupid. But then when real science comes along, and inserts itself into old conventional beliefs, sometimes it really upsets the apple cart.................

Is the 45/70 the Ideal Buffalo Cartridge? Of course not, but that does not mean it is totally inadequate by any stretch. Choose the proper bullets that are available today, and this will enhance your 45/70 to levels never heard of before, and change it into a totally different cartridge than what is written in "The Books" years ago........... And, with this in mind, you can also enhance what you would consider buffalo capable cartridges as well. But what you cannot do, even with the very best of Bullet Tech, is turn a .375 anything into a .458 +.......... this miracle has not been achieved in my lifetime, and likely to never be achieved.

 

[dogcat1]

What about…???
Bow Hunting?
Handgun Hunting?
Black Powder Express Rife Hunting?
And the list goes on.

We celebrate someone when they write a report on using a 150 year old BPE rife and retuning the rife back to Africa for its intended purpose.

A 45-70 is more than capable with the right load and the right shot placement. Is there better choices, yes. Is there a better choice than the 375 H&H that we all holding to such high standards, yes the 416 Rigby and so on.

I have seen a lot of very capable men take a lot of animals with not so capable cartridges. On the other hand I have seen a lot of “so called men” have trouble with taking animals with very capable cartridges.

Know your rifle.
Know your cartridge.
Know yourself.
And know your own limitations!

By the way I personally think bow hunting DG is one of the most inhumane ways to take an animal and just plan stupid.

Agree 100%

 

[dogcat1]

The .45/70 was never intended to be a big-game cartridge.

It just "filled the bill" for a while until another militarily cartridge came along for the U.S.A.

The .30-40 Krag had a short run.

Then, it was the .30/06 Springfield....

And, the USA hasn't won a war since we quit using the .30/06...


Just saying...

You are 100% correct.
The 30-40 Krag is an antique as is the 45-70, 45-whatever else. They are fun to shoot but not for DG. Yes you can kill a buff with one, but so do poachers shooting home made lead balls our of industrial metal tubing made into a gun of sorts. That does not mean they should be used that way. I Kabar knife will cut but I don't want a surgeon taking out my appendix with one. Does it "work" ? Yes, a 45-70 propels a lead or copper bullet out of the barrel of a gun at speed. Is it powerful, not really, in comparison to better options.

I still do not get it. I am stunned at why anyone would think this is a good option when there are better options.

 

[uplander01]

45-70 can mean a lot of things, I for one wouldn't hesitate to use for example the buffalo bore 430 super hard cast flat meplate solid at 1925 fps on buffalo or anything else big,...couple that with incredibly fast follow up shots, whats not to like about it. That being said, I'm probably never taking a lever gun to africa....too many other good choices I guess.

 

[Just a dude in BC]

I talked to Craig Boddington about this very question. I was considering taking a Ruger No 1 for Cape Buffalo. I had worked up a load with 500 gr Hornadys and its ballistics were not far off a 458 Win Mag and Mr Boddington's opinion was that with the strength of the Ruger action, proper bullet and placement it would be fine. I never did use it for Cape Buffalo but it sure ventilated a bull moose.

A buddy and me both used Ruger no.1's on cape last summer. Mine in 500ne, his in 416 rigby. Though you only get the one shot, I find that the strength of a no.1 action is almost a cheat code! We did a lot of load dev together, and found that our shoulders were giving out long before we could find any issues with the gun accepting hotter loads.

I was able to get my 500ne to shoot 600gr NFs to 2250 before I stopped.
His 416 was getting 400gr NFs to just shy of 2600 when he stopped.

In both cases there were no pressure signs on the guns or brass. On our shoulders was another story. So using a no.1 in 45-70 where you are reloading I have no doubt you could get something like a 450/480gr solid or cup point solid up to a velocity where it would completely penetrate a buff on a broad side.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

A buddy and me both used Ruger no.1's on cape last summer. Mine in 500ne, his in 416 rigby. Though you only get the one shot, I find that the strength of a no.1 action is almost a cheat code! We did a lot of load dev together, and found that our shoulders were giving out long before we could find any issues with the gun accepting hotter loads.

I was able to get my 500ne to shoot 600gr NFs to 2250 before I stopped.
His 416 was getting 400gr NFs to just shy of 2600 when he stopped.

In both cases there were no pressure signs on the guns or brass. On our shoulders was another story. So using a no.1 in 45-70 where you are reloading I have no doubt you could get something like a 450/480gr solid or cup point solid up to a velocity where it would completely penetrate a buff on a broad side.

On my 2... I used a 325 grain brass solid that left my 18 inch barrel at something like 1900 fps - I don't remember the exact velocity. One was a frontal shot; the bullet was recovered from the back of a hind quarter. The other was a broadside running shot. It broke ribs on both sides and was just under the skin on the far shoulder. Both went maybe +/- 30ish yards. I found the penetration to be more than adequate.

 

[michael458]

I for one wouldn't hesitate to use for example the buffalo bore 430 super hard cast flat meplate solid at 1925 fps on buffalo or anything else big

I hope that you will rethink this before ever going to the field to put it to practice. Reason being, honestly it is a poor choice. I know, because I did it and it was a poor choice 23 years ago, and its still a poor choice, especially in light that we now have real Super Bullets for 45/70 being done solid copper and solid brass, that will not distort as easy as even super hard cast bullets. Cast Performance back in the day was and maybe still is about as hard as it gets. When these contact bone, or harder material, the big meplat simply just shears off, leaving you with a smaller pointy bullet. In softer tissue, such as behind the shoulder, no bone contact, it distorts really seriously, which is ok for transferring trauma, but not so good if you need deep penetration.

I have tested and worked with a large variety of different cast bullets over the years, and the story is always the same, really hard like the Cast Performance will shear, really soft will over expand, all will distort, and distortion obviously effects penetration.

My Choices for buffalo or any heavies in 45/70.........

Now if you wanted to add some trauma inflicting bullets to the mix, take a look at the North Forks available and designed specifically for the 45/70s.........These are what I call Expanding CPS.......Depth of penetration is Buffalo Capable............

Combine the North Forks with one of the above solids, and you have some really good Buffalo medicine.......

If I was still in the field, I would also take a very serious look at the Lehigh Extremes, both of these believe it or not, are also Buffalo Capable with the penetration they get. Not a replacement for the Flat Nose Solids, but a good first shot alternative, followed up with the solids.........

These bullets make a 45/70 into an entirely different cartridge than you might have read about and listened to what "The Experts" have to say..........

On my 2... I used a 325 grain brass solid that left my 18 inch barrel at something like 1900 fps -

Tundra, I am assuming you are shooting a 18 inch Marlin....... if so, they can handle 45000 PSI without issue, in the below work I use RL 7 and you can easy do 2050 to 2100 fps with the 325 without getting in any trouble. Do not exceed this load, as RL 7 is very inconsistent, and My RL 7 will not be YOUR RL 7, but if you can match velocity that I have listed, then your pressures will be very close if not the same..........

325 #13 Lever Solid
8/22/14	325 Lever Solid	54/RL 7	Fed 210	2067	2026	41	2047	43000 PSI
				44100	42000	2100	43000
12/12/20	325 Lever Solid	54/RL 7	Win	2104	2070	34	2087	X2-Test 2016 RL7 1# Unit

 

[Boone66]

I think some people are getting stopping rifles and killing rifles mixed up. Is a 45-70 a stopping rifle on bears, yes..is it a stopping rifle on cape Buffalo, no, or I wouldn't use it as such, just like a 9.3x74R is a stopping rifle on bears, but not cape Buffalo...both will kill them though, if properly loaded.

 

[Just a dude in BC]

I think some people are getting stopping rifles and killing rifles mixed up. Is a 45-70 a stopping rifle on bears, yes..is it a stopping rifle on cape Buffalo, no, or I wouldn't use it as such, just like a 9.3x74R is a stopping rifle on bears, but not cape Buffalo...both will kill them though, if properly loaded.

I don't think comparing a 9.3x74r and a 45-70 is proper, and the math tends to agree.
-On kinetic energy
The 9.3 is around 3400ft lbs.
The 45-70 is around 2800ft lbs.
-On sectional density
The 9.3 with a 285 runs around .305
The 45-70 with a 325 runs around .221
-On velocity
The 9.3 runs 2300-2400 fps
The 45-70 runs 1800-2000

All of this comes together to make the 9.3 penetrate much much deeper, and with a quality bullet is much more likely to make it through the boiler room. The wider, slower, and lower sectional density of the 45-70 is always going to limit is penetration compared to a 9.3 when using the same bullet type. And a smaller hole through the lungs is always better than a bigger hole that does not make it to the lungs.

I do agree on the notion that there is a difference between a killing and stopping rifle. But given the two choices: 45-70 vs 9.3x74 I would wager the majority of AFH members would vote for the 9.3

 

[dlmac]

.45-70 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1,189 to 3,489 depending on loading...

I don't understand why someone would want to travel 2,000 miles to shoot at something with a 150 year old cartridge, just because they can.

I think the animal deserves better.

I will wait the the 416 Creedmore to come out.

 

[HankBuck]

I have seen a lot of 9.3 questions.
And I have read about people using the 45-70 on buffalo.
I do know a man that used one on the water buff that are on hunting ranchers/ operation in fl. He use the 405 gr jsp. But he shot it in the head. So anything that would get through the skull would be enough on that shot.

Any thoughts on its use on the big bears and buffalo up?

I have used it on hogs no problem I would use it on black bear.
But o am not sure about anything bigger.

@Flbt - with full power ammo & hard cast bullets - as made by Buffalo Bore and others - you can get 350 - 400 gr bullets moving at 2000-2150 fps and 3600 ft lbs…Plenty for any Griz inside of 150 yrds and further if you are sighted in for that. I know they are used in Africa too but I did NOT use mine in Africa - even though my PH spoke highly of the .45-70 for Buffalo and said he had many killed with that caliber. It is a hard hitting round with large frontal mass but not a flat shooter. Some unfamiliar with the potential of the .45-70 because it is often used with only slower Cowboy Action power loads but Full Power loads make a world of difference —- and the recoil is substantial too because the Lever action rifles are light and KICK

 

[HankBuck]

.45-70 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1,189 to 3,489 depending on loading...

I don't understand why someone would want to travel 2,000 miles to shoot at something with a 150 year old cartridge, just because they can.

I think the animal deserves better.

@Safari Dave - lots of 100+ year old cartraige killing buff, ele etc.. (.470 NE, 416 Rigby etc..). Agree the Animal deserves a clean quick kill — but doesn’t get to pick the rifle.

 

[Flbt]

@Flbt - with full power ammo & hard cast bullets - as made by Buffalo Bore and others - you can get 350 - 400 gr bullets moving at 2000-2150 fps and 3600 ft lbs…Plenty for any Griz inside of 150 yrds and further if you are sighted in for that. I know they are used in Africa too but I did NOT use mine in Africa - even though my PH spoke highly of the .45-70 for Buffalo and said he had many killed with that caliber. It is a hard hitting round with large frontal mass but not a flat shooter. Some unfamiliar with the potential of the .45-70 because it is often used with only slower Cowboy Action power loads but Full Power loads make a world of difference —- and the recoil is substantial too because the Lever action rifles are light and KICK

I have had one for years
Just here there nothing big unless you go to a ranch .
I have use the 300gr hp and sp
The 405 gr jsp safe of any rifle
A few hardcast loads
And the 325 hornday for the most point

I was thinking about the extreme penatraters but have seen some interesting bullets on this. Thread .

 

[HankBuck]

I have had one for years
Just here there nothing big unless you go to a ranch .
I have use the 300gr hp and sp
The 405 gr jsp safe of any rifle
A few hardcast loads
And the 325 hornday for the most point

I was thinking about the extreme penatraters but have seen some interesting bullets on this. Thread .

@Flbt - I like the .45-70 Levolution .325 gr out of my Marlin 1895 for Deer at close range (up to 125 yds)..it makes a big hole & exits whitetail consistently. Also, recoil is moderate compared to anything from Buffalo Bore - which loosen my teeth. But for Bear over bait or treed by Hounds - Buffalo Bore 350 or 405 grain is devastating and exits from almost any angle - Texas Heart shot etc….

 

[Boone66]

I don't think comparing a 9.3x74r and a 45-70 is proper, and the math tends to agree.
-On kinetic energy
The 9.3 is around 3400ft lbs.
The 45-70 is around 2800ft lbs.
-On sectional density
The 9.3 with a 285 runs around .305
The 45-70 with a 325 runs around .221
-On velocity
The 9.3 runs 2300-2400 fps
The 45-70 runs 1800-2000

All of this comes together to make the 9.3 penetrate much much deeper, and with a quality bullet is much more likely to make it through the boiler room. The wider, slower, and lower sectional density of the 45-70 is always going to limit is penetration compared to a 9.3 when using the same bullet type. And a smaller hole through the lungs is always better than a bigger hole that does not make it to the lungs.

I do agree on the notion that there is a difference between a killing and stopping rifle. But given the two choices: 45-70 vs 9.3x74 I would wager the majority of AFH members would vote for the 9.3

The problem with the 45-70 is their are three power levels to it, black powder pressure, lever guns and ruger No1 and a few bolt actions. The latter sto ger actions with a 450 to 500gr bullet put it on the heels of a 458 win. Still not a stopping rifle though. I own both the 45-70 ruger in a no3 and a 9.3x74R in a drilling. They both kill above their weight class, but I would still only call them a bear or moose stopping rifle. That was the point I was trying to make, that their is a difference in killing and stopping. My comparison is that both are minimal for cape Buffalo and would need a PH with a good set under him and a stopping rifle, to back you up.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

The problem with the 45-70 is their are three power levels to it, black powder pressure, lever guns and ruger No1 and a few bolt actions. The latter sto ger actions with a 450 to 500gr bullet put it on the heels of a 458 win. Still not a stopping rifle though. I own both the 45-70 ruger in a no3 and a 9.3x74R in a drilling. They both kill above their weight class, but I would still only call them a bear or moose stopping rifle. That was the point I was trying to make, that their is a difference in killing and stopping. My comparison is that both are minimal for cape Buffalo and would need a PH with a good set under him and a stopping rifle, to back you up.

.... UNLESS... you kill the buff with the first shot.

 

[HankBuck]

The problem with the 45-70 is their are three power levels to it, black powder pressure, lever guns and ruger No1 and a few bolt actions. The latter sto ger actions with a 450 to 500gr bullet put it on the heels of a 458 win. Still not a stopping rifle though. I own both the 45-70 ruger in a no3 and a 9.3x74R in a drilling. They both kill above their weight class, but I would still only call them a bear or moose stopping rifle. That was the point I was trying to make, that their is a difference in killing and stopping. My comparison is that both are minimal for cape Buffalo and would need a PH with a good set under him and a stopping rifle, to back you up.

@Boone66 - since I did Not use my .45-70 on my Buff hunt - I have No experience…but my PH would disagree and I respected his opinion because he had direct experience and saw “many clients” (his description) kill buffalo with .45-70. My logic would include the fact that a 45 cal - 400 gr bullet (solid or Hardcast) @2000 fps is a STOPPER regardless of what gun fires it…and a Lever action is as reliable as a bolt action w/faster follow up shots. But, I liked any excuse to buy another rifle so I went with a .470 NE—— ended up I didn’t shoot that rifle as well as my Marlin1895 and wish I saved $14,000 and just took my .45-70

 

[Boone66]

@Boone66 - since I did Not use my .45-70 on my Buff hunt - I have No experience…but my PH would disagree and I respected his opinion because he had direct experience and saw “many clients” (his description) kill buffalo with .45-70. My logic would include the fact that a 45 cal - 400 gr bullet (solid or Hardcast) @2000 fps is a STOPPER regardless of what gun fires it…and a Lever action is as reliable as a bolt action w/faster follow up shots. But, I liked any excuse to buy another rifle so I went with a .470 NE—— ended up I didn’t shoot that rifle as well as my Marlin1895 and wish I saved $14,000 and just took my .45-70

im not saying they are unreliable, just the rugers no1 and no3 and bolt guns can take a higher pressure is all, so put them a step above the lever guns and several steps from a trap door, is all.