.416 Rigby & .458 Lott - Equal Recoil?

[Rem280]

I was reading an article on loads for .416 Rigby and the author made a comment that a .416 Rigby and .458 Lott had equal recoil, which surprised me.

I have never shot a .458 anything other my .45-70, but for those that have used both, is this even close to accurate? Yes, I can and have used the online recoil calculators, but have found them to not really be an accurate predictor of felt recoil which can even change with very minor changes in a load in the same rifle.

Just curious as I definitely do not need any more rifles. (Did I really say that? )

I can say stock design and recoil pad matter the most. My 375 HH w/out a muzzle brake is much more pleasant to shoot than the hateful Ruger in 375 Ruger w/ a brake.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Never shot a Lott but I do have a 9lbs 458 WinMag and say that standard 416 loads recoil about the same as the full power 458 loads....however my 416 weights 10.5lbs.

So maybe?

 

[Northern Shooter]

Recoil is somewhat different unless you play with it to make it similar. If you keep the gun weight the same at 10 lbs and run some standard loads, here are the numbers...

Here's a typical .416 Rigby load by the numbers...
View attachment 595836

And the 458 Lott at the same gun weight but with a typical Lott load...
View attachment 595837

Having said that, if you can handle one you can handle the other and it gets better if the gun fits you and has proper weight. Just for comparison, here's the numbers on a 10 lb 375 H&H with a typical 300 grain load...

View attachment 595838

So the 458 Lott in this comparison is about double the recoil of a 375 H&H of the same rifle weight...and the 416 Rigby is a little less than double the recoil of the 375. These are general comparisons to show the recoil energy. Much can be done to improve rifle fit, work on loads with less recoil, etc.

I always thought the standard load of the Lott was 500gr @ 2300 and the 416 Rigby 400gr @ 2400 fps?

You get a bit more of a contrast when you plug in those numbers.

67.6 ft-lbs vs 81.7ft-lbs.

What this tells me is that a 10lbs rifle doesn't appear to be heavy enough for either the 416 or 458 Lott.

 

[cajunchefray]

There is a discussion of that question in this article, scroll down quite a bit to the section on load data.

Ruger Model 77 Mk II Magnum Express Rifle - .416 Rigby

That is an excellent write up on improving the Ruger RSM ,416 Rigby. Thanks for adding to the knowledge base. Restocking, and better bolt handle is a nice move.
The reloading information, use of faster powders, with foam backer rod fillers, and reduced recoil, just works. It worked for me with the 450/400 Nitro.

 

[Tex .416]

You’re welcome.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

Recoil is somewhat different unless you play with it to make it similar. If you keep the gun weight the same at 10 lbs and run some standard loads, here are the numbers...

Here's a typical .416 Rigby load by the numbers...
View attachment 595836

And the 458 Lott at the same gun weight but with a typical Lott load...
View attachment 595837

Having said that, if you can handle one you can handle the other and it gets better if the gun fits you and has proper weight. Just for comparison, here's the numbers on a 10 lb 375 H&H with a typical 300 grain load...

View attachment 595838

So the 458 Lott in this comparison is about double the recoil of a 375 H&H of the same rifle weight...and the 416 Rigby is a little less than double the recoil of the 375. These are general comparisons to show the recoil energy. Much can be done to improve rifle fit, work on loads with less recoil, etc.

Where did you get a 91 grain powder charge with a 500 grain bullet from? I've reloaded hundreds of 458 Lott cartridges and have never seen a powder charge of 91 grains with a 500 grain bullet, even 84 grains of RL15 with a 500 grain bullet which is what I use is at the max.

Powder charge makes a big difference to recoil, that's why the 416 Rigby is up there with the Lott because of the big case filled up with big powder charges.

 

[Green Chile]

Thanks for catching that...meant to type 81 grains. We weren't giving load advice of course...just comparisons.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

Thanks for catching that...meant to type 81 grains. We weren't giving load advice of course...just comparisons.

Ahhh ok 81 grains makes much more sense, thanks.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Is 81 grains the standard powder charge for 458 Lott? If so, and if 100 grains is standard for the 416 Rigby, there is less than 10ft-lbs of felt recoil between the two out of the same weight rifle.

67.60 Vs. 76.69.

I assumed the Lott had leagues more recoil over the 416's.

Would be interesting to do the same calculations with the 416 RemMag and 416 Ruger but I'm not sure what their powder charges are.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

Is 81 grains the standard powder charge for 458 Lott? If so, and if 100 grains is standard for the 416 Rigby, there is less than 10ft-lbs of felt recoil between the two out of the same weight rifle.

67.60 Vs. 76.69.

I assumed the Lott had leagues more recoil over the 416's.

Would be interesting to do the same calculations with the 416 RemMag and 416 Ruger but I'm not sure what their powder charges are.

A Fairly standard powder charge for the 458 Lott is between 82 and 84 grains depending on the type of powder,

Standard powder charge for the 416 Rigby is around 95-100 grains, again depending on the type of powder.

 

[GuttormG]

It is all down to stock design and fit.
My 458Lott was a firm but not violent push; CZ602
The 416Rigby was tooth-loosening horrible...; Ruger no1

Difference; the CZ had a stock modified to suit in both length, height and with a slight cast-off. The stock of the Ruger was made by a cabinetmaker, straight and with sharp corners.

There was a weight difference but the real difference was not really the felt recoil but the way the gun twisted and hit my chin.

 

[Forrest Halley]

VERY interesting! I saved this to my favorites. Now I'm thinking (dangerous) modern powder made into the "spaghetti" sticks in 20,10, 5 and 1 grain increments. Cut them with a scissors to desired powder charge and put them into the cartridge case. No weighing of powder, funnels, jugs of powder or compression of a powder charge needed. They would come in a resealable package like spaghetti noodles. With modern Magnum primers it SHOULD work great. Somebody make it happen! LOL

Would work until @Bob Nelson 35Whelen got hungry and ate some...

It is all down to stock design and fit.
My 458Lott was a firm but not violent push; CZ602
The 416Rigby was tooth-loosening horrible...; Ruger no1

Difference; the CZ had a stock modified to suit in both length, height and with a slight cast-off. The stock of the Ruger was made by a cabinetmaker, straight and with sharp corners.

There was a weight difference but the real difference was not really the felt recoil but the way the gun twisted and hit my chin.

Ruger #1 is the culprit there. Apparently everything kicks harder in that rifle and even the .357 Magnum is something to be experienced.

 

[hoytcanon]

There was a weight difference but the real difference was not really the felt recoil but the way the gun twisted and hit my chin.

I'm betting you "felt" that...

 

[Tex .416]

Would work until @Bob Nelson 35Whelen got hungry and ate some...

Ruger #1 is the culprit there. Apparently everything kicks harder in that rifle and even the .357 Magnum is something to be experienced.

After two Ruger rifles, one in .375 Ruger, my thought is Ruger makes a nice rifle for the price point, but their stock design and hard rubber butt cap posing as a recoil pad are terrible and seem to amplify recoil. Why do they refuse to put on a real recoil pad? Adding a Model 70 safety would be nice too.

 

[hoytcanon]

After two Ruger rifles, one in .375 Ruger, my thought is Ruger makes a nice rifle for the price point, but their stock design and hard rubber butt cap posing as a recoil pad are terrible and seem to amplify recoil. Why do they refuse to put on a real recoil pad? Adding a Model 70 safety would be nice too.

After 200 Ruger rifles...

The stock design fits me to an absolute Tee... and I have never had an issue with the recoil pads, even in African and Alaskan .375 & .416 Ruger rifles, or RSM's in .416 Rifby, .458 WM & .458 Lott. I abhor big, thick, sloppy pads. Also, the 3-Position safety on the M77 Mark II and Hawkeye rifles is the cats azz...

 

[rookhawk]

I’ve never shot a Lott, but certainly a 458WM. I found the 458WM at 58lbs of recoil to feel exactly like the 60ish pounds of recoil from a 470NE. Both push you. My 416 Rigby was a very brisk, shocking recoil similar to the recoil impulse of a smallbore weatherby…but with a lot more energy.

Bottom line, I prefer the calibers that push the shooter versus those that punch. Seeing the data for 458 Lott versus 416 Rigby and calling them a draw, I’d rather shoot the Lott if it has the same tendencies as a 458WM.

 

[Tex .416]

After 200 Ruger rifles...

The stock design fits me to an absolute Tee... and I have never had an issue with the recoil pads, even in African and Alaskan .375 & .416 Ruger rifles, or RSM's in .416 Rifby, .458 WM & .458 Lott. I abhor big, thick, sloppy pads. Also, the 3-Position safety on the M77 Mark II and Hawkeye rifles is the cats azz...

And there is proof of how subjective some of the small details can be, which is why there are so many different choices. Glad they work well for you.

 

[hoytcanon]

I’ve never shot a Lott, but certainly a 458WM. I found the 458WM at 58lbs of recoil to feel exactly like the 60ish pounds of recoil from a 470NE. Both push you. My 416 Rigby was a very brisk, shocking recoil similar to the recoil impulse of a smallbore weatherby…but with a lot more energy.

Bottom line, I prefer the calibers that push the shooter versus those that punch. Seeing the data for 458 Lott versus 416 Rigby and calling them a draw, I’d rather shoot the Lott if it has the same tendencies as a 458WM.

I agree... recoil speed matters.

 

[hoytcanon]

And there is proof of how subjective some of the small details can be, which is why there are so many different choices. Glad they work well for you.

Yup

 

[GuttormG]

I'm betting you "felt" that...

yes, uncomfortable.
I did discuss with my gunsmith to do something with the stock; but after some thinking-what use do I have for a singelshot 416Rigby? Sold it and built a 404jeff instead